Dark Nights

[rougeleader115]

Hello friends,

This first post is going to be rather quick to the point as I am restricted in time and on a mobile device, but I feel the need to get things started. I have been a dedicated contemplative for about 6 years now. I have come to a point where medical issues make me question my longevity and Independence. As well as my place spiritually. So I reached out to Jhananda to ask some questions about the contemplative life, death, and generally living as a human in this day and age. As stated, this first post must be brief so I will start off with three questions. Anyone is more than welcome to add to this dialogue.

1) Is it truly possible to attain enlightenment leading the life of a house holder?

Although it seems as though it should be, I often question it because the two lifestyles feel conflictive almost naturally.

2) Will enlightenment cause me to be unable to continue a house holder lifestyle?

As I have stated, many of my experiences make me feel as though the two lifestyles will not mix the further I continue into meditation. I often feel so separate and confused about my identity that it seems the story will only get harder to tell myself as I age. But it feels inadequate to dismiss all that my life has been so far and the relationships that still manage to function.

3) Will there always be fear around new and worsening medical problems?

I see it as a part of aging either way even though I am young. Most due to being premature. But when my vision or body become inflamed and painful, or new intense symptoms appear, a great fear stirs in me. That I will die before freedom or understanding. And that my life was painful and null. I know that you have various issues that would scare me also Jhananda. But you seem to take it in stride. So I question my depth when I find myself nervous at these times when I am generally near fearless at this time in my life. Not that I don't experience anxiety, just I am not affected as detrimentally or as often as I used to before meditating.

Will continue posting further questions as we move forward in our dialogues.

Best Wishes,
Rougeleader

[Alexander]

I reflect on the same ideas, rougeleader, and frequently feel cynical about my progress on the "quest." So, do not feel alone! :)

[Jhanananda]

Hello friends,

This first post is going to be rather quick to the point as I am restricted in time and on a mobile device, but I feel the need to get things started. I have been a dedicated contemplative for about 6 years now. I have come to a point where medical issues make me question my longevity and Independence. As well as my place spiritually. So I reached out to Jhananda to ask some questions about the contemplative life, death, and generally living as a human in this day and age. As stated, this first post must be brief so I will start off with three questions. Anyone is more than welcome to add to this dialogue.

Thank-you, rougeleader115, for starting this most interesting thread.

1) Is it truly possible to attain enlightenment leading the life of a house holder?

Although it seems as though it should be, I often question it because the two lifestyles feel conflictive almost naturally.

I did, so anyone can.  However, I do agree that the householder lifestyle can be very all-consuming to the point of making the spiritual journey very difficult.  If I had to do it over again, I would have taken a monastic lifestyle much earlier.

2) Will enlightenment cause me to be unable to continue a house holder lifestyle?

As I have stated, many of my experiences make me feel as though the two lifestyles will not mix the further I continue into meditation. I often feel so separate and confused about my identity that it seems the story will only get harder to tell myself as I age. But it feels inadequate to dismiss all that my life has been so far and the relationships that still manage to function..

Not necessarily; however, enlightenment is likely to show you how much more difficult the householder lifestyle can be.

3) Will there always be fear around new and worsening medical problems?

I see it as a part of aging either way even though I am young. Most due to being premature. But when my vision or body become inflamed and painful, or new intense symptoms appear, a great fear stirs in me. That I will die before freedom or understanding. And that my life was painful and null. I know that you have various issues that would scare me also Jhananda. But you seem to take it in stride. So I question my depth when I find myself nervous at these times when I am generally near fearless at this time in my life. Not that I don't experience anxiety, just I am not affected as detrimentally or as often as I used to before meditating..

I see no reason for fear over death for those who are truly enlightened.  I look forward to being completely free of the physical dimension, and have no interest in returning to the physical after death.

The take home message that I would guess every enlightened being would want to be gotten by as many people who are intelligent enough to understand it is: The physical body belongs to the physical universe.  The spirit body belongs to the spiritual domain.  When we become enlightened we become all spirit, which means we do not care too much whether the body deteriorates.  On the other hand, if we are going to have a mission of teaching, then we will need good health.

Will continue posting further questions as we move forward in our dialogues.

Best Wishes,
Rougeleader

I look forward to reading more of what you have to say.

