Dialogue with Gary Weber

[Alexander]

Hello Jeff, what do you think of this dialogue I had with Gary Weber? Had this about two years ago I believe... wonder what your comments would be on the nondual state, or the other ideas.

Hey Gary,

I have been engaged in this spiritual "work" for many years and around 2017 discovered you. I must say I'm very fond of you and Rich and admire your intellectual maturity, clarity, and simplicity.

So, I took on the self-inquiry practice very seriously and it helped me overcome some very negative mental habits I had. I got rid of the internal monologue and established a more or less mentally quiet state. But, then I discontinued the practice, thinking that was it. I have been thinking about this again and wanted to get a few thoughts from you - as they might be what I need to get through to the last step.

1. My first question is: is there something higher than this (this relatively quiet, thoughtless state)? In other words, if I keep at the practice will I lose a sense of identification with "me" and morph over to a state of "universal I" where I feel this as a real and true concrete reality? (I also want to emphasize the importance of this being real and permanent - not just a temporary thing or a case of mental projection.)

2. My second question is what your experience is with the out-of-body experience. Are you familiar with Robert Monroe or William Buhlman, do you have direct experience with it yourself, and if so what do you think? The Buddha himself had a cosmology of a vast multidimensional universe, with devas, demons, and ghosts, and the Maharshi himself makes references to the OOBE and a locale there, and I was interested how you might connect this to nondualism.

3. From here I was interested in your thoughts on the after-death state. If one dies in a state of nondual consciousness, after death one would go on to the formless (?) reality, which the Buddhists and Hindus called Nirvana or sama-samadhi correct? And this would be preferable, apparently, to the after-death state of "heaven"? What do you think?

4. And my last question is your thoughts on reincarnation. I read one post of yours which surprised me as I recall you saying you didn't believe in it. Is this true and if so can you clarify (and perhaps give your reasoning / experience)? What do you take as that which is "reincarnated" - is it a summary of our actions, a spirit, a self - or do you really not subscribe to it?

Thanks, Gary, and keep up the great work you are doing!

-Alexander

Q1.  Yes, if you restart and continue diligently with your self-inquiry, you will "lose a sense of identification with 'me' and morph over to a state of 'universal I' where I feel this as a real and true concrete reality" ... "real and permanent."  Your stopping self-inquiry is very typical. 

The article "Self-inquiry vs. the egos/Is - how it works - the neuroscience" describes how self-inquiry is a battle between the "antis" and the "pros" for continuing the process.   

How far one gets is determined by which group of Alexanders (there are hundreds of them) assembles the largest constituency at any given time as the process unfolds.   It is a battle between the increasing clarity, positive experiences and decreased suffering of the "pros" against the fears of the "antis" with this terrifying (to them) loss of their numbers and power. 

It is a battle between the desire for an end to suffering against the fears which are encountered.  How far the process goes is defined by that balance.     

As the post explains, this is how all of our decisions are made "off line" in the "elephant" part of the brain which has 500,000x the computing power of the conscious, "on line," "riders," whose chattering back and forth has no real meaning.

On Q2, never heard of Monroe or Buhlman.  Have heard of what folk believe that Buddha said, although virtually all competent linguistic scholars state that we have no idea what Buddha actually said.  This is covered in the aforementioned "Why Buddhism is True: The Science and Philosophy of Meditation and Enlightenment."

On Ramana's experiences, yes have read about them. 

Re: personal experience, yes, it happens, logically, as one progresses.   "i" have been sitting on the ceiling of the Zendo during a Zen session and watching what was going on below, for example.  As to relating to "nonduality" as one becomes more clear on the perception that "i am not this body", it is an obvious conclusion.  This was covered in my latest book, "Evolving Beyond Thought: Updating Your Brain's Software."

On Q3 and Q4, it is a religious fantasy to believe that "you" go to heaven, Nirvana, Hell, or "reincarnate" as some improved version of yourself with a little more work to do.  The best book on this is Wright's "The Evolution of God".  The article "no sin, no karma, no good deeds, no bad deeds" deals with some of this.   

Since you have found Rich's and my dialogues to be useful, the article "Predestination, free will, control and the illusion of time" covers this, particularly the latter parts where we discuss the Higgs field and "She."
 
As mentioned in other venues, as there is less and less of "i," there is nothing left of any consequence to be retained that hasn't already been incorporated "real time" into the aggregate "learning" for benefit of Her evolution, so that "ripple" in the Field is just absorbed into the "Field of Universal Consciousness/Her."

This is true for "everyone," whether they do self-inquiry or not.  The "i" is an illusion that all humans have... there's nothing really there as our neuroscience and personal experience can confirm. 

Going forward, as you know, there are lots of resources, all free in some format.  There is a lot there, which begs the question of how one decides which one to listen to.  In my experience, the "right" resource at that time will "feel" different from all others.  The article "Feeling your way to nondual awakening" can give some helpful tips.

It is important to keep in mind my oft-repeated theme of none of us being in control of "these lives."

Ramana Maharshi and Albert Einstein discovered the same thing:

"Questioner:  How did you make your amazing discoveries?

"Einstein replied:  'I claim credit for nothing.  Everything is determined, the beginning as well as the end, by forces over which we have no control.  It is determined for the insect, as well as for the star.  Human beings, vegetables, or cosmic dust, we all dance to a mysterious tune, intoned in the distance by an invisible piper.'

"Questioner:  'Are only the important things in a person's life, such as their main occupation or profession, predetermined, or are trifling acts also, such as taking a cup of water, or moving from one part of the room to another?'

"To which Ramana replied: Everything is predetermined.'"

Trust this is useful.

Stillness and letting go
Gary

[Jhanananda]

Thank you, Alexander, for posting your dialog with Gary Weber on the topic of nondualism.  I know we have had other dialogs here on nondualism, but I was surprised to find that we had not created a section here for this topic, so I started one, and moved your enquiry to it here.

My primry critique nondualism is there are esentialy two basic forms that nondualism takes.  One is contemplative and the other is strictly cognitive.  My essential position on contemplative nondualism is any contemplative that seeks depth is essentially nondual because the experience of depth in meditation produces progressively nondual states where the identity is shed in layers as one enters into progressively deeper states.

My critique of cognitive nondualism is it is simply superficial and represents purely a cognitive effort of self enquiry.  Here cognitive nondualism becomes simply a trick of the ego in pretending it is nondual.  One cannot truely shed the identity by using the mind to attack it.  And, one is not going to shed the mind or identity when one only resides on the surface, which is where cognitive nondualism. In conclusion without cultivating deep meditaiton states one is forever stuck in the superficial mind of pretence.

Just because Gary Weber had a single OOBE experience while attending a Zen meditation retreat does not say much for Gery Weber's otherwise superficial pursuit of the nondual state.  After all, Zen completely rejects all forms of deep meditation after the stilling of the mind, and they believe the stilling of the mind is all too rare an experience, thus Zen Buddhism is fairly superficial, but at least they practice meditation, but all the while doing everything they can to avoid depth in medititation.  Cognitive Nondualism is the same way, it resides forever on the surface mind because they do not practice meditation, and therefore have no idea of depth in meditation.