Author Topic: A question and muse on anapanasati  (Read 3836 times)

WilliamW

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A question and muse on anapanasati
« on: April 14, 2016, 06:06:18 AM »
Most of the instructions and experiences related to this practice seem to agree fairly well on how it is to be done. Further, from those readings, and a brief e-mail exchange with Jhanananda, and my experience so far, I believe my practice is beneficial with my current understanding.

However, more understanding is always good! Going to the original instructions in the suttas, we come across the following formulations:

  • "One trains oneself to breathe in calming bodily agitation, and to breathe out calming bodily agitation."
  • "One trains oneself to breathe in steadying the mind, and to breathe out steadying the mind."
  • "One trains oneself to breathe in (mindful of) inconstancy, and to breathe out focusing on inconstancy."

And so forth, with several different things related to breathing in or out. These are usually not explicitly mentioned in commentaries or guides. In truth, they have always confused me:

What, exactly, do these entail? Are these things to actively/consciously attempt when practicing anapanasati, or are these things that happen while practicing, or something between the two?

Regarding the list itself (sensitive, calming, steadying, releasing, etc), is it supposed to be simultaneous, or sequential?

***

I lean toward something like the "happen" (vs "active intention") interpretation, from my limited experience, for gently focusing upon the breath seems to lead naturally toward steadying and calming the mind, relaxing the body, etc.; and I cannot quite understand how one sets one's mind on the entrance of the breath and splits the attention toward these other goals. It seems counter-productive to developing concentration or one-pointedness.

On the other hand, the latter bits seem to indicate practices in the form of "one breathes in and out focused on [a series of topics, e.g. impermanence]"; this might suggest that all of the practices are meant to focus on topics along with, or even in place of, the breath (unless I have entirely misinterpreted, and it is not unlikely!).

Similarly, Bhante Vimalaramsi seems to think that one is supposed to relax and "tranquilize" the body on the in and out breaths, as, apparently(?), an element that needs to be consciously attended to, rather than as a direct consequence of focusing on the breath itself.

So... I'm not sure! Any thoughts on this matter are appreciated.
« Last Edit: April 14, 2016, 06:18:43 AM by WilliamW »

Jhanananda

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Re: A question and muse on anapanasati
« Reply #1 on: April 14, 2016, 12:50:08 PM »
Most of the instructions and experiences related to this practice seem to agree fairly well on how it is to be done. Further, from those readings, and a brief e-mail exchange with Jhanananda, and my experience so far, I believe my practice is beneficial with my current understanding.

However, more understanding is always good! Going to the original instructions in the suttas, we come across the following formulations:

  • "One trains oneself to breathe in calming bodily agitation, and to breathe out calming bodily agitation."
  • "One trains oneself to breathe in steadying the mind, and to breathe out steadying the mind."
Welcome, WilliamW, to the forum, and tank-you for posting your comments.

I agree with the above instructions as translated from the Pali Canon, because I have found that a practice of meditation that leads to a calm mind, and a still and relaxed body leads to deeper meditation.

  • "One trains oneself to breathe in (mindful of) inconstancy, and to breathe out focusing on inconstancy."
However, I am not comfortable with 'inconstancy' here.  I am not sure which sutta you are quoting from, or whose translation.  As you may know I have spent a great deal of time and effort in a practice of meditation that leads to depth, as well as investigating the Pali canon in its original language, and how it is commonly translated; and I have found that there are so many gross errors in its more popular translations and interpretations that it has led me to believe that most of the translators, and Buddhist monks never spent any time or effort at all in a practice of meditation that leads to depth, nor spent any time or effort investigating the Pali canon in its original language, and how it is commonly translated.  So, let us know which sutta you are quoting, and which translation, then we can dig deeper into what the sutta actually says, and not what some fraud who happens to prance around in the robes pretending to be a follower of Siddhartha Gautama's Noble Eightfold Path. 

I suspect that this translation is from Thansaro and he is referring to 'anicca,' which is more commonly translated as 'impermanence.'  If so, then I am more comfortable with 'impermanence' as a translation for 'anicca,' than I am with 'inconstancy,' because there simply is no need to reinvent the wheel here, and accept the common translation. 

Whereas, Thansaro tends to go too far in his need to reinvent the wheel of translation while not adding anything substantive to its understanding in English; but only tends to confuse its understanding to the English speaking people who are interested in studying the dhamma, and wish to have a clear translation to work from.

Since you posted the link, then, I recognize it is indeed my translation, which I most probably extracted from numerous sources and provisionally accepted some translated terms that were less contentious for me at the time.  I should examine which specific term is being translated as 'inconstancy,' and if it is indeed anicca, then correct that translation to 'impermanence.'

