Author Topic: The meaning of Ayatana  (Read 4500 times)

bodhimind

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The meaning of Ayatana
« on: November 08, 2015, 05:57:47 PM »
From the other threads I read, I gather that "ayatana" is often used together with "ayatana-samadhi", which means the absorption state related to "ayatana" (domain?).

MN26 is quoted on this page:

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"Then again (Puna ca paraü) seekers of Buddhahood (bhikkhave bhikkhu), with complete (Sabbaso) transcendence of perceptions of the physical domain (råpasaññànaü), passing beyond (samatikkama) the rapacious material world (pañighasaññànaü), extinguishing (atthagamà) the variety of sensory perceptions (nànattasaññànaü), without the endless pull of mental activity (amanasikàrà ananto àkàsoti), one travels near (upasampajja viharati) the astral plane (àkàsànañcàyatanaü). It is said (vuccati) this seeker of Buddhahood (bhikkhave bhikkhu) has blinded ('andhamakàsi) Mara (màraü). Trackless (apadaü) he has destroyed (vadhitvà) Mara's vision (màracakkhuü). He has disappeared from (adassanaü) and surpassed (gato) the Evil One (pàpimato).

Something interesting, I see that "akasa" has been equated with "astral"... Does this mean that akasa = astral, and is considered one of the five elements (fire, air, water, wind, akasa)?

And also another quote from another thread:

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Sixth Samadhi or Second Arupa Samadhi
the domain of volition, Vinnananaacayatana
"Then again (Puna ca paraü) seekers of Buddhahood (bhikkhave bhikkhu), with completely (Sabbaso) passing beyond (samatikkama) the astral plane (àkàsànañcàyatanaü), approaching (upasampajja) unbound (anantaü) volition (viññàõanti), one traverses (viharati) the domain of volition (viññàõañcàyatanaü). It is said (vuccati) this seeker of Buddhahood (bhikkhave bhikkhu) has blinded ('andhamakàsi) Mara (màraü). Trackless (apadaü) he has destroyed (vadhitvà) Mara's vision (màracakkhuü). He has disappeared from (adassanaü) and surpassed (gato) the Evil One (pàpimato).

Seventh Samadhi or Third Arupa Samadhi
domain of no evil, Akincannayatana
"Then again (Puna ca paraü) seekers of Buddhahood (bhikkhave bhikkhu), completely (Sabbaso) passing beyond (samatikkama) the domain of volition (viññàõañcàyatanaü) free of evil (natthi kiñcãti) one traverses (viharati) the domain of no evil (àkiñcaññàyatanaü). It is said (vuccati) this seeker of Buddhahood (bhikkhave bhikkhu) has blinded ('andhamakàsi) Mara (màraü). Trackless (apadaü) he has destroyed (vadhitvà) Mara's vision (màracakkhuü). He has disappeared from (adassanaü) and surpassed (gato) the Evil One (pàpimato).

Eighth Samadhi or Fourth Arupa Samadhi
Domain of neither-perception-nor-non-perception, Nevasannanasannnayatana
"Then again (Puna ca paraü) seekers of Buddhahood (bhikkhave bhikkhu), completely (Sabbaso) passing beyond (samatikkama) the domain of no evil (àkiñcaññàyatanaü) near to (upasampajja) limitless (anantaü) volition (viññàõanti) one traverses (viharati) the domain of neither-perception-nor-non-perception (nevasaññànàsaññàyatanaü). It is said (vuccati) this seeker of Buddhahood (bhikkhave bhikkhu) has blinded ('andhamakàsi) Mara (màraü). Trackless (apadaü) he has destroyed (vadhitvà) Mara's vision (màracakkhuü). He has disappeared from (adassanaü) and surpassed (gato) the Evil One (pàpimato).

Liberation (nirodha) through Samadhi
Cessation, saññá-vedayita-nirodha, Nibanna
"Then again (Puna ca paraü) seekers of Buddhahood (bhikkhave bhikkhu), completely (Sabbaso) passing beyond the domain of neither-perception-nor-non-perception (nevasaññànàsaññàyatanaü) to complete liberation from sensory perception (saññàvedayitanirodhaü), residing (viharati) within wisdom, having understood his taints through investigation (upasampajja). It is said (vuccati) this seeker of Buddhahood (bhikkhave bhikkhu) has blinded ('andhamakàsi) Mara (màraü). Trackless (apadaü) he has destroyed (vadhitvà) Mara's vision (màracakkhuü). He has disappeared from (adassanaü) and surpassed (gato) the Evil One (pàpimato). Having crossed over, he is unattached in the world. Carefree he walks, carefree he stands, carefree he sits, carefree he lies down. Why is that? Because he has gone beyond the Evil One's range."

