Living examples, living Arahats / Buddhas

[Jhanek]

In MN 22 we see only the 4 jhanas described, and the result of mastering the 4th is arahatship. In MN-26 we see all 8 stages of samadhi lead to full liberation.  Therefore, the full journey to enlightenment involves mastering all 8 stages of samadhi; however, mastering the 4 jhanas is essential for the arahat, which leads to full liberation.

Now when You answered again catched some confusion. When the path was hidden, before Buddha's investigations - high jhana was present. As a fruition of contemplative life we may count jhana, but on the other hand it seems like it is not a must to be on path to attain this particular fruit (vide other threads). Question: is jhana the only exception?

My problem is I do not know 6-8 jhana, so I cannot be sure what is there.

Lets make an assumption: one is working very very slowly removing defilements, it takes him lets say 60 years but he is not practising jhana. Intuition tells me that it should be possible to reach full liberation, however the stream entry would happen with the last defilement, no matter how strong one's saddha was.

I wanted to use kids as an example, as it happened that kids were Arahants, because their pile of defilements was very little, but this is bad example as kids would go creative way to fasten the process. His kid, Rahula, was 7 at that moment. Was he practising jhana?

Also as I am looking at this Buddha case - his journey needed 8th jhana as described, but are we sure if all 8 were mandatory for enlightenment? From what I have seen till now I would say that even lower jhana enables sufficient observation of the 'core path' and once one is stable in observing the point is to have such inteligence and analytical skills to match all those action-reaction things.

[DDawson]

Hi Janek,

Remember, the Buddha recalled an experience in his childhood, investigated it and concluded this was what he was looking for.  I believe the innocent mind has the ability to perceive emptiness.  Innocents lacks fear, judgement or any conception of what is right or wrong.  Things just are.  This is the reality hidden by ego manifested illusion. 

Here's a story about Ajahn Chah.  His practice was going nowhere until he met Ajahn Mun, which was a single brief meeting.  Ajahn Mun told him the secret was cultivating the heart.  He did just that, tried to be happy go lucky, bright and compassionate.  This triggered Samadhi in his meditation and he was doing a lot of it when he had an experience that I believe was stream entry.  He had a cup in his hand and looking at it, it was no longer a cup and then it was again.  This is a moment when our experience is revealed as a made up reality.  What we see are mental projections and manufactured realities that are games of the mind.
 

Here's another name to think about.  Vernon Howard.  He was all about the games we and everyone else plays that make us confused and miserable.  His solution was awareness.  Just by being honest and aware of our crazy minds, we can overcome the delusion and see reality. Wishing you well.

[Jhanananda]

Now when You answered again catched some confusion. When the path was hidden, before Buddha's investigations - high jhana was present. As a fruition of contemplative life we may count jhana, but on the other hand it seems like it is not a must to be on path to attain this particular fruit (vide other threads). Question: is jhana the only exception?

Do recall the the Noble Eightfold Path is 8 folds, and the 8th fold is specifically defined in terms of the 4 jhanas.  See DN 22.

Secondly, jhana only refers to the lower 4 stages of samadhi; whereas, the upper stages of samadhi are not referred to as jhana, but all have the suffix 'ayatana.'  So, let us be precise and refer to only the 4 lower stages of samadhi as 'jhana,' and the upper 4 stages as 'ayatana.'

Therefore, while one can  be "on the path" without jhana; nonetheless, there is no fruition without jhana.  And, arahatship requires all 4 jhanas.

My problem is I do not know 6-8 jhana, so I cannot be sure what is there.

Just keep in mind that the 4 ayatanas are OOBEs.  There are organizations today which claim to teach the OOBE; however, they know nothing of liberation.  Why is that?  Because they have not understood the significance of jhana.

Lets make an assumption: one is working very very slowly removing defilements, it takes him lets say 60 years but he is not practising jhana. Intuition tells me that it should be possible to reach full liberation, however the stream entry would happen with the last defilement, no matter how strong one's saddha was.

