Me & BV

[Benj]

A discussion which arose between me and one of Bhante Vimilaramsi's people via youtube comments

What do you think? Feel free to critique my critique, I'm still learning how to approach these issues.

Me

'there is one type of meditation, and that is TWIM'...?? which incorporates a 'spiritual friend' a '6R' system and to 'leave the breath alone'. Three ideas which are not mentioned in the suttas. There certainly is one type of mediation, and that is called Jhana. I don't doubt this is helpful for some, but we need to be clear that Vimalaramsi is not teaching as it is outlined in the Suttas. Creating new practice strategies derived from one's personal interpretation of the suttas is how we ended up with the Visudhimagga in the first place. Over time, I feel 'TWIM' will become the Visudhimagga 2.0. From my own reading, it is clear that The Buddha gives equal importance to both breath and the brahmaviharas as objects of meditation. And as we all know well, the Buddha states that mindfulness of breath is the direct path. From my own practice it is clear that when one is in samma-samadhi which is fully established in the fourth jhana, the mind naturally sends out metta to the 6 directions, as this is a component innate within Samadhi (FYI Samadhi does not mean collectedness, it is gnostic mind). When the Buddha states that the jhanas are accompanied by the brahmaviharas, this is likely what he means. They accompany what you are doing. Practising metta as an object may bare fruit indeed. However, teaching others to leave the breath alone and stating that metta is the 'fastest way' is misleading. I have experienced results with both methods. Over all, I find Vimalaramsi's method directive and at the expense of personal expression and exploration. I feel the main advice to take from Vimalaramsi's message is to go and read the suttas, from then on it's up you. It's your journey after all.

BV

Bhante is certainly teaching Jhana as it is in the suttas by adding the tranquilize step.  He teaches Metta by pervading the 6 directions just like the suttas. Bhante teaches both breath and metta but has found metta to be faster and both lead to awakening - don't just look at the satipatthana sutta and its using breath. Many other suttas use the Brahmaviharas as the path through the jhanas- far more than breath.  At DSMC our students clearly make much faster progress through the jhanas with metta.  In just a week some will go through all of them with the added magic of the relax step. Come and try it for yourself before you judge it.

Me

I have tried it, for a year, my comments are a critique rather than a judgment. What I am attempting to illuminate is the problems with developing new and directive practice strategies based on one's own interpretation and telling others this is the best way. This, along with forming a new tradition with new commentary, feels like a repeat of everything that has come before. Another organised religious structure with it's own opinions. People need to be encouraged to read the suttas and encouraged to explore, practice and express themselves in any way they want. There is a formula in the suttas by which one can successfully navigate the jhanas, yes, however it is split up and requires time to bring it out. And yes it is not simply in the satipatthana Sutta. When one pieces it together, it is clear that whilst navigating the jhanas there is no object of meditation after the first jhana. There is also much more within jhana, nimitta for example and the fruit of the contemplative life, a wide rage of extra sensory phenomena (being able to leave the body for example) which is never mentioned by BV, but clearly described by the Buddha. And this is kind of the tip of the iceberg. What I am getting at is one needs to read the suttas for themselves, and at best, have plane clothed equally levelled person supporting that exploration. Not a another religious authority telling you what is going to happen. I learnt more in about jhana in a month reading and practising for myself, than I did in a year trying to do what I was being told to do. Doesn't that sound familiar?