[DDawson]

Hello rougeleader 115,

Lets face it, it's odd communicating to people you don't know and can't see, especially about a subject that is enigmatic and doubtful.  I don't think the home life goes well with mental purification and saintliness.  Tripping out on Samadhi and then having to go to work in the morning didn't go well with me.  They're incompatible.  So, here's the deal.  I've been purchasing and old hotel in Happy Camp, California.  I thought, maybe it would be a good resource center for mendicants who want to camp out in the wilds during the summer.  Nightly puja and meditation?  Noon meal?  Shelter when a break is needed from the wilds? Some ideas I'm not ready to deliver on yet.  If you're interested, its the old Cuddihy hotel, built in 1857 located in Happy Camp.  Big wilderness, rivers, creeks, mountains and vast forests.  Mostly National forest.  I thought I'd throw that out there and be well.

[Jhanananda]

DDawson, your turning an old motel in Happy Camp into a retreat center sounds great.  My health is declining very rapidly now; so I am now looking for a place to die.  I have been through Happy Camp, it sounds like a good place to die.  I will look into it more, if you are interested.

[DDawson]

It's an old hotel and pretty beat up.  I inherited a caretaker who lives there, when I started making payments 3 years ago, so you would have to get along with him.  I also 1/2 own 12 acres on the Klamath river, three miles from town that you are free to camp-live on.  Health issues, it doesn't seem possible until they come calling.  On that note, I've been looking into Nad+ cell rejuvenator supplements and something called telemears.  Some kind of age reversal theories and treatments.  I hope you find something that makes you feel better.

[Jhanananda]

Thanks, DDawson, for the kind offer of a place to stay that might not be as allergic as Prescott is.  I will have to get mobile first, and I might not live that long, but we will see.

Thanks for the recommendations.  I am now convinced that I just need to avoid seasonal allergies; and wearing a respirator every day outside, and using a HEPA filter indoors, looks like it will solve the health problem for now.  I am hopeful that a CPAP Machine will make all of the difference, at least until I can move to a less allergy-prone place.  One is on order.  My health insurance is paying for it, and I expect to receive it today or Monday.

[rougeleader115]

Thank you both for responding to this post.

DDawson, I completely agree with you. The difficulty I am finding is just as you say. I cannot imagine trying to navigate the experiences I have now, knowing they will increase in depth and variation, while also trying to live as a normal working human. Especially with a child. Also the fact that no one I talk to cares all too much about deep meditation and what happens, as I know we all struggle with here. But it never helps that such a core part of my life is something most people scoff at or think is a waste of time. They tell me it is something only for my mental health or slowing things down, but it is mostly a tedious waste of energy and time. And that simultaneously means that I am also since it is what my life is centered around.

Also thank you so much for the hotel offer. If I were single or homeless, I would/will definitely take you up on that. It is just the kind of lifestyle I think I may need most, but am not going to force at this point. I feel I have at least some chance to make a householder lifestyle work with my current circumstances, so I am hesitant to give it all up. Otherwise I would surely be a mendicant or recluse.

Jhananda, I greatly appreciate your response. I am so happy to know that there is a chance at freedom on either path. I am also moved that you are entirely free of the body even in unfavorable circumstances that the body presents. I feel a definite drive to attain that freedom for myself. My body steadily remind me my time is short.

I know I have been long to respond but thank you so much. I will be posting the next set of questions in a few days as I get time to write it up.

Rougeleader

[Jhanananda]

Thank you both for responding to this post.

...Jhananda, I greatly appreciate your response. I am so happy to know that there is a chance at freedom on either path. I am also moved that you are entirely free of the body even in unfavorable circumstances that the body presents. I feel a definite drive to attain that freedom for myself. My body steadily remind me my time is short...
Rougeleader

You are welcome.  In my experience the world has offered me very little, so what I get out of deep meditation is the most fulfilling thing I have done in this lifetime; and it has lead to sobriety, and freedom from other addictions, and neuroses.  So, I am confident that you will find the same when you are ready.  Just keep in mind that until you are ready for the deepest depths in meditation, then just reduce your sitting time to keep the experience within your comfort zone.

[rougeleader115]

Alexander also, thank you for letting me know I am not alone in my striving. I missed your previous comment because of my small screen.

