Author Topic: Can arahants be hostile?  (Read 12689 times)

Soren

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Re: Can arahants be hostile?
« Reply #15 on: May 21, 2013, 11:56:56 PM »
Quote
As I said above, my journey was better informed by not assuming that the progenitors of all of the religions were frauds, and the only real deal was Siddhartha Gautama.  In stead I resorted to the conclusion that all religions are frauds, because they are run by frauds; however, most, if not all religions, were founded by genuine enlightened teachers; however enlightenment is not a black and white issue, but it has shades of gray.  Those shades of gray are represented by the 8 stages of the religions experience, and the other superior fruit (maha-phala) of the contemplative life.  So, perhaps not all of the progenitors of all of the religions made it all of the way to the 8th stage of the religious experience, but most of them manifested some portion of it; and most religions have traditionally misinterpreted their progenitor's life and teachings, so we cannot judge the progenitor on the nonsense that is commonly passed for his/her life and teachings.  So, let us not obsess over the human teacher: Siddhartha, Jesus, Mohammed, Jeffrey, etc.; and let us take the good, leave the bad, and do our best to manifest in the here and now whatever is noble.
Jhananda, I understand your life story and beliefs (believe me, I have read the website) and respect and agree with very much of it. I would like you to directly answer this question though, because it still irks me very much: do you have ill-will?

The reason that I think it is important is because if you do then it means you aren't genuinely enlightened, and if you aren't genuinely enlightened I see no reason to trust your wisdom and judgments on important matters like the religious experience, jhana, etc..

To state my honest beliefs, it seems like you do have ill-will. For example, you seem to hold onto the slights others have made against you for a long time. Bhante Gunaratana, who may have treated you badly, doesn't seem to have been forgiven in your mind. Personally, I make no claims of enlightenment, but even I would not be able to do what seems like hold a grudge for that long. I would, instead, to prove a point focus on directing metta towards him.
« Last Edit: May 22, 2013, 02:42:01 AM by Soren »

Jhanananda

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Re: Can arahants be hostile?
« Reply #16 on: May 22, 2013, 01:39:21 AM »
The point is that whether or not Jeff Brooks is a cult guru you are using the same obviously unfair "justification tactics" that cults do.
Well, Soren, the thing to get is I am not selling a personality cult.  Buddhism, Hinduism, Christianity, and Islam are personality cults.  I do not recommend being a part of a personality cult, because it does not seem to lead to liberation and enlightenment.

I also do not hold ill-will toward anyone, so I am not sure where you got that I have a grudge against Bhante Gunaratana?  However, I can see why people who do not value critical thinking, unpacking one's belief systems and self-examination; would think that exposing the dysfunctional nature of my family of origin, or the many translation errors I have revealed, would simply dismiss me as a malcontent.

However, I am not here to convince you or anyone else that I am enlightened.  My work is all about inspiring people to lead a rigorous, ethical, self-aware contemplative life; which I believe is a definition of the "righteous life."  And, I know from doing so that by following such a righteous life one can commune directly with the sacred through cultivating the religious experience; and by so doing one will be freed from suffering, addictions, anxieties; and find spiritual awakening and enlightenment.
« Last Edit: May 22, 2013, 02:34:03 AM by Jhanananda »
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pj

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Re: Can arahants be hostile?
« Reply #17 on: July 29, 2013, 02:35:40 AM »
I thought this sutta might be helpful.
 
Taken from access to insight:
ยง 44. {Iti 2.17; Iti 38}   
[Alternate translation: Ireland]
This was said by the Blessed One, said by the Arahant, so I have heard: "Monks, there are these two forms of the Unbinding property. Which two? The Unbinding property with fuel remaining, & the Unbinding property with no fuel remaining.

And what is the Unbinding property with fuel remaining? There is the case where a monk is an arahant whose fermentations have ended, who has reached fulfillment, finished the task, laid down the burden, attained the true goal, ended the fetter of becoming, and is released through right gnosis. His five sense faculties still remain and, owing to their being intact, he is cognizant of the agreeable & the disagreeable, and is sensitive to pleasure & pain. His ending of passion, aversion, & delusion is termed the Unbinding property with fuel remaining.[1]

And what is the Unbinding property with no fuel remaining? There is the case where a monk is an arahant whose fermentations have ended, who has reached fulfillment, finished the task, laid down the burden, attained the true goal, ended the fetter of becoming, and is released through right gnosis. For him, all that is sensed, being unrelished, will grow cold right here. This is termed the Unbinding property with no fuel remaining."[2]


These two         proclaimed
            by the one with vision,
Unbinding properties   the one independent,
            the one who is Such:[3]
one property, here in this life
with fuel remaining
   from the destruction
   of the guide to becoming,
and that with no fuel remaining,
   after this life,
in which all becoming
   totally ceases.

Those who know
this state uncompounded,
their minds released
   through the destruction
   of the guide to becoming,
they, attaining the Teaching's core,
   pleased with ending,
have abandoned all becoming:
      they, the Such.
Notes
1, 2.
With fuel remaining (sa-upadisesa) and with no fuel remaining (anupadisesa): The analogy here is to a fire. In the first case, the flames are out, but the embers are still glowing. In the second, the fire is so thoroughly out that the embers have grown cold. The "fuel" here is the five aggregates (see the Glossary). While the arahant is still alive, he/she still experiences the five aggregates, but they do not burn with the fires of passion, aversion, or delusion. When the arahant passes away, there is no longer any experience of aggregates here or anywhere else. For a discussion of this point, see The Mind Like Fire Unbound, pp. 21-37.
3.
Such (tadi): An adjective to describe one who has attained the goal. It indicates that the person's state is undefinable and not subject to change or influence of any sort.




Also, I do not believe it is relevant whether or not one believe's a teacher to be an arahant.  What matters is that their advice/guidance constantly is confirmed by one's experience.  Whether or not Jeffrey Brook's teachings are true does not depend on him being fully enlightened, rather it depends on reality.  I think the focus should be on using the things he teaches as tools, truly trying them out.  If they don't work, toss them out!  If they do work, continue investigating.  One can discover the truth this way without needing any sort of blind faith.

That being said I am quite certain he has some high level of attainment, if not full enlightenment since his descriptions seem to precisely confirm my experience.

stugandolf

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Re: Can arahants be hostile?
« Reply #18 on: July 29, 2013, 02:47:26 PM »
Having retreated 3 times with Jeff,  I also attest that his advise on navigating the jhanas is invaluable.  The June 2013 GWV retreat helped me dream more vividly than ever - I also direct dreams more than before.  At the June 2012 GWV I mentioned I got headaches - now at the retreat 2013, I experienced the chakras without any pain by going through equanimity before the gentle, pleasant, charisms of the 3rd eye and onto a flow of energy streaming up through the crown chakra.  Jeff encouraged me to start a blog which I plan to do when the time is ripe.  Stu P.S. I have meditated since 1974.