BV

You don't understand that there is two types of jhana - you are still talking about absorption jhana - not "aware jhanas" which arise with the relax step. Nimitta is not taught in the suttas.  That is a misinterpretation of "light"  Nimitta means sign and that is part of the craving mind.   All I can tell you is that when practiced the way bhante teaches 30% of students get to the cessation experience just as explained and see the links of dependent origination during their experience.  Please read the new book The Path to Nibbana for how this happens - it is based on hundreds of students experiences.  You are not using the 6Rs which is part of Right Effort which is 1. Recognize there is an unwholesome state 2. Release and  relax tension and tightness/craving in that state 3. Bring up a wholesome state- Smile and bring up the feeling 4. Keep it going-return to your lovingkindness and your friend  - There it is Right Effort in the suttas -  Or the 6Rs.  Yes the Spiritual Friend is "kind of" from the Vissudhi Magga but Bhante added this to help you to develop enough power of mind to start where the suttas start in pervading the metta and the rest of the Brahma Viharas to the directions.  We have had several people discover this independently come to DSMC after reading the suttas and arriving at the exact practice that Bhante is teaching. They had the Aware Jhana arise and were shocked that this occurred so fast with the tranquilize step.  They then found out about Bhante who has refined it.  To summarize - its two types of jhana that is developed - one leads to the old yogi practices and other leads to nibbana.  In your next sitting just try the 6R process when a hindrance arises. Metta david@dhammasukha.org
 
Me

Thank you for the advice. However, you appear to have missed many of my points, expressed no interest in my findings, assumed I have misinterpreted the suttas and that my practice is wrong, and finally, opted for telling me what to do instead. Which essentially sums up my argument.
Reply
 
BV

Since you are unwilling to try the Bhante's method and  just voice opinions without trying it... I hear your points and they are the same old arguments. I did reply to your points. So we'll just agree to disagree.
Reply

Me

As I mentioned in my previous post, I have tried it for a year. And it may have been longer. I also did not say it was not effective, what I am attempting to highlight is how religious structures attempt control the path for others by only offering directive practice strategies based on newly constructed commentary, suppress valuable content and not listen to those who have different findings. It just feels the same as the institutions that BV turned away from. I have many more findings to back up my argument, but yes, we can agree to disagree. May your practise be fruitful.

[Jhanananda]

A discussion which arose between me and one of Bhante Vimilaramsi's people via youtube comments

What do you think? Feel free to critique my critique, I'm still learning how to approach these issues.

Me

'there is one type of meditation, and that is TWIM'...?? which incorporates a 'spiritual friend' a '6R' system and to 'leave the breath alone'. Three ideas which are not mentioned in the suttas. There certainly is one type of mediation, and that is called Jhana. I don't doubt this is helpful for some, but we need to be clear that Vimalaramsi is not teaching as it is outlined in the Suttas. Creating new practice strategies derived from one's personal interpretation of the suttas is how we ended up with the Visudhimagga in the first place. Over time, I feel 'TWIM' will become the Visudhimagga 2.0. From my own reading, it is clear that The Buddha gives equal importance to both breath and the brahmaviharas as objects of meditation. And as we all know well, the Buddha states that mindfulness of breath is the direct path. From my own practice it is clear that when one is in samma-samadhi which is fully established in the fourth jhana, the mind naturally sends out metta to the 6 directions, as this is a component innate within Samadhi (FYI Samadhi does not mean collectedness, it is gnostic mind). When the Buddha states that the jhanas are accompanied by the brahmaviharas, this is likely what he means. They accompany what you are doing. Practising metta as an object may bare fruit indeed. However, teaching others to leave the breath alone and stating that metta is the 'fastest way' is misleading. I have experienced results with both methods. Over all, I find Vimalaramsi's method directive and at the expense of personal expression and exploration. I feel the main advice to take from Vimalaramsi's message is to go and read the suttas, from then on it's up you. It's your journey after all.

I agree with a lot of what you say here, but a fine point that is critical to get is jhana is not a practice (magga).  It is an experience that is the fruit of practice (phala).

BV

Bhante is certainly teaching Jhana as it is in the suttas by adding the tranquilize step.  He teaches Metta by pervading the 6 directions just like the suttas. Bhante teaches both breath and metta but has found metta to be faster and both lead to awakening - don't just look at the satipatthana sutta and its using breath. Many other suttas use the Brahmaviharas as the path through the jhanas- far more than breath.  At DSMC our students clearly make much faster progress through the jhanas with metta.  In just a week some will go through all of them with the added magic of the relax step. Come and try it for yourself before you judge it. 