And so forth, with several different things related to breathing in or out. These are usually not explicitly mentioned in commentaries or guides. In truth, they have always confused me:

What, exactly, do these entail? Are these things to actively/consciously attempt when practicing anapanasati, or are these things that happen while practicing, or something between the two?

Since no contemplative school today in any country seems to have a clear understanding of the superior fruit of the contemplative life, and it seems most people who claim to practice meditation get next to nothing out of it more than if one were to simply take a nap, then I have had to accept that few teachers of meditation understand the value of deep meditation, so their instructions are almost always deeply flawed.

The most common flaw that I see in the teaching of meditation today, is that teaching tends to be far too cognitive.  For instance, you mentioned how some teachers instruct meditation practitioners to attend much too mentally to their meditation object.  One who has too tight a grip upon the meditation object is likely to never experience depth in meditation. 

For success in the practice of meditation one has realize that the meditation object is not intended to be a destination, but a vehicle to a destination.  The destination here is a metaphor for depth in meditation, which is experienced as an altered state of consciousness.

Regarding the list itself (sensitive, calming, steadying, releasing, etc), is it supposed to be simultaneous, or sequential?

This is a good question.  My intention was not to imply that this is a sequential sequence, but something one endeavors to do, while practicing meditation.  However, it just so happens that it is indeed sequential, but meant to be repeated over and over again, until the altered state of consciousness that is associated with depth in meditation arises, then one simply attends to the self-arising phenomena of the altered state of consciousness that is associated with depth in meditation, then one attends to all of this phenomena, while still endeavoring to maintain sensitivity, calmness, steadiness, and release from the activities of the mind.

I lean toward something like the "happen" (vs "active intention") interpretation, from my limited experience, for gently focusing upon the breath seems to lead naturally toward steadying and calming the mind, relaxing the body, etc.; and I cannot quite understand how one sets one's mind on the entrance of the breath and splits the attention toward these other goals. It seems counter-productive to developing concentration or one-pointedness.

This is why you ended up here, because you have enough insight, or critical thinking skill to understand what is needed; whereas, famous meditation teachers all over the world do not seem to have what it takes to understand the correct practice of meditation, because none of them have demonstrated that they understand depth in meditation, and the superior fruit that depth in meditation leads to.

On the other hand, the latter bits seem to indicate practices in the form of "one breathes in and out focused on [a series of topics, e.g. impermanence]"; this might suggest that all of the practices are meant to focus on topics along with, or even in place of, the breath (unless I have entirely misinterpreted, and it is not unlikely!).

What I get from the 4 sati suttas is to recognize that one need not waste vast amounts of time exploring all of the apparent exercises that those suttas seem to propose; but consider that if one technique does not work, then try another. 

Reflecting upon concepts such as: Loving Kindness (metta)... Compassion (Karuna)...Sympathetic Joy (Mudita)...Equanimity (Upekkha)...[the perception of the] foulness [of the body]... the perception of inconstancy (impermanence (anicca)), can lead to success in depth for some, but most just get to depth via bare attention upon the breath.  If so, then good, now just saturate one's self in that depth, and ride it to the greatest depth one can, and forget about all of the other methods and techniques.

Similarly, Bhante Vimalaramsi seems to think that one is supposed to relax and "tranquilize" the body on the in and out breaths, as, apparently(?), an element that needs to be consciously attended to, rather than as a direct consequence of focusing on the breath itself.

So... I'm not sure! Any thoughts on this matter are appreciated.

I agree with Vimalaramsi on few things; however, I happen to agree with him upon the significance of developing facility with deep relaxation as a core skill to develop for acquiring access to depth in meditation.

I look forward to reading more of what you have to say about the practice of deep meditation and its superior fruit.
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WilliamW

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Re: A question and muse on anapanasati
« Reply #2 on: April 16, 2016, 12:39:02 AM »
(I have divided this reply into two parts, for ease of reading.)
(1. Commentary)


Whereas, Thansaro tends to go too far in his need to reinvent the wheel of translation while not adding anything substantive to its understanding in English; but only tends to confuse its understanding to the English speaking people who are interested in studying the dhamma, and wish to have a clear translation to work from.

Since you posted the link, then, I recognize it is indeed my translation, which I most probably extracted from numerous sources and provisionally accepted some translated terms that were less contentious for me at the time.  I should examine which specific term is being translated as 'inconstancy,' and if it is indeed anicca, then correct that translation to 'impermanence.'
I refer to your translations over others whenever possible, in fact. Your writings have confirmed for me what I had slowly begun to recognize on my own -- that many Buddhist teachers and translators don't actually have much experience with the path they purport to promulgate. If one is looking for advice or instruction on attaining deep meditative states and really experiencing what the Buddha experienced, it helps to get information from someone else who has actually done so!

