Charisms in Taoism

[Jhanananda]

Thank you for the clarification. Would Mahayana be separate from Ch'an/Zen? It seems like Ch'an came from an indian monk known as Bodhidharma. They claim that Bodhidharma is the 28th in patriarchical lineage from Gautama, from the arahant Maha Kassapa.

Originally, Mahayana was separate from Ch'an/Son/Zen.  And, yes, Bodhidharma is apparently the spiritual and intellectual source of Ch'an/Zen. 

Further, Bodhidharma may have been the real deal, because his story is he wandered all over India seeking a preceptor, but found himself rejected over and over again, then he went to Nilanda University, the famous Buddhist university, where he was also rejected.  He then went to China, where he was embraced as the only Indian Buddhist in the country, where Buddhism was having a major renaissance. 

After about a year in China Bodhidharma received an audience with the emperor.  The emperor recounted his generosity to Buddhism by building temples and robing monks and nuns, and financing the translation of Buddhist literature, etc.  He asked Bodhidharma if he had acquired any merit from the generosity.

Bodhidharma said, "No merit."

The emperor got angry and sent Bodhidharma off to a remote part of China, then he destroyed all of the temples he had built, defrocked all of the monks and nuns, then he had burned all of the books he had funded being published.

I guess it is better to tell donors that they have acquired great merit for financing a completely corrupt form of a religion, so that at least one genuine enlightened person will be supported in a sea of frauds.

Any way, supposedly Bodhidharma had only 2 students, and only one of which taught his model, which was about Ch'an, which was a Mandarin transliteration of the term 'jhana'.

Eventually, Ch'an/Son/Zen declined into pedophelia.  Then Pure Land Buddhism arose, and they killed all of the Ch'an/Son/Zen priests that they could find, and appropriated all of their temples.  Consequently today all Ch'an/Son/Zen temples and monasteries in Asia are actually Pure Land Buddhist.  So, Ch'an/Son/Zen Buddhism in Asia has been dead for centuries.

Yes, that's the part that confuses me, because firstly they say everything is composed of chi. And then they further divide it into all kinds of chi, like universal chi and human chi. Then within human chi there is original chi (from parents) and post-natal chi (from food and air). Then all the other concepts of jing (essence) and shen (spirit) comes in, it makes the whole thing even more complicated. It might be possible that their concept of 'shen' means the holy spirit, since it is translated as 'spirit'. They differentiate 'shen' from 'hun', which is translated as soul.

A complicated mystical system typically suggests corruption.

I think Jhananda was referring to (sakkaya-ditthi), the first fetter, which he interprets as being "narcissism, provincialism, or clan identification."  Anatta is the idea of non-self with reference to the Five Aggregates, which is one of the Three Marks of Existence, which are: impermanence, suffering, and non-self.

Jhananda, is this correct?

We had a discussion on the 1st fetter here: http://fruitofthecontemplativelife.org/forum/index.php/topic,682.0.html

Thank-you, Michel, for correcting the misconception.  sakkaya-ditthi is not anatta; however the non-dual experience of anatta leads to the dissolution of ego identification (sakkaya-ditthi).

[bodhimind]

I just found a very interesting reference to the "charisms" in a strange manner, in the text called "Taoist Yoga: Alchemy & Immortality", written by Charles Luk.

Taoism (not the mainstream kind) tends to have a lot of technical terms that can seem confusing, and it may seem that they receive the same results, just in a more roundabout manner. I found the following:

If the "spirit cavity" is held onto by sight (what they call spirit light), hearing (the inner sound), thoughts, etc, then "the vital force will develop of itself and beget true vitality which will be be used to produce the 'golden elixir'.  The spirit cavity is in the 'middle of the head'.

I believe "true vitality" refers to kundalini and 'golden elixir' refers to the Deathless. I also believe that the "spirit light" and "inner sound" refer directly to the charisms. It is interesting because this is the only Taoist text I have seen that talks about focusing on the charisms.