First they do not seem to understand what jhana is, as evidence it is unlikely that anyone would experience more than the first jhana in the first week of practice, unless they have been practicing for a long time.  I do; however, agree with their emphasis upon deep relaxation, because I find that samadhi from the 2nd jhana on requires skill with deep relaxation.  Where we really see how well a teacher understands jhana is to find out whether they get that the second jhana is all about stilling the mind.  If they do not get this, then they do not have jhana.

Me

I have tried it, for a year, my comments are a critique rather than a judgment. What I am attempting to illuminate is the problems with developing new and directive practice strategies based on one's own interpretation and telling others this is the best way. This, along with forming a new tradition with new commentary, feels like a repeat of everything that has come before. Another organised religious structure with it's own opinions. People need to be encouraged to read the suttas and encouraged to explore, practice and express themselves in any way they want. There is a formula in the suttas by which one can successfully navigate the jhanas, yes, however it is split up and requires time to bring it out. And yes it is not simply in the satipatthana Sutta. When one pieces it together, it is clear that whilst navigating the jhanas there is no object of meditation after the first jhana. There is also much more within jhana, nimitta for example and the fruit of the contemplative life, a wide rage of extra sensory phenomena (being able to leave the body for example) which is never mentioned by BV, but clearly described by the Buddha. And this is kind of the tip of the iceberg. What I am getting at is one needs to read the suttas for themselves, and at best, have plane clothed equally levelled person supporting that exploration. Not a another religious authority telling you what is going to happen. I learnt more in about jhana in a month reading and practising for myself, than I did in a year trying to do what I was being told to do. Doesn't that sound familiar?

I agree fully here.  We need only remind our self that "we know a tree by its fruit."  If BV does not understand the OOBE, then he does not understand the remaining 4 levels of samadhi.

BV

You don't understand that there is two types of jhana - you are still talking about absorption jhana - not "aware jhanas" which arise with the relax step. Nimitta is not taught in the suttas.  That is a misinterpretation of "light"  Nimitta means sign and that is part of the craving mind.   All I can tell you is that when practiced the way bhante teaches 30% of students get to the cessation experience just as explained and see the links of dependent origination during their experience.  Please read the new book The Path to Nibbana for how this happens - it is based on hundreds of students experiences.  You are not using the 6Rs which is part of Right Effort which is 1. Recognize there is an unwholesome state 2. Release and  relax tension and tightness/craving in that state 3. Bring up a wholesome state- Smile and bring up the feeling 4. Keep it going-return to your lovingkindness and your friend  - There it is Right Effort in the suttas -  Or the 6Rs.  Yes the Spiritual Friend is "kind of" from the Vissudhi Magga but Bhante added this to help you to develop enough power of mind to start where the suttas start in pervading the metta and the rest of the Brahma Viharas to the directions.  We have had several people discover this independently come to DSMC after reading the suttas and arriving at the exact practice that Bhante is teaching. They had the Aware Jhana arise and were shocked that this occurred so fast with the tranquilize step.  They then found out about Bhante who has refined it.  To summarize - its two types of jhana that is developed - one leads to the old yogi practices and other leads to nibbana.  In your next sitting just try the 6R process when a hindrance arises. Metta david@dhammasukha.org

This is a concise collection of where BV gets completely lost.  In the suttas there is only one type of jhana, not 2 or more.

 
Me
Thank you for the advice. However, you appear to have missed many of my points, expressed no interest in my findings, assumed I have misinterpreted the suttas and that my practice is wrong, and finally, opted for telling me what to do instead. Which essentially sums up my argument.

Very good.  Mainstream religions tend to not like people thinking for themselves.

BV

Since you are unwilling to try the Bhante's method and  just voice opinions without trying it... I hear your points and they are the same old arguments. I did reply to your points. So we'll just agree to disagree.

Or completely ignore the issues commonly raised against the DV version of dhamma.

