deathless verses eternal life

[Jhanananda]

From other dialogs here, I thought it best to start a thread on a parallel concept between Buddhism's concept of the deathless verses Christianity's concept of eternal life' and from the perspective of a mystic, not from a devout follower of either religion.

In my experience of traveling out of body, through space and time I found, while the body is impermanent and will eventually die; nonetheless, that which can travel out of body, through space and time, lives on, and never dies.  This, I believe is what was referred to in the suttas as the deathless (amatta), and I also believe it is precisely the 'eternal life' (aiōnios αἰώνιος eternal, zōē ζωὴ life) that is referred to in the Gospels.

I have spent some time investigating the concept of the "deathless" as it appears in the suttas.  The deathless in Pali is 'amatta.'  The Buddha, upon his enlightenment said he had arrived to the deathless.  Now, the question is how did he know he had arrived at the deathless?

I took an Anthropologist's approach to this question, and asked how did the people at the time of Siddhartha Gautama consider death?  Death in most pre-Western thought oriented cultures considered death and dreaming essentially the same thing.  This means they believed when one dreamed one was in contact with the after-life. If the above was true then when Siddhartha Gautama had arrived at lucid dreaming throughout the night, as I do, then he believed that he had arrived at the deathless (amatta).

Now the concept of the deathless (amatta) has some significance to Christianity's use of the concept of "everlasting (eternal) life."  I believe both concepts are parallel, but it is difficult to argue it within a purely intellectual and/or Abrahamic scriptural context.  But, I believe Jesus the Nazarite was a contemplative who had become a mystic, in the same way Siddhartha Gautama was, and they had arrived at unbroken consciousness, as I have arrived at it in the same way, and they interpreted it within their culture and language.

In Christianity, the term eternal life traditionally refers to continued life after death, as outlined in Christian eschatology. The Apostles' Creed testifies: "I believe... the resurrection of the body, and life everlasting." In this view, eternal life commences after the second coming of Jesus and the resurrection of the dead, although in the New Testament's Johannine literature there are references to eternal life commencing in the earthly life of the believer, possibly indicating an inaugurated eschatology.

16 For God so loved the world that he gave his chosen Son, that whoever believes (πιστεύων) in him shall not perish but have eternal life (ζωὴν αἰώνιον).

I do not believe that John 3:16 is just about believing some belief system, but accepting the Nazarite lifestyle and living it.  And, the Nazarite lifestyle is a dedicated contemplative lifestyle.

So, this is an attempt to answer your questions by taking them up a notch.  An arahat is one who has become lucid 24-7 through leading a dedicated contemplative lifestyle.  Thus, they can come and go from the material plane at will, nonetheless, all physical bodies decay and die.  The physical body is just a temporary vehicle, which the arahat has no attachment for.  It is just a vehicle for him/her to help a few of the suffering beings on this plane to move beyond this plane to higher planes of existence.

The arahat has no identity; therefore, they do not exist in the sense that others think in terms of existence.

Sources for the Deathless (Amata):
Deathless, door to (Amatassa dvara)   DN: 14.3.7; 18.27; n 535
   MN: 26.12; 26.18; 26.20f; 52.15; 64.9ff; 106.13; n. 1023
   SN: 216; 232-233; 268; 290; 432 n. 368; 461-62 n. 510; 464-65 n 522; 1528; 1549-50; 1658; 1660; 1690; 1699

Ariyapariyesana Sutta (MN: 26.12; 26.18; 26.20f)
The Noble Search
“And, what is the noble search?  Here someone being subject to birth seeks the unborn supreme security from bondage, Nibbana; being subject to aging, having understood the danger in what is subject to ageing, he seeks the unageing supreme security from bondage, Nibbana; being subject to sickness, having understood the danger in what is subject to sickness, he seeks the unailing supreme security from bondage, Nibbana; being subject to death, having understood the danger in what is subject to death, he seeks the deathless supreme security from bondage, Nibbana; being subject to sorrow, having understood the danger in being subject to sorrow, he seeks the sorrowless supreme security from bondage, Nibbana; being subject to defilements (corruption), having understood the danger in what is subject to defilement, he seeks the undefiled supreme security from bondage, Nibbana.  This is the noble search.” Having “…attained the undefiled supreme security from bondage, Nibbana,” the Buddha said, “the knowledge and vision arose in me: ‘My deliverance is unshakeable; this is my last birth; now there is no renewal of being.’”

[Alexander]

Thanks, Jhanananda, for returning to this topic. It is the heaviest of them all. But, it is the reason we embark on the holy life. Can we live on after death? Is immortality possible? Is there a spiritual realm and is it as real, if not more real, than this world? We find that in both Christianity and Buddhism, the answer to those questions is "yes."