This assumption is actually at the heart of the incorrect understanding of the damma.  The defilements will always be in place without the aide of the liberating quality of jhana.  Therefore, it is a complete waist of time to hack away at the defilements without learning to meditate deeply.  We simply must keep in mind that Buddhism is based upon a Noble Eightfold Path, not a 7-fold path.

I wanted to use kids as an example, as it happened that kids were Arahants, because their pile of defilements was very little, but this is bad example as kids would go creative way to fasten the process. His kid, Rahula, was 7 at that moment. Was he practising jhana?

Jhana is not a practice.  It is an experience.  Was, his kid, Rahula, experiencing jhana at the age of 7?  Perhaps.  Otherwise, kids grow up, become adults, and find their defilements maturing.

Also as I am looking at this Buddha case - his journey needed 8th jhana as described, but are we sure if all 8 were mandatory for enlightenment? From what I have seen till now I would say that even lower jhana enables sufficient observation of the 'core path' and once one is stable in observing the point is to have such inteligence and analytical skills to match all those action-reaction things.

One must keep in mind that the path to liberation and enlightenment is no cognative.  We do not think our way there.  We stop thinking, meditate, and observe our defilements washed away by repeated experience of jhana.

Thank-you, DDawson, for your contribution.  I have not heard of the person, Vernon Howard.  While I appreciate non-dual approach it seems that he did not understand the value of deep meditation, which is common for non-dualists.

The problem that I have with: Ajahn Chah and Ajahn Mun is they both looked to the Vissudhimagga as their source of understanding jhana.  This becomes problematic, when we realize that the Vissudhimagga had a corrupt interpretation of jhana.

[Jhanek]

The more I read the more lost I feel sometimes.

This assumption is actually at the heart of the incorrect understanding of the damma.  The defilements will always be in place without the aide of the liberating quality of jhana.  Therefore, it is a complete waist of time to hack away at the defilements without learning to meditate deeply.  We simply must keep in mind that Buddhism is based upon a Noble Eightfold Path, not a 7-fold path.

Thats right. But lets look closer: one is practicing slowly. I am not saying one will end the path only watching his kilesa. I am saying that one can go very, very slowly and go reach some quite important point by observing kilesa. By that, being pretty lets say 'clear inside' with not many kilesa left one is naturally gaining deep meditation, but he is so close to the liberation that once he goes deeper he finish or even it just happens to him, suddenly Nibbana pops up, cuts of the remaining defilements and here comes liberated man.
Neither I am saying we should go that way - but I see many people go that way, also in some organisations. Their results are weak - but maybe the results on their path will be scaling high at one point. I cannot rule it out that just before ending they are bound to master the 8th element

The reason why I want to analyse those weird, like above mentioned, theoretical cases is because my case is somewhere between. I can practice deeply and when I do so I see defilements being eradicated and when jhana happens to me this process is accelerated. However, what I have noticed, is that going much deeper stops arising of defilements at all or nearly at all. Therefore I am looking for some balance between shallow practices and deep meditation, because I treat defilements as first to be removed. Maybe my personal view is curved but I cannot feel progress while prolonged experience of jhana. By progress I mean something has arosen and then it is slowly passing, in that case something else than jhana state.

On the other side there were guys on the path meditating insanely profoundly and removing their all defilements or particular sort of defilements(before stream entry) within minutes. So their strategy is: morality+huge focus, attentive mind+short but succesfull work. Though we do not know for how long one was preparing himself for that.
Reaching 10th floor one can use stairs, other elevator, third escalator, but no launcher is banned.

Outside this forum almost no Sangha is present. That is somehow worrying me as I want to reach clear view and maybe one day help others to experience inner peace.

Here's another name to think about.  Vernon Howard.  He was all about the games we and everyone else plays that make us confused and miserable.  His solution was awareness.  Just by being honest and aware of our crazy minds, we can overcome the delusion and see reality. Wishing you well.