This Taoist text describes the "microcosmic orbit" as NOT the rising of kundalini. Therefore, it supports that kundalini does not move in a circle. Instead, they say that there is a central channel, probably what the Hindus refer to as the Sushumna Nadi.

The central channel is where the 3 dan tians are (probably the navel, heart and third-eye chakra), so it seems like it supports being the sushumna nadi where chakras lie on in Yoga.

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Another very interesting point here that I found...

It shows that in the lower dantian corresponds to the desire realm, the middle dantian corresponds to the form realm and the upper dantian corresponds to beyond form.

To me, this is strikingly similar to what Jhanananda talks about the chakras 4-7 being somewhat related to the jhanas. So in other words, in this interpretation, the navel chakra and below are that of "desire", what we wish to escape, and the heart chakra is that of form, where we cultivate the jhanas, and the third-eye chakra is that of beyond-form.

---

Another point which was interesting...

Simultaneously the original cavity of spirit (tsu ch'iao
between and behind the eyes) will emit bright moonlight,
and when the two lights unite, the positive spirit which is
serene and radiant in the upper tan t'ien (in the brain or
ni wan) will mingle with them to become a vast voidness.

Spirit which is now wholly positive can develop vitality with its six transcendental powers and achieves:
I, the stoppage of all drain (of generative and vital forces);
2, divine sight;
3, divine hearing;
4, knowledge of past lives;
5, understanding of other minds; and
6, the divine mirror.

In other words this is the union of his positive and negative
spirits which creates his true spirit which can transform his
bodily self into vapour which then gathers to take shape. This
is prenatal vitality in the prenatal state which in fact is wholly
positive vitality, or positive spirit created by the five kinds of
eyes (see below) and six transcendental powers, which is
visible to others, can speak to them, can pick up objects and
has the same features as his own body.

This sounds like the OBE.

---

I agree however, that the Taoists texts can be very "coded" and "metaphoric" as they tried to hide the teachings from the unvirtuous and unwise. It is also extremely cognitive, which is not for me. However, I found some of the parallels very interesting.

[Jhanananda]

I just found a very interesting reference to the "charisms" in a strange manner, in the text called "Taoist Yoga: Alchemy & Immortality", written by Charles Luk.

Taoism (not the mainstream kind) tends to have a lot of technical terms that can seem confusing, and it may seem that they receive the same results, just in a more roundabout manner. I found the following:

If the "spirit cavity" is held onto by sight (what they call spirit light), hearing (the inner sound), thoughts, etc, then "the vital force will develop of itself and beget true vitality which will be be used to produce the 'golden elixir'.  The spirit cavity is in the 'middle of the head'.

I believe "true vitality" refers to kundalini and 'golden elixir' refers to the Deathless. I also believe that the "spirit light" and "inner sound" refer directly to the charisms. It is interesting because this is the only Taoist text I have seen that talks about focusing on the charisms.

There is a distinct problem with studying mysticism is translation, and that is in most cases translators are not mystics, so they typically do not understand the language of mysticism in either the parent text, nor the destination language.  So, we often have resort to the context within which certain terms are being used.  I think Sam being Asian, and having studied Asian martial arts, and having been a participant in the GWV for over 10 years is most probably better at rendering these terms than I am.

So, the term "spirit cavity" as it is used elsewhere below suggests that it refers to the third eye, which is also known as the 7th chakra.  I do not happen to know what the Mandarin term is, but I will accept that it might be 'tsu ch'iao' as stated below.

For now I am going to take "spirit light" as the light charism.  Again, I do not happen to know what the Mandarin term is.

For now I am going to take "inner sound" as the sound charism.  Again, I do not happen to know what the Mandarin term is.

The term "vital force" is most probably the Mandarin term 'qi' which I take as the same as the early European mystical term 'virtue,' which would be the same as virya in Sanskrit and Pali, which was later defined as 'kundalini.'