As I recall from your commentary on the Dhammapada, Thanissaro indeed has a habit of confusing the issue with neologisms (neo- in the context of Buddhism, at least). I wouldn't be surprised if that particular section had been extracted from Thanissaro.

Since no contemplative school today in any country seems to have a clear understanding of the superior fruit of the contemplative life, and it seems most people who claim to practice meditation get next to nothing out of it more than if one were to simply take a nap, then I have had to accept that few teachers of meditation understand the value of deep meditation, so their instructions are almost always deeply flawed.

The most common flaw that I see in the teaching of meditation today, is that teaching tends to be far too cognitive.  For instance, you mentioned how some teachers instruct meditation practitioners to attend much too mentally to their meditation object.  One who has too tight a grip upon the meditation object is likely to never experience depth in meditation.
I can only agree. It's a shame, and one reason I'm so glad the information on GWV is out there; I think a lot of people become misled and then never seek any farther -- or even abandon their (unfortunate, juiceless) practice altogether.

I try not to get angry online, and usually don't struggle with it, but seeing how some supposed authorities go on to dilute the deep and insightful teachings of meditative absorption with inane platitudes and milquetoast "art of living" tropes... well, I can still be a bit appalled by it. I'm in the process of writing a blog post about this, actually.

This is why you ended up here, because you have enough insight, or critical thinking skill to understand what is needed; whereas, famous meditation teachers all over the world do not seem to have what it takes to understand the correct practice of meditation, because none of them have demonstrated that they understand depth in meditation, and the superior fruit that depth in meditation leads to.

I look forward to reading more of what you have to say about the practice of deep meditation and its superior fruit.
Thank you for your kind words! I have had to wonder why it seems so difficult for some to understand the clear heart of Buddhist/meditation practice, while it is so evident to us. (The traditional explanation might be that we have good karma stored up... but critical thinking is a likelier one, I think.)

As I mentioned in our e-mails, I too have witnessed famous "masters" proclaim that meditation is just a way to be a nicer person, or to relax a bit; as you said, some seem to think it's just another type of nap. It beggars belief that someone can show up with the message that attainment in meditation is important, powerful, and possible... and have people ignore or even become angry about it, as if they prefer to believe that these things are impossible or only attainable in another life!

 I believe you have written about this as well, but as mentioned, I mean to cover a bit of it in my blog post.

(2. Question)


This is a good question.  My intention was not to imply that this is a sequential sequence, but something one endeavors to do, while practicing meditation.  However, it just so happens that it is indeed sequential, but meant to be repeated over and over again, until the altered state of consciousness that is associated with depth in meditation arises, then one simply attends to the self-arising phenomena of the altered state of consciousness that is associated with depth in meditation, then one attends to all of this phenomena, while still endeavoring to maintain sensitivity, calmness, steadiness, and release from the activities of the mind.
Thank you very much for sharing this understanding. I believe I now understand as well. To make certain, am I correct in thinking that one  goes (repeatedly) through the sequence of attending to calming bodily agitation, steadying the mind, mindfulness of anicca, etc., to first reach depth in meditation? Or do you find that, instead, one first reaches depth in meditation with "breath alone", and then begins to attend to the sequence?

If it is the former, may I request you to write a little -- if you would like -- about how one attends to the ideas in the sequence (calming bodily agitation, steadying the mind, mindfulness of anicca, and so on) while also attending to the breath?

I have not yet been able to practice this in a way that seems satisfactory to me -- it always seems to lead to my rapidly switching attention between breath and thoughts of calming/steadying/etc, and I don't think that's the right way!

(So I am very glad to read, below, that you find that the strategy I have been attempting -- that is, bare attention on the breath -- can lead to depth in meditation; at least I know that I can and should keep practicing that. But to ask clarification of someone who has actually achieved the jhanas, and who is able and willing to help others do so as well, is a rare opportunity; so please forgive my questions and my poor understanding of some of these concepts! I greatly appreciate your patience and assistance.)

What I get from the 4 sati suttas is to recognize that one need not waste vast amounts of time exploring all of the apparent exercises that those suttas seem to propose; but consider that if one technique does not work, then try another. 

Reflecting upon concepts such as: Loving Kindness (metta)... Compassion (Karuna)...Sympathetic Joy (Mudita)...Equanimity (Upekkha)...[the perception of the] foulness [of the body]... the perception of inconstancy (impermanence (anicca)), can lead to success in depth for some, but most just get to depth via bare attention upon the breath.  If so, then good, now just saturate one's self in that depth, and ride it to the greatest depth one can, and forget about all of the other methods and techniques.
That makes perfect sense to me; it's good to know. After all, it is the depth we are aiming at (despite the confusion among those who won't even put one toe in the water). I believe it has been a tradition among Buddhists that the proliferation of techniques are meant to provide ways for different temperaments to reach the jhanas, rather than for one person to go through all in sequence.