Thanks for these examples.

[Jhanek]

Mahanuwara Wajirabuddhi Thēra on Arahant Phala and Jhana:

This whole process occurs with it and disappears with
it. This process takes place very fast. What does Vēdanā
Chaitasika say? It informed us whether it is pleasing, not pleasing,
or a neutral one!
*Buddha Sāsana+ 267
Next Chaitasika is Sanña, what does it do? We know now
what we have seen, we know whether it is a pleasant one or not,
then the Sanña Chaitasika recognizes it whether it is a fruit, a
lotus flower, or Plumeria obtuse (Araliya) flower etc! I took them
as an example; the Sanña Chaitasika does identification.
What happens next is Chētanā; there is another
Chaitasika, it is called Chētanā. We have seen we know what we
have seen. Whether we like it or not is determined by the Vēdanā
Chaitasika. Then the Sanña has identified what the object is.
What happens next? Depending on liking and disliking, what does
Chētanā Chaitasika do, it develops a desire if the object is a
pleasant one – rāga citta! If it is an unpleasant one, Chētanā
Chaitasika develops a D̀ vēsha Citta. If it is Adukkhamasukha, it
creates an mōha citta. However, what does it do now? Rāga –
D̀ vēsha – Mōha, the three arise here! Have you understood it? I
got to this point to explain it!
Next is the Manasikāra activity, another Chaitasika that
encourages the activities. What I want to get across to you is that
whenever a Vin̊ ñāna occurs, with each Citta, or whenever a citta
occurs, Rāga – D̀ vēsha - Mōha invariably arise. Have you
understood it?
With every Vin̊ ñāna occurrence, the Passa – Sanña –
Vēdanā – Chētanā - Manasikāra activities also take place. What is
there called Chētanā and Chētanā Chaitasika is Kamma certainly.
Rāga – D̀ vēsha - Mōha, this is what the Buddha had said by,
“Chēthanāhan bhikkhawē kamman wadhāmi.” Thus, this Chētanā
Chaitasika occurs with every Vin̊ ñāna occurrence, with every citta
unquestionably. Therefore, if this occurs with every Vin̊ ñāna, if
*Buddha Sāsana+ 268
the three, Rāga – D̀ vēsha - Mōha are presents, is everything pure?
Is it impure? Now is our Citta purified because that we have
control over the body – words and had become a person with Sīla,
and have got Pancha Nīvarana suppressed by doing bhāvanā, if
not why? Because every instant a Vin̊ ñāna occurs, so called,
Chaitasika activities also occur! There is Chētanā in every citta.
Therefore, that citta is impure.
As long as this rāga – d̀ vēsha - mōha present, the citta is
impure. Who does not have rāga – d̀ vēsha - mōha? Now here,
rāga – d̀ vēsha - mōha are kamma! Sankhāra means the same
here. They are known as Kāya Sankhāra, Vacci Sankhāra, and
Manō Sankhāra.  What it says is that these kamma are Vacci
Kamma, Kāya Kamma, and Mano Kamma. I have told earlier that
everything is done by thinking with Citta. In all these thoughts,
Chētanā Chaitasika is present. Then who does not have this
Chētanā Chaitasika, this kamma? Arahants! Therefore, in
everyone except for the Arahants the Chētanā Chaitasika occurs
simultaneously with Vin̊ ñāna . In other words, these three, rāga,
d̀ vēsha, and mōha are present. If so, as long as those three are
present, the citta is impure. That is the reason for the Buddha to
state the third phrase, “Sachitt pariyodapanan̊ ,” the Buddha
wanted us to purify what? The roots of those explained akusala!
Destroy the three, rāga – d̀ vēsha - mōha. The citta is not pure as
long as these roots of Akusala are present. As we keep purifying
them, the ultimate end, the end of the purifying is called the rank
of Arahant. What should be destroyed? Āsrawa!
What are Āsrawa? They are desire for Kāma, desire for
Bhava, desire for Avijjā; are Kāma Tanhā, Bhava Tanhā, and
*Buddha Sāsana+ 269
Vibhava Tanhā! All these Tanhā occur, kilesa occur due to
Chētanā Chaitasika, rāga – d̀ vēsha - mōha. Then in who does, the
Chētanā Chaitasika does not occur? In Arahant! Vin̊ ñāna occurs
to an Arahant too. Even to an Arahant Vin̊ ñāna occurs at the eye
when an Rūpa or colors meet his eyes. Along with it, Passa
Chaitasika activates. Arahant knows that he has seen. Arahant
knows that he has seen if he has seen then Vēdanā informs him
about what was seen. Nevertheless, it is different to pruthugjana.
Still there is a Vēdanā however. A suggestion is present, as
regards, whether he likes it or not even there. Then Sanña
identifies it. If it is sweet to the tongue, he knows that it is sweet
– or if bitter, he knows that it is bitter. That is suggestion. Then it
identifies. If it tastes sweet, identifies it as Palmyra honey or
