Developing jhanas to understand higher fetters

[Tad]

First of all, it is great to see you back online, Jhananda.

I wanted to ask about the below sutta. Would you explain more what Buddha meant when he taught to develop jhanas for understanding the higher fetters? How are we to use jhanas for such purpose?

Jhanasamyutta (SN 9.53)
"Bhikkhus, there are these five higher fetters.  What five?  Lust for form, lust for the formless, conceit, restlessness, ignorance.  These are the five higher fetters.  The four absorptions (jhanas) are to be developed for direct knowledge of these five higher fetters, for the full understanding of them, for their utter destruction, for their abandoning."

[Jhanananda]

Thank you, Tad, for expressing your kind thoughts.

Regarding developing jhana to overcome the "higher fetters" we have to keep in mind that the 4 Noble Truths drive the entire thesis of Siddhartha Gautama, which basically states craving is the cause of our suffering.  Craving includes everything that keeps us prisoners to the material world, and identity is the central cause.  As we have discussed here many times, identity comes in layers and involves many aspects of the psyche, which includes a sense of a material body, but can also include a sense of an immaterial body; and ignorance is not understanding that we are not material beings, and not understanding the 4 noble truths. I hope this response helps you meditate deeply.

[Tad]

Jhananda,

thanks. The way you summed up the essence of the 4 noble truths is definitely helpful. Now I will try to narrow down my question to one specific part in the sutta. Where Buddha says "for direct knowledge of these five higher fetters", what did he mean from the technical perspective? Does it mean that experience of jhanas naturally lead to understanding the higher fetters as long as we  practice within the framework of the 4 noble truths? Or do we need to pay attention to certain experiences while in jhana to get to direct understanding of the fetters?

[Alexander]

Jhananda,

thanks. The way you summed up the essence of the 4 noble truths is definitely helpful. Now I will try to narrow down my question to one specific part in the sutta. Where Buddha says "for direct knowledge of these five higher fetters", what did he mean from the technical perspective? Does it mean that experience of jhanas naturally lead to understanding the higher fetters as long as we  practice within the framework of the 4 noble truths? Or do we need to pay attention to certain experiences while in jhana to get to direct understanding of the fetters?

I feel as I have progressed through the spiritual life I have grown in wisdom & (in reference to your question) morality. For example, the sensual lust and malice I had when I was a young person do not arise in me now. In a similar way, I know when I interact with institutional religion or partake in a Catholic ritual there is not much of value going on. I give this example as I know those are 3 of the fetters the Buddha discusses. I also recall sensuality and ill will were two of the most important fetters: those that tie in directly to material/immaterial rebirth.

The main thing is to be sincere... to seek... to be humble... to be discerning of teachers... to open oneself up to intuition and positive influence... to avoid compromising oneself... and the process unfolds naturally.

This topic is an elusive thing of course... as how do you identify/qualify someone who has a fetter vs someone who does not? If you see them in public, how do you distinguish them? Would they behave differently? Look different? I think that elusive element to it is a part of the mystery of this interesting world we are inhabiting...

[Tad]

Alexander, what you describe seems to be the results of life long practice of 8th fold path. How would you say deep meditation has helped you in understanding attachments/cravings? Not reducing or eradicating, but specifically understanding them.

[Jhanananda]

For me constantly seeking depth in meditation has taught me to cling to nothing, whether it is a lower or higher fetter.

[Alexander]

Alexander, what you describe seems to be the results of life long practice of 8th fold path. How would you say deep meditation has helped you in understanding attachments/cravings? Not reducing or eradicating, but specifically understanding them.

I do not know if they are specifically jhanic per se, but over the years I have experienced moments of rapture, self-transcendence, or altered perception... states in which I have experienced an upsurge of emotion (which I would characterize as higher or religious emotion)... I do feel in those times (similar to what Jeff wrote) individual selfhood in the conventional human sense is not of great significance, or (perhaps more accurately) there is a divine unity to experience...

If you have ever tried drugs or mind altering substances that is the closest analogy I would give to describe it... If you listen to Joe Rogan for example he speaks about how an experience of one of those drugs can have long term consequences for your perception... You are not able to invest so heavily in the outward forms of behavior, in the artifice/contrivance of everyday life. I would say those experiences have altered my sense of morality. I am not as arrogant as others I believe. I am more tolerant and see how culture and environment form most of our behavior. I am more connected (?) with the underlying essence behind behavior.

[Tad]

Regarding developing jhana to overcome the "higher fetters" we have to keep in mind that the 4 Noble Truths drive the entire thesis of Siddhartha Gautama, which basically states craving is the cause of our suffering.  Craving includes everything that keeps us prisoners to the material world, and identity is the central cause.  As we have discussed here many times, identity comes in layers and involves many aspects of the psyche, which includes a sense of a material body, but can also include a sense of an immaterial body; and ignorance is not understanding that we are not material beings, and not understanding the 4 noble truths. I hope this response helps you meditate deeply.

Jhananda, Ive been thinking about how you explained 4 noble truths in this post. I had to come back and reread again. It is absolutely the most powerful summary of 4 noble truths that Ive read/heard. It really resonates with the way mind mind is conditioned and shows the direction of the path.

[Jhanananda]

Thank you, Tad