« Last Edit: April 16, 2016, 02:44:02 AM by WilliamW »

Jhanananda

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Re: A question and muse on anapanasati
« Reply #3 on: April 16, 2016, 02:45:41 AM »
I refer to your translations over others whenever possible, in fact. Your writings have confirmed for me what I had slowly begun to recognize on my own -- that many Buddhist teachers and translators don't actually have much experience with the path they purport to promulgate. If one is looking for advice or instruction on attaining deep meditative states and really experiencing what the Buddha experienced, it helps to get information from someone else who has actually done so!

As I recall from your commentary on the Dhammapada, Thanissaro indeed has a habit of confusing the issue with neologisms (neo- in the context of Buddhism, at least). I wouldn't be surprised if that particular section had been extracted from Thanissaro.

Yes, I believe that you are correct, so I need to find the time to dig into the Anapana-sati sutta to verify this issue, and correct it if it needs to be.  However, the engine in my van has been dead for almost a week now, so I need to focus upon bringing it back to life.  Fortunately a good friend, who happens to be a fundamentalist Christian has allowed me to have my van towed into his yard for an indefinite time for repairs in continued living in the van.  I guess I should say, "Prays the Lord."  He knows that I am as much a Buddhist as I am a contemplative Christian, and will not take on a belief system just to please anyone.

I can only agree. It's a shame, and one reason I'm so glad the information on GWV is out there; I think a lot of people become misled and then never seek any farther -- or even abandon their (unfortunate, juiceless) practice altogether.

I try not to get angry online, and usually don't struggle with it, but seeing how some supposed authorities go on to dilute the deep and insightful teachings of meditative absorption with inane platitudes and milquetoast "art of living" tropes... well, I can still be a bit appalled by it. I'm in the process of writing a blog post about this, actually.

Thank you for your kind words! I have had to wonder why it seems so difficult for some to understand the clear heart of Buddhist/meditation practice, while it is so evident to us. (The traditional explanation might be that we have good karma stored up... but critical thinking is a likelier one, I think.)

As I mentioned in our e-mails, I too have witnessed famous "masters" proclaim that meditation is just a way to be a nicer person, or to relax a bit; as you said, some seem to think it's just another type of nap. It beggars belief that someone can show up with the message that attainment in meditation is important, powerful, and possible... and have people ignore or even become angry about it, as if they prefer to believe that these things are impossible or only attainable in another life!

 I believe you have written about this as well, but as mentioned, I mean to cover a bit of it in my blog post.

I am convinced that the world is corrupt because that is what people want.

(2.Question)


Thank you very much for sharing this understanding. I believe I now understand as well. To make certain, am I correct in thinking that one  goes (repeatedly) through the sequence of attending to calming bodily agitation, steadying the mind, mindfulness of anicca, etc., to first reach depth in meditation? Or do you find that, instead, one first reaches depth in meditation, and then begins to attend to the sequence?

If it is the former, may I request you to write a little -- if you would like -- about how one attends to the ideas in the sequence (calming bodily agitation, steadying the mind, mindfulness of anicca, and so on) while also attending to the breath?

I have not yet been able to practice this in a way that seems satisfactory to me -- it always seems to lead to my rapidly switching attention between breath and thoughts of calming or steadying, and I don't think that's the right way!

(So I am very glad to read, below, that you believe the strategy I have been attempting -- that is, bare attention on the breath -- can lead to depth in meditation; at least I know that I can and should keep practicing that. But to ask clarification of someone who has actually achieved the jhanas, and who is able and willing to help others do so as well, is a rare opportunity; so please forgive my questions and my poor understanding of some of these concepts! I greatly appreciate your patience and assistance.)

The problem here is the sequence can be all too mechanical and cognitive, which will not reap results.  So, one just has to acquire that bare attention to the 5 aggregates as a meditation object, and actively still, calm etc, them when they become active or asset themselves over your field of bare attention.  So, one has to lean toward stillness, while responding to agitation as it arises.

That makes perfect sense to me. After all, it is the depth we are aiming at (despite the confusion among those who won't even put one toe in the water!). I believe it has been a tradition among Buddhists that the proliferation of techniques are meant to provide ways for different temperaments to reach the jhanas, rather than for one person to go through all in sequence.

Yes.  However, there seems to be little evidence in Buddhist literature that the priesthood of Buddhism has understood jhana for about 2,000 years.
There is no progress without discipline.

If you want to post to this forum, then send me a PM.