coconut honey etc. Smelling an odor also is like that. He knows
whether it is a desirable smell or an undesirable smell. Then he
identifies whether it is a smell of a lotus flower or Araliya flower
etc. In pruthugjana, in people who are not Arahants, however
with these two, the Chētanā Chaitasika occurs next. It does not
exist in Arahants. Why? Because he does not have a citta that
will stick with the object, saying this tastes sweet! He does not
have a citta that would stick to it saying that it is pretty. He does
not have a citta that detest saying it is ugly or bitter. Do you
understand? Chētanā Chaitasika does not activate in him! Is it
clear then attainment of Arahanthood means citta is purified. The
statements in all those three phrases will reach completion in all
aspects at the attainment of Arahanthood only, until then
everyone’s citta is impure. Even though, the Pancha Nīvarana is
suppressed and Kusala has been developed, it is not complete.
Then, the segment that other religions do not have is this.
Possession of any mystical powers, ability to fly in sky etc has no
*Buddha Sāsana+ 270
value. Until the power of their kusala is present, they will enjoy
even birth in Brahma sphere, enjoy long life and happiness
escaping from dukkha temporarily, at the end of kusala powers
they will come back to the world. Why? Because, all of them
existing within world! As long as the Chētanā Chaitasika is
present, they have not escaped from sam̊ sara . It is to be free
from this that we need to destroy it. Then, they do not exist in
Arahants. Therefore, to get there what we need to do is to
destroy this akusala roots. Doing that is purification of citta. Have
you understood it? Are you clear about them?
I have explained many terms. I am not sure whether, you
all understood them, it has some difficulties. Why is that? This is
very difficult, though I have made extra effort to explain! This is
actually difficult. However much it is explained, understanding it
is not easy. This is a place; everyone would find difficulty to grasp.
Are you clear? About what have been explaining so far?
It is difficult to explain colors to a person who is blind from
birth. It is difficult for a person to understand who had not
experienced them, even if it is explained repeatedly. Using words,
we explain. It is like the turtle trying to explain about the dry land
to a fish. I have told this before, however much the turtle tried to
explain the fish that it needs to walk on dry land, and dry land is
not like water etc, does the fish get it? The fish thinks that there
is water even on top of dry land! It is like that when something
not known is explained to us. People’s ideas, thoughts, and
everything come about based on if they are perceptible to the
Indriya – eye – ear – nose – tongue – body – mind.
*Buddha Sāsana+ 271
However, cannot explain further than that, if Citta is not
developed beyond that. That is why we are asked to develop
Paññā. Merely having knowledge in a person would not work.
Knowledge is not Paññā. Paññā is diffrent Vin̊ ñāna is different.
Knowledge is different understanding is different. Had advised to
purify citta, with what do we see this truth? We need to see what
is called Panchchupādānaskandha, these activities, Passa –
Vēdanā – Sanña – Chētanā – Manasikāra, which occurs
simultaneously with Vin̊ ñāna! We understand the actuality only
on the day we see them. Who sees this? An Arahant! That
seeing is called attaining the Abhinñā; see this reality, and these
activities with Abhinñā. That is the instant the Arahant Pala is
attained. To end this, all kilesa needed to be destroyed. All kilesa
must be wiped out. Then, that is what is called the purification of
citta.
Dyāna arose like the settlement of mud in that pond I have
said; the citta is like the cleansed water. What do we do next?
We need to do a bhāvanā next to purify the citta! Just like the
mud in the pond, as long as there is mud there is a chance for the
water to be impure, if we remove all the mud what happens? It is
like that, no purpose in just suppressing the akusala! Those roots
of akusala are there underneath, like the roots of that tree. The
Buddha had said that the path to Nibbāna is, like in that tree,
must uproot the roots, bundle them, cut them into pieces, burn,
and throw away even ashes to float away. Then what do we do to
purify the citta? The Buddha had advised us to practice another
bhāvanā! Let us discuss that next. Have you understood things
explained up to now? Now, what is the question that you were
trying to ask; is it about citta?