A good reminder Jhananda, I will be sure to remember. I often push myself unnecessarily, because I feel I will not make the journey. But I really can only take so much at a time and that has been a learning process for me. It is good to know I should not feel lacking when I need to take it a little easier.

Rougeleader

[rougeleader115]

Here goes the second set of questions.


1) Does morality play a part in whether one can become enlightened?

2) What is the relationship of our individual awareness to the godhead?
 
I understand the broadness of this question. But it is because I am not even really sure how to word it exactly. I have felt
seperate from my personal identity and have only had more experiences making that more apparant. But I do not understand why, even when i dream
of being a different entity or person, I still feel the same attachment. Almost as if "this is me now" and the old me no longer exists. I just
am starting to not understand what I am, just what I am not. the most I can is i feel aware of my body, world, and personality, and all the sensations that come with it
but that I do not feel directly identified by any of them.

3) Should we mentally abandon/dissociate with the body and mind throughout the day and during meditation? Or should this occur naturally as one keeps attention on the charisms
and progresses deeper?


Thank you for your time. And please anyone else add some questions. Some questions I have but do not know how to word, and some of you may have questions that we may all want
guidance on but I may not think to ask.


Rougeleader

[Jhanananda]

Here goes the second set of questions.


1) Does morality play a part in whether one can become enlightened?

Since that which is born must die, then no living thing has immorality.  Whereas, that which is spirit is immortal.  Since we are spirit in a body, then the body will die, while the spirit lives on.

2) What is the relationship of our individual awareness to the godhead?
 
I understand the broadness of this question. But it is because I am not even really sure how to word it exactly. I have felt seperate from my personal identity and have only had more experiences making that more apparant. But I do not understand why, even when i dream
of being a different entity or person, I still feel the same attachment. Almost as if "this is me now" and the old me no longer exists. I just am starting to not understand what I am, just what I am not. the most I can is i feel aware of my body, world, and personality, and all the sensations that come with it but that I do not feel directly identified by any of them.

In my experience the "Godhead" is the sum total of the spirit domain; thus when one traverses the 8 stages of samadhi, then we become united with the Godhead.

3) Should we mentally abandon/dissociate with the body and mind throughout the day and during meditation? Or should this occur naturally as one keeps attention on the charisms
and progresses deeper?

Both.  Learning to meditate deeply requires 24-7 occupation with being mindfully self-aware.

Thank you for your time. And please anyone else add some questions. Some questions I have but do not know how to word, and some of you may have questions that we may all want
guidance on but I may not think to ask.


Rougeleader

I agree our dialogs are improved through cooperative dialog with as many as wish to participate.

[rougeleader115]

Thank you for those answers. I have been bogged trying to finish my last class for a small degree in public health. So all of my energy has been spent there lately.

I guess one of my last questions for now is if there are any specifics around what we should focus on at the end of life? Is there anything more to do besides getting upwards of 4-6 hours of meditation, and releasing the body while focusing on the charisms throughout daily life?

 I ask, not because this method isn't working, I just want to be sure. I feel like I travel to a different world or theme every night, and often see things as awareness only as I transition around from dream to dream or in the transition from body to dream and vice versa. Just making sure I am focusing on the right things or not worrying about what I don't need to worry about.

Thank you
Rougeleader

[Jhanananda]

Thank you for those answers. I have been bogged trying to finish my last class for a small degree in public health. So all of my energy has been spent there lately.

I guess one of my last questions for now is if there are any specifics around what we should focus on at the end of life? Is there anything more to do besides getting upwards of 4-6 hours of meditation, and releasing the body while focusing on the charisms throughout daily life?

I would add a contemplative, who is interested in a fruitful contemplative life would endeavor to lead a stress-free lifestyle, as well as remaining in the present moment, and endeavoring to keep the mind still at all times.

I ask, not because this method isn't working, I just want to be sure. I feel like I travel to a different world or theme every night, and often see things as awareness only as I transition around from dream to dream or in the transition from body to dream and vice versa. Just making sure I am focusing on the right things or not worrying about what I don't need to worry about.

Thank you
Rougeleader

At the moment of transition from the body at death, and when entering deep states of consciousness, at these times one would want to attend to the luminosity, while avoiding the shadows.