This Taoist text describes the "microcosmic orbit" as NOT the rising of kundalini. Therefore, it supports that kundalini does not move in a circle. Instead, they say that there is a central channel, probably what the Hindus refer to as the Sushumna Nadi.

I agree, but I am willing to accept that the so called "microcosmic orbit" represents the flow of energy in the meridian system.

The central channel is where the 3 dan tians are (probably the navel, heart and third-eye chakra), so it seems like it supports being the sushumna nadi where chakras lie on in Yoga.

I will go with this, which means this source text only recognized 3 chakras.  It is worth pointing out that the chakra system does not seem to appear in the Pali Canon at all; whereas, the Yoga sutras refer to only 4 (I believe).

Another very interesting point here that I found...

It shows that in the lower dantian corresponds to the desire realm, the middle dantian corresponds to the form realm and the upper dantian corresponds to beyond form.

To me, this is strikingly similar to what Jhanananda talks about the chakras 4-7 being somewhat related to the jhanas. So in other words, in this interpretation, the navel chakra and below are that of "desire", what we wish to escape, and the heart chakra is that of form, where we cultivate the jhanas, and the third-eye chakra is that of beyond-form.

I will go with this.

Another point which was interesting...

Simultaneously the original cavity of spirit (tsu ch'iao
between and behind the eyes) will emit bright moonlight,
and when the two lights unite, the positive spirit which is
serene and radiant in the upper tan t'ien (in the brain or
ni wan) will mingle with them to become a vast voidness.

I will take this as the 4th stage of deep meditation experience, when the blue pearl is often observed.

Spirit which is now wholly positive can develop vitality with its six transcendental powers and achieves:
I, the stoppage of all drain (of generative and vital forces);
2, divine sight;
3, divine hearing;
4, knowledge of past lives;
5, understanding of other minds; and
6, the divine mirror.

This sounds mostly like a copy of the list of superior fruit (maha-phala) from the Pali canon.

In other words this is the union of his positive and negative
spirits which creates his true spirit which can transform his
bodily self into vapour which then gathers to take shape. This
is prenatal vitality in the prenatal state which in fact is wholly
positive vitality, or positive spirit created by the five kinds of
eyes (see below) and six transcendental powers, which is
visible to others, can speak to them, can pick up objects and
has the same features as his own body.

This sounds like the OBE.

Well, I do not buy the miraculous suggestion here of being visible with what appears to be a astral body.  So, I will have to take the original document referring to an astral body either from hearsay, or the translator botched the translation. So, I agree, it sounds like an OOBE.

I agree however, that the Taoists texts can be very "coded" and "metaphoric" as they tried to hide the teachings from the unvirtuous and unwise. It is also extremely cognitive, which is not for me. However, I found some of the parallels very interesting.

Just as with European occult literature, in most cases the authors of European occult literature were speaking in hearsay, with no direct experience of the mystical experience; so too much Asian literature can be the same case.  The other problem, as stated above, in most cases European, and American, translators were not mystics, so they did not understand the language of mysticism in either the source language or the destination language of a translation stream.

[bodhimind]

Just as with European occult literature, in most cases the authors of European occult literature were speaking in hearsay, with no direct experience of the mystical experience; so too much Asian literature can be the same case.  The other problem, as stated above, in most cases European, and American, translators were not mystics, so they did not understand the language of mysticism in either the source language or the destination language of a translation stream.

Thank you for your insight in this. They used the terms 'lead' and 'gold' to codify certain terms, just like occult literature, which makes it difficult to read, but the translator translated them as 'vital force' and 'spirit' respectively.

[Jhanananda]

Thank you for your insight in this. They used the terms 'lead' and 'gold' to codify certain terms, just like occult literature, which makes it difficult to read, but the translator translated them as 'vital force' and 'spirit' respectively.

European alchemy used the metaphor of turning the lead of the material personal nature into the gold of the spiritual, or purified, soul; however, that metaphor was too often mistaken for a chemical process by the naive.  This is likely to be true regarding Asian mystical literature and its metaphors.