From what I got on this page, ayatana is translated as:

Quote
1.stretch,extent,reach,compass,region; sphere,locus,place,spot; position,occasion

2.exertion,doing,working,practice,performance

3.  sphere of perception or sense in general,object of thought,sense-organ & object; relation,order.

Also...

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“āyatana cannot be rendered by a single English word to cover both sense-organs (the mind being regarded as 6th sense) and sense objects"

These āyatanāni (relations,functions,reciprocalities) are thus divided into two groups,inner (ajjhattikāni) and outer (bāhirāni),and comprise the foll.:
(a) ajjhatt°:
1.cakkhu eye,
2.sota ear,
3.ghāna nose,
4.jivhā tongue,
5.kāya body,
6.mano mind;

(b) bāh°:
1.rūpa visible object,
2.sadda sound,
3.gandha odour,
4.rasa taste,
5.phoṭṭhabba tangible object,
6.dhamma cognizable object

I also notice that "salayatana" is translated as six sense spheres of contact.

Therefore I'm wondering...

Are the OOBEs just a "sphere" within the mind, just like the 6 sense-spheres? I know the Visuddhimagga might have something on this, but I'd love to know the GWV's understanding of this instead...

Jhanananda said that waking and dreaming do not seem to differ, and that OBE is like a dream within a dream (reminds me of the layered-dream concept within the movie, Inception.... or how Chuang Tze dreamt that he was a butterfly).

---

Chuang-Tze, a Taoist:

Quote
"Once upon a time, Zhuang Zhou dreamed he was a butterfly, a butterfly flitting about happily enjoying himself. He did not know that he was Zhou. Suddenly he awoke, and was palpably Zhou. He did not know whether he was Zhou, who had dreamed of being a butterfly, or a butterfly dreaming that he was Zhou. Now, there must be a difference between Zhou and the butterfly. This is called the transformation of things."
« Last Edit: November 08, 2015, 06:02:55 PM by bodhimind »

Jhanananda

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Re: The meaning of Ayatana
« Reply #1 on: November 09, 2015, 01:50:04 AM »
Very good, and thorough research, bodhimind.  I do not happen to believe that most translators of Pali into English have a very good handle on translating the Pali term 'ayatana.'  I am going to stick with 'domain' as the best general translation.  So, there are 4 immaterial domains described in the suttas that encompass the whole of the immaterial domains, which are infinite, but have definite layers to them.

We can also use the term domain to refer to the 5 sense domains, such as: visual domain, auditory domain, tactile domain, olfactory domain, kinesthetic domain, etc.

So, the àkàsànañcàyatanaü is the akashic domain.  When we see how the term akasha is used in Indic literature, then the English term 'astral plane' fits well.  We could also use the term 'heaven.' So, we can translate the Pali term 'ayatana' as 'plane' however, 'plane' does not fit the use in the sensory domains, as above, and heaven is too limiting, but usable.
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bodhimind

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Re: The meaning of Ayatana
« Reply #2 on: November 09, 2015, 07:32:02 AM »
Very good, and thorough research, bodhimind.  I do not happen to believe that most translators of Pali into English have a very good handle on translating the Pali term 'ayatana.'  I am going to stick with 'domain' as the best general translation.  So, there are 4 immaterial domains described in the suttas that encompass the whole of the immaterial domains, which are infinite, but have definite layers to them.

We can also use the term domain to refer to the 5 sense domains, such as: visual domain, auditory domain, tactile domain, olfactory domain, kinesthetic domain, etc.

So, the àkàsànañcàyatanaü is the akashic domain.  When we see how the term akasha is used in Indic literature, then the English term 'astral plane' fits well.  We could also use the term 'heaven.' So, we can translate the Pali term 'ayatana' as 'plane' however, 'plane' does not fit the use in the sensory domains, as above, and heaven is too limiting, but usable.

Thank you for the clarification.