Me

As I mentioned in my previous post, I have tried it for a year. And it may have been longer. I also did not say it was not effective, what I am attempting to highlight is how religious structures attempt control the path for others by only offering directive practice strategies based on newly constructed commentary, suppress valuable content and not listen to those who have different findings. It just feels the same as the institutions that BV turned away from. I have many more findings to back up my argument, but yes, we can agree to disagree. May your practise be fruitful.

Good work.  I find critical thinking will lead to the truth; therefore, critical thinking should never be suspended; and we should therefore be suspicious of any organization that requires us to suspend our judgement.

[Benj]

Thanks J, 

I was beginning to feel like I went in too strong or that somehow I was mistaken in my view. I think this comes about because there are a couple of things I agree with within BV's method, and there retorts leave you feeling like you don't know anything. Overall, this is not the radical resurgent branch of Buddhism that it wants to be, it just feels like history repeating itself. And they simply cannot see it.

Very grateful to be able to here  for support with things like this.

[Jhanananda]

Thanks J, 

I was beginning to feel like I went in too strong or that somehow I was mistaken in my view. I think this comes about because there are a couple of things I agree with within BV's method, and there retorts leave you feeling like you don't know anything. Overall, this is not the radical resurgent branch of Buddhism that it wants to be, it just feels like history repeating itself. And they simply cannot see it.

I could not agree with you more, especially when BV came here and treated me like I was clueless, and tried to hijack this forum.  Clearly he proved not to understand the dhamma as well as he believed he did.

Very grateful to be able to here  for support with things like this.

You are welcome.  My goal is to help each person who arrives here who clearly has some depth in meditation, to feel welcome, and a contributing member; instead of a moron who is only valued for his/her donation stream.

[Benj]

Yeah I had read that on your site. The critical look at the modern jhana teachers that you wrote was very eye opening.

[Benj]

The Gunaratana entry was particularly interesting to me. I read his book 'Beyond Mindfulness, and introductory guide to deeper states of meditation' some time ago. It's funny because I wanted to know more about jhana, but since reading, it has sat on my shelf and contributed nothing to my practice. When you look closely at it you can see that BG does not use the words 'in my experience....' 'In my meditation....' 'I feel that.....' at all, throughout the entire work. It actually appears that he is just regurgitating information. In one chapter he even says 'people report that....'. People report!? what do you report? Do you have anything to report? This inability to express one's own subjective experience of deep meditation is a classic hallmark to avoid. And those who subscribe to religious organisations, are the one's who do not think to question this, as they are desperate to be told what is going to happen.

[bodhimind]

Just wanted to add this here.

In GWV, we too, focus on cultivating brahma viharas: http://www.greatwesternvehicle.org/jhana&brhamaviharas.htm

And we too, focus on relaxation: http://www.greatwesternvehicle.org/lyingdownmeditation.htm

Nothing of which is 'new' in BV method frankly. Well it does remind people to relax, relax, relax through his 6R method, we make it a less 'cognitive' process here by emphasizing letting go both in body and mind to enter deeper absorption states.

Why try to pigeon-hole things into a particular 'method'? If it's genuine dharma, it'll work. I personally don't get involved in trying to disprove someone's work, I'd let the fruits speak for themselves. If BV produces students with fruits, then so be it. So does GWV.

I mean, it's good that someone is teaching Dependent Origination and focusing on the N8P. At least he's starting people off in the doctrine. But if it doesn't produce fruit, the real seekers will leave anyway... just time wasted.

[Benj]

Thanks Bodhimind.

Your right, and I appreciate your view. After this to and fro with one of BV's people, I feel I may sway the same way. Perhaps there's little point challenging something head on like this. And after all, BV was the first teacher who taught me to go to the suttas, so perhaps I should be more grateful for that and just move on.

[Frederick]

Great thread. I just bought this book a few months ago. I'm about 75% through it. It's a fun read. Overall, I just need to practice more. I think I know what I need to do by now.