[Jhanananda]

You are welcome, Alexander.

Can we live on after death? Is immortality possible? Is there a spiritual realm and is it as real, if not more real, than this world? We find that in both Christianity and Buddhism, the answer to those questions is "yes."

It became a yes for me when I took my first OOBE.  So, I expect it would be a yes for everyone who has ever had an OOBE.

[jay.validus]

I sometimes wonder, what is the point?  What is the purpose of being here and knowing where we came from?  What is the purpose of being here and not knowing where we came from?  What if I really do not know?
It is not that I am scared to die.  I am scared that without purpose my life will become hollow, down to the depths of my psyche, deep in the black.  That nothingness will then come out and consume my life, like a parasite.  I am only scared because I had that experience. 
Upon thinking, I wonder if my problem is not my experience with the black and nothingness, but how I am defining the experience.  It is only impermanent, and in that sense it does not scare me.  However, I have this notion that enlightenment can only be possible living with the hollow feeling of nothingness.  With nothingness, how can I have any attachment?  How can I suffer if I do not even allow it to come out?
Writing it down, it sounds pretty short-sighted, but that is what I seemingly believe.  I wonder why I think this?  Do I feel like I do not deserve to be happy?  Is the absence of happiness enlightenment?  Existence...

Interesting how these are the thoughts that arise when you talk about deathless/eternal life.

[Jhanananda]

I sometimes wonder, what is the point?  What is the purpose of being here and knowing where we came from?  What is the purpose of being here and not knowing where we came from?  What if I really do not know?

My father assumed, since he was a genius, but had no recollection of his past lifetimes, then reincarnation was a flawed belief system.  He also never recalled his dreams, so he assumed he did not dream.  My father; however, lived a life without introspection, so, according to Socrates, he lived a useless life.   In my experience most people never reflect deeply, which I believe explains why all mainstream religions are corrupt.

Sleep researchers say that everyone whom they have tested has dreams, so we can conclude those who do not live a reflective life are not likely to develop sufficient lucidity in the sleep state to ever recall a dream, let alone recall a previous lifetime.

So, the point of life, as I see it, is to become self-aware.  Most people are not self-aware, so they go through life inflicting pain on others, and never even seeing how their lifestyle produces suffering, so they are not likely to ever be self-aware enough to develop any of the superior fruit of spiritual attainment.

It is not that I am scared to die.  I am scared that without purpose my life will become hollow, down to the depths of my psyche, deep in the black.  That nothingness will then come out and consume my life, like a parasite.  I am only scared because I had that experience. 
Upon thinking, I wonder if my problem is not my experience with the black and nothingness, but how I am defining the experience.  It is only impermanent, and in that sense it does not scare me.  However, I have this notion that enlightenment can only be possible living with the hollow feeling of nothingness.  With nothingness, how can I have any attachment?  How can I suffer if I do not even allow it to come out?
Writing it down, it sounds pretty short-sighted, but that is what I seemingly believe.  I wonder why I think this?  Do I feel like I do not deserve to be happy?  Is the absence of happiness enlightenment?  Existence...

Interesting how these are the thoughts that arise when you talk about deathless/eternal life.

As long as one does not develop self-awareness one will always be afraid of the dark, and death.  My father lived a life of selfishness, and sensuality, and atheism. Toward the end of his life he was so afraid of death that he converted to born-again Chrisitanity, which is clearly a very superficial way to lead one's life.

When one develops self-awareness to the depths of the unconscious one gains the awareness that one has lived many lifetimes.  This person will welcome death, and shed this body gladly to enter the immaterial domains, where there are heavenly abodes awaiting one with deep self-awareness.

[bodhimind]

I suddenly had a thought about this... And I wonder, does Nibbana correspond to emptiness (Sunyata in Mahayana), nothingness (wu in Taoism) and "That Which Is Not" (Shiva in hinduism)?

[Jhanananda]

I suddenly had a thought about this... And I wonder, does Nibbana correspond to emptiness (Sunyata in Mahayana), nothingness (wu in Taoism) and "That Which Is Not" (Shiva in hinduism)?

No, Nibbana, is beyond the level of 'emptiness' (Sunyata in Mahayana), because all it is in that religion is the stilling of the mind, and most of us here know there is far more available at greater depth than Mahayana Buddhism ever discovered.

I am not sure what the nothingness (wu in Taoism) is.  I suppose it is similar to the Sunyata of Mahayana Buddhism, which would be the stilling of the mind, and/or the non-dual experience that tends to arise from stilling the mind, which is just the second jhana.  Do keep in mind there are 6 more levels of depth that most Buddhist priests in the last 2,000 years have not experienced.