[Jhanek]

Arahant Mahanuwara Wajirabuddhi Thēro on importance of Jhana in mind stilling process:

TL,DR: Jhana should clear/prepare mind before Satipatthana practice; the stronger the mind the faster the purification progress.

If we take you back to the beginning, I have said that there
are 10 Pāpa Kammas, three by the body, 4 by words, and 3 by
mind adding up to 10. What is meant here is abstaining from
doing three bodily Pāpa Kammas, and the four verbal Pāpa
Kammas out of the 10. Then he becomes a virtuous person, one
having Sīla. What do we do next? We develop kusala! For what
are we developing kusala? For destroying akusala! Then what are
akusala? They are desires to satisfy the Āyatanas, eye – ear –
nose – tongue – body – mind. Kāmadchanda is an akusala. Then
d̀ vēsha, anger is another akusala, which is the Nīvarana called
Vyāpadha. Next is, Thīnamiddha, which is the laziness in body and
mind. Then, it is Uddhadcha-Kukkudcha. This is the restlessness
*Buddha Sāsana+ 276
feeling in the citta and the regret that appears in citta for Pāpa
done, and Pina not done. We call it Uddhadcha-Kukkudcha. Next
is Vicikidchā, the doubt that exists about the Buddha , Dhamma,
San̊ gha, Kamma etc. People’s citta stays on these Pancha
Nīvarana most of the time. Because of that, we practice a
bhāvanā to free the Citta from them. What do we do, by Samatha
Bhāvanā? We get rid of them by suppression of those described
Nīvarana! That is what we mean as developing kusala. Then First
Dyāna is a kusala. When the Pancha Nīvarana is suppressed, what
comes up is kusala citta. The properties of the first kusala are
presence of dyāna elements, Vithakka, Vichāra, Prīthi, Sukha, and
Àkhāggathā. At Second Dyāna, Vithakka and Vichāra are
abandoned leaving Prīthi, Sukha, and Àkhāggathā. At Third
Dyāna, Prīthi is dropped leaving Sukha and Àkhāggathā. At Fourth
Dyāna Sukha is dropped leaving a purified Citta, pure Upēkshā.
We call it Pure Upēkshā because what is there is Pabhāshvara
citta. That is what the Buddha defined as purified citta. We all by
nature have a pure citta. Now the shining citta that appeared by
suppressing kilesa, is focused on the deep dhamma that exist in
the world. We can focus it. This citta is very strong. We have to
bring that citta up. The Buddha had talked a lot on this in Sūtta.
Then, it is this citta, which we focus to purify the citta. The
current citta is not pure, as Chētanā Chaitasika still exists. That
means the rāga – d̀ vēsha - mōha; the roots of akusala are still
present. This citta is impure as long as the akusala roots exist.
Therefore, to purify that we must destroy the akusala roots. Then
what keeps arising in it is, Lōbha – Dvēsha ̀ - Mōha, and they arise
because of Avijjā. As long as Avijjā is present, they do not
disappear. Now, we must destroy Avijjā. Ignorance of Anicca,
Dukkha, and Anatta is Avijjā. To destroy that Vidyā must arise.
*Buddha Sāsana+ 277
Seeing of anicca – dukkha - anatta is Vidyā. What do we do to see
them? We must develop Sathara Satipatthāna! Then
development of Sathara Satipatthāna is easy for that purified
kusala citta. That citta cleansed of Pancha Nīvarana. The citta of
Fourth Dyāna is focused on Sathara Satipatthāna. Then we will be
capable of seeing the truth as is. To see the true nature of the
body. What is the true nature of the Vēdanā? What is the true
nature of the citta? After that is Dhammānupassanā! We will be
able to analyze Sathara Satipatthāna by examining what is the
true nature of dhamma etc by developing Sathara Satipatthāna
Bhāvanā. By developing Sathara Satipatthāna, we can see Anicca
– Dukkha – Anatta. We could get the Vidyā to arise. A Buddha
appears to disclose this process. All the Buddhas that appeared in
the past had also declared this same thing. The Buddhas that
would appear in the future also will declare this same thing.
Therefore, from any Buddha we get to hear this same dēshanā.
Therefore, this is what is called Sāsana. This is Buddhānusāsanā!