Does this mean that even the immaterial ayatanas are within the mind? I am trying to understand how the ayatana used in sense-domain is also used in the same way for the arupa-ayatanas. Why then is there no rupa-ayatana, or are the sense-domains already comprising this?

So when in deep meditation, if I feel like I am free of the body and "boundless", that would correspond to fourth jhana... and then the immaterial ayatanas are just a larger scope of domains perceived, away from the sensory ayatanas? Just a little confused here...

Jhanananda

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Re: The meaning of Ayatana
« Reply #3 on: November 09, 2015, 02:13:15 PM »
Thank you for the clarification.

Does this mean that even the immaterial ayatanas are within the mind?

It depends upon how you define the term 'mind.'  I define the term 'mind' as the cognitive processes, especially the thought processes.  So, we could call it a domain (ayatana), and it would fit into the 5 aggregates this way.  However, the 4 immaterial domains, which I often call the "four  ayatanas" I refer to the four immaterial domains which one can enter and traverse via the OOBE.  So, not I do not see how the immaterial ayatanas are within the mind.

I am trying to understand how the ayatana used in sense-domain is also used in the same way for the arupa-ayatanas. Why then is there no rupa-ayatana, or are the sense-domains already comprising this?

In translation we have to begin with realizing English is not constructed the same way that the various Asian languages are constructed, so to render a readable translation in English of Asian languages we often have to resort to a free translation that expresses the intent of the Asian phrase that we are translating, or otherwise a literal translation often ends up incomprehensible, which in part explains why so many English translations of Asian literature are so confusing to westerners.  This, by the way, is also true for the translation of the Bible.

So, the Pali term 'rupa' means: physical, material, concrete; whereas, the Pali term 'arupa' means: non-physical, immaterial, abstract.  So, if we are going to stick to the Pali language, then the rupa-ayatanas are the sensory domains.  If we are going to discuss the 8 stages of samadhi, then the rupa-ayatanas are the four jhanas, but that would be incorrect use of the Pali language, because we have the Pali term 'jhana.'

So when in deep meditation, if I feel like I am free of the body and "boundless", that would correspond to fourth jhana... and then the immaterial ayatanas are just a larger scope of domains perceived, away from the sensory ayatanas? Just a little confused here...
[/quote]

Well, the 4th jhana happens to be a transition phase between the material domains and the immaterial domains.  So, the fourth jhana is characterized by a sense of time, space and a body, but one feels as if the body is weightless, and free of pain and discomfort.

When one has no awareness of the external world, nor a body, then one is likely to have entered the immaterial domains (arupa-ayatanas).  Knowing which arupa-ayatana is in depends upon what one perceives.  If one has clearly left he physical body, but feels as though they still have a body, though light, and finds one can walk through walls, and even fly bird-like through the air, then this is the first arupa-ayatana, which is called the àkàsànañcàyatanaü in the Pali canon.

Here is where the Pali language gets difficult to render into English, because the Pali terms do not seem to completely parallel the experience of being out-of-body.  I suspect that they are terms that have already been in use for some time, when Siddhartha Gautama began to express his enlightenment.  These terms also seem to refer to heavenly (akashic) planes, for which there was a rich folklore at the time of Siddhartha Gautama.  To understand them one would have to search the suttas for descriptions of the 32 planes of existence.  So, at this point I can only speak from my experience of the immaterial domains, which may, or may not parallel the experience of Siddhartha Gautama.

So, I find the next phase of the OOBE experience occurs when one leaves the earth plane while out-of-body, and begins to travel in space.  Here one finds a domain that is quite a bit like how Christianity defines heaven, in which one interacts with beings who represent the planets, stars and galaxies, and the various disembodied beings who live in those domains.

After this one moves to a larger frame of reference in which one observes the totality of the heavenly domains, galaxy-like.  Finally one experiences the entire galaxy of the heavenly domains as the self, in which all of the beings of all of the planes are just cells of one's "organism."

So, I see you trying to figure out where in the pantheon of the experience of deep meditation your experience lies.  Perhaps some part of this description fits your experience.  If not, then we can discuss your experience further, document it, and see if some recognizes the domain that you were in, so that we can build a larger model that fits the entirety of the subjective experience of deep meditation.
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bodhimind

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Re: The meaning of Ayatana
« Reply #4 on: November 10, 2015, 01:46:17 PM »
Thank you for the clarification, it helped me sort the classifications out in my head.

Also, thank you to the other mystic who emailed me.