[Jhanananda]

We can summarize all of this by stating, "There is no progress without discipline."

[Jhanek]

Morning,

So today I continue investigating the living Arahats. My research on Mahanuwara Wajirabuddhi Thēro is positive.

My research on Buddhist Schools:

XVI Karmapa Rangdziung Rigpe Dordże: positive. Jhana practice, good teachings, many fruits like telepathy, healing, taking others ilnesses on him  etc.
XVII Karmapa version A - Trinlej Taje Dordże: negative. Nothing.
XVII Karmapa version B - Ogjen Trinlej Dordże: not sure. Jhana practice + he was able to put his fist into the solid rock. Maybe he is on the path, but he did not finished yet.

XIV Shamarpa Mipham Chokyi Lodro: negative. He is performing something, but I think he was not on the path.

XIII Dalai Lama - Jhana practice
XIV Dalai Lama - as I stated previously: positive.

XI Panchen Lama ver A - no info, kidnapped by the Chinese.
XI Panchen Lama ver B - Gyaincain Norbu chosen by the Chinese: he is practicing well, but I cannot feel jhana from him. Negative.

I found out the story from other thread in a book: 'Reexamining Jhāna: Towards a Critical Reconstruction of Early Buddhist Soteriology' in the chapter 2.3.2 'the non-buddhist elements in the meditative teachings
of the modern theravādin meditation masters'

A lay disciple once told me how, completely by chance, he had fallen into a deep jhāna
while meditating at home. His wife thought he had died and sent for an ambulance. He
was rushed to hospital in a loud wail of sirens. In the emergency room, no heartbeat
registered on the ECG, and no brain activity was seen by EEG So the doctor on duty
put defirillators on his chest to reactivate his heart. Even though he was being bounced
up and down on the hospital bed through the force ofthe electric shocks, he didn’t feel
a thing. When he emerged from the jhāna in the emergency room, perfectly all right,
he had no knowledge of how he got there, nothing of ambulances and sirens. Nothing
of body-jerking defibrillator (Brahm 2006, 154–155).
Ths account must seem all too familiar to us by now, but contrary to what Ajahn
Brahm writes, it is not jhāna that we are reminded ofhere. The complete inactivity of
the senses, the resemblance to a dead person, the halt in the functioning ofthe most
basic bodily operations are all the features of the highest yogic state of meditation,
the very same state that was introduced by the later Buddhists under the name of
saññāvedayitanirodha. There can be no doubt, that Ajahn Brahm’s jhāna possesses
all the distinct features of yogic meditation.

In some way this quote convinces me that Ajahn Brahm is doing something else than the path to liberation. I think it is not a teacher we should rely on, however he is doing something deep. What is it?

Ajahm Sujato - positive. On the path, but haven't finished yet.

Ajahn Sumedho - positive. Low on the path?

Webu Sayadaw - was stated to be Arahant. Jhana practice.


Thích Nhất Hạnh, zen school. Jhana present. Well advanced on the path; very deep comments on how to advance on path, how to eradicate kilesa, practice jhana etc.

Ajahn Chah - stated to completed the path
Buddhadasa - stated to completed

OSHO - mostly controversial guy, but not to forget his first practice and his first book was about Vipassana. He stated himself he was enlightened. The things he is writing about in his books are very detailed, unique, so at least at the beginning of his 'career' he was meditating good, reaching at least 4 body jhanas plus 5th. He was also lucid dreaming. Deep understanding of the practical aspects.

U Pandita - not sure if he completed the path, but he was well advanced. Jhana present. Long, 20 years of theory and more than 70 years of practice. Former lives recognition.

[Jhanananda]

Thank-you, Janek, for posting your analysis.  It is possible that you, and/or others may come to different conclusions later, but for now your findings seem reasonable.  We just have to keep in mind that "we know a tree by its fruit."

[Jhanek]

Thank-you, Janek, for posting your analysis.  It is possible that you, and/or others may come to different conclusions later, but for now your findings seem reasonable.  We just have to keep in mind that "we know a tree by its fruit."

Thanks, that would be very nice if anyone comes with something contrary to what I found then we can eliminate or re-investigate some teachers and gurus. Also the Internet and books are weak source comparing to face-2-face meeting.
The most interesting cases are those on other paths like Patanjali's yoga etc.

[Jhanek]

So today somethings interesting in this subject.



SN 25.10

At Savatthi. "Monks, form is inconstant, changeable, alterable. Feeling... Perception... Fabrications... Consciousness is inconstant, changeable, alterable.

"One who has conviction & belief that these phenomena are this way is called a faith-follower: one who has entered the orderliness of rightness, entered the plane of people of integrity, transcended the plane of the run-of-the-mill. He is incapable of doing any deed by which he might be reborn in hell, in the animal womb, or in the realm of hungry shades. He is incapable of passing away until he has realized the fruit of stream-entry.

"One who, after pondering with a modicum of discernment, has accepted that these phenomena are this way is called a Dhamma-follower: one who has entered the orderliness of rightness, entered the plane of people of integrity, transcended the plane of the run-of-the-mill. He is incapable of doing any deed by which he might be reborn in hell, in the animal womb, or in the realm of hungry shades. He is incapable of passing away until he has realized the fruit of stream-entry.

"One who knows and sees that these phenomena are this way is called a stream-enterer, steadfast, never again destined for states of woe, headed for self-awakening."

So the point is...whenever there is doubt, no Saddha, blind-faith although it may seem the conditions for the stream entry may be fulfilled there will be no stream-entry without intelectual understanding. One has to be 100% clear about the path for the very unique citta/thought/state of mind to occur.

Investigating many different cases of the proper meditators the different is the quality of jhanic states.
In the case of Sangha the jhana is deep and well established, the more purified the mind the higher permanent jhanic state is present.

Sometimes I feel touch of jhana. But surprisingly in many cases the state is very strong,  means one is Sangha.

Sometimes the state is deeper and well established what means, there is more than piti. This is the mostly common among those who usually are said to be this or that. So the second state of enlightenment is right there.

Then, sometimes there are those who are sharing more or less rays of equanimity mixed with sukkha. Very rare - but always strong. There is almost no such things like 'touch' of equanimity. Means very few of those who went to 3rd or 4th jhana were not on the path. Here I would put 1 of the above mentioned ajahms as clearly he is doing something in the other way round.

There is a lot of doubt everywhere. In the meditation centers also. The people are blocking themselves. The teachers with doubt are present in many places. Shall remember that.

[Jhanananda]

So today somethings interesting in this subject.

SN 25.10

At Savatthi. "Monks, form is inconstant, changeable, alterable. Feeling... Perception... Fabrications... Consciousness is inconstant, changeable, alterable.

As I have pointed out for years, the suttas in English translation suffer from deeply flawed translations.  For instance in this stanza Consciousness is said to be impermanent.  Well, it is for those who have not learned to meditate deeply.  However, for those contemplatives who have learned to meditate deeply, then for them there is a continuity of Consciousness, therefore it can be permanent.

The problem here is the Pali term 'vinnana' is believed to be correctly translated as 'Consciousness.'  I have stated before here, that the Pali term 'vinnana' is better translated as 'cognition.'  Cognition is an aggriggate of cognitive functions; whereas, 'consciousness' is a property of awareness, which does not depend upon aggrigation.

"One who has conviction & belief that these phenomena are this way is called a faith-follower: one who has entered the orderliness of rightness, entered the plane of people of integrity, transcended the plane of the run-of-the-mill. He is incapable of doing any deed by which he might be reborn in hell, in the animal womb, or in the realm of hungry shades. He is incapable of passing away until he has realized the fruit of stream-entry.

"One who, after pondering with a modicum of discernment, has accepted that these phenomena are this way is called a Dhamma-follower: one who has entered the orderliness of rightness, entered the plane of people of integrity, transcended the plane of the run-of-the-mill. He is incapable of doing any deed by which he might be reborn in hell, in the animal womb, or in the realm of hungry shades. He is incapable of passing away until he has realized the fruit of stream-entry.

"One who knows and sees that these phenomena are this way is called a stream-enterer, steadfast, never again destined for states of woe, headed for self-awakening."

The problem here is the faith-only follower has not overcome his craving and covetousness; therefore, he has no attainment, until he/she takes up a fruitful contemplative life.

So the point is...whenever there is doubt, no Saddha, blind-faith although it may seem the conditions for the stream entry may be fulfilled there will be no stream-entry without intelectual understanding. One has to be 100% clear about the path for the very unique citta/thought/state of mind to occur.

While I will agree that learning to think critically, and unpacking our belief systems are core skills for the contemplative; the very fact that not a single Buddhist monk today understand the value of jhana, means that pure faith, or intellectual pursuit, cannot lead to liberation.

Investigating many different cases of the proper meditators the different is the quality of jhanic states.
In the case of Sangha the jhana is deep and well established, the more purified the mind the higher permanent jhanic state is present.

Well, I agree; however, the Buddha sangha has only proven they have no idea what jhana is, so they have no attainment.  Instead they teach a-dhamma (falsehood.)

Sometimes I feel touch of jhana. But surprisingly in many cases the state is very strong,  means one is Sangha.

The true sangha has jhanic attainment.  The false sangha has not jhana.

Sometimes the state is deeper and well established what means, there is more than piti. This is the mostly common among those who usually are said to be this or that. So the second state of enlightenment is right there.

Then, sometimes there are those who are sharing more or less rays of equanimity mixed with sukkha. Very rare - but always strong. There is almost no such things like 'touch' of equanimity. Means very few of those who went to 3rd or 4th jhana were not on the path. Here I would put 1 of the above mentioned ajahms as clearly he is doing something in the other way round.

There is a lot of doubt everywhere. In the meditation centers also. The people are blocking themselves. The teachers with doubt are present in many places. Shall remember that.

We need only keep in mind that "we know a tree by its fruit."  The Buddha sangha today demonstrates no superior fruit (maha-phala); therefore they are just people who found a livelihood by putting on the robes, and pretending to be holy.