The Noble Eightfold Path

[Jhanananda]

The 8 liberations as translated by you above, and the other translations are beyond anything I've experienced. I've only experienced the 1st jhana. Is it possible to explain them so someone who hasn't experienced them can understand what they mean?

The problem with the religious experience (samadhi) is it is as abstract an experience that anyone could ever have, so all any of use can do is describe it in our own words; and those who have actually had the experience will recognize it.  So, take all of these translations, case histories, and descriptions, as a finger pointing at the moon. 

I am confident that in your ardent and disciplined internal search in this lifetime you will have the genuine religious experience (samadhi).  From reading these description you will know without a doubt that you have had the real deal. Until then, it is just intellectual curiosity.  So, until then, keep up your meditation practice, your discipline, your reading, your asking questions.

[Michel]

I am confident that in your ardent and disciplined internal search in this lifetime you will have the genuine religious experience (samadhi).  From reading these description will you know without a doubt that you have had the real deal. Until then, it is just intellectual curiosity.  So, until then, keep up your meditation practice, your discipline, your reading, your asking questions.

I too fell confident that I'm on the right path. I am learning bit by bit. It is good to have a true and proper road map for this path. Thank-you for providing us with one.

I might add that I think this Noble Eightfold Path is - vitally important - and should be thoroughly understood and mastered. It's what defines us as contemplatives and mystics; it's what we do each and every day. I am surprised that no one else seems to take interest in it.

[Jhanananda]

I too fell confident that I'm on the right path. I am learning bit by bit. It is good to have a true and proper road map for this path. Thank-you for providing us with one.

I might add that I think this Noble Eightfold Path is - vitally important - and should be thoroughly understood and mastered. It's what defines us as contemplatives and mystics; it's what we do each and every day. I am surprised that no one else seems to take interest in it.

There are a kit of people talking about the Noble Eightfold Path, but too few seem to understand it.  However, I agree with you, the Noble Eightfold Path is simply an excellent description of the contemplative life, so all true contemplatives will be following it; whether they know it or not.

[Michel]

I found this sutta to be particularly interesting. I think it's about Right Intention, the 2nd factor of the Noble Eightfold Path. Punna, a disciple of the Buddha, demonstrates that he has renounced his fear of death, and that he possesses an attitude of goodwill and harmlessness towards others no matter how horridly they might treat him. I think that Jesus had this attitude the day he was crucified.

Do you arahants or near-arahants out there possess a similar attitude?
 

“4Now that you have received this brief exhortation from me, Puṇṇa, in which country will you dwell?”

“5There is, venerable sir, a country named Sunaparanta. I will dwell there.”

“6Puṇṇa, the people of Sunaparanta are wild and rough. If they abuse and revile you, what will you think about that?”

“7Venerable sir, if the people of Sunaparanta abuse and revile me, then I will think: ‘These people of Sunaparanta are excellent, truly excellent, in that they do not give me a blow with the fist.’ Then I will think thus, Blessed One; then I will think thus, Fortunate One.”

“8But, Puṇṇa, if the people of Sunaparanta do give you a blow with the fist, what will you think about that?”

“9Venerable sir, if the people of Sunaparanta give me a blow with the fist, then I will think: ‘These people of Sunaparanta are excellent, truly excellent, in that they do not give me a blow with a clod.’ Then I will think thus, Blessed One; then I will think thus, Fortunate One.”

“10But, Puṇṇa, if the people of Sunaparanta do give you a blow with a clod, what will you think about that?”

“11Venerable sir, if the people of Sunaparanta give me a blow with a clod, then I will think: ‘These people of Sunaparanta are excellent, truly excellent, in that they do not give me a blow with a rod.’ sn.iv.62 Then I will think thus, Blessed One; then I will think thus, Fortunate One.”

“12But, Puṇṇa, if the people of Sunaparanta do give you a blow with a rod, what will you think about that?”

“13Venerable sir, if the people of Sunaparanta give me a blow with a rod, then I will think: ‘These people of Sunaparanta are excellent, truly excellent, in that they do not stab me with a knife.’ Then I will think thus, Blessed One; then I will think thus, Fortunate One.”

“14But, Puṇṇa, if the people of Sunaparanta do stab you with a knife, what will you think about that?”

“15Venerable sir, if the people of Sunaparanta stab me with a knife, then I will think: ‘These people of Sunaparanta are excellent, truly excellent, in that they do not take my life with a sharp knife.’ Then I will think thus, Blessed One; then I will think thus, Fortunate One.”

“16But, Puṇṇa, if the people of Sunaparanta do take your life with a sharp knife, what will you think about that?”

“17Venerable sir, if the people of Sunaparanta take my life with a sharp knife, then I will think: ‘There have been disciples of the Blessed One who, being repelled, humiliated, and disgusted by the body and by life, sought for an assailant. But I have come upon this assailant even without a search.’ Then I will think thus, Blessed One; then I will think thus, Fortunate One.”

“18Good, good, Puṇṇa! Endowed with such self-control and peacefulness, you will be able to dwell in the Sunaparanta country. Now, Puṇṇa, you may go at your own convenience.”

19Then, having delighted and rejoiced in the Blessed One’s statement, the Venerable Puṇṇa rose from his seat, paid homage to the Blessed One, sn.iv.63 and departed, keeping him on his right. He then set his lodging in order, took his bowl and outer robe, and set out to wander towards the Sunaparanta country. Wandering by stages, he eventually arrived in the Sunaparanta country, where he dwelt. Then, during that rains, the Venerable Puṇṇa established five hundred male lay followers and five hundred female lay followers in the practice, and he himself, during that same rains, realized the three true knowledges. And during that same rains he attained final Nibbāna.

20Then a number of bhikkhus approached the Blessed One … and said to him: “Venerable sir, the clansman named Puṇṇa, who was given a brief exhortation by the Blessed One, has died. What is his destination? What is his future bourn?”

“21Bhikkhus, the clansman Puṇṇa was wise. He practised in accordance with the Dhamma and did not trouble me on account of the Dhamma. The clansman Puṇṇa has attained final Nibbāna.”

[Jhanon]

It is difficult to say. I just discussed this on another forum, how if someone were to punch me, I wouldn't punch them back. However, I would avoid danger by running--if it seemed this body was to be destroyed. I would do this for the same reason that Jhananda took action against the individuals trying to hurt him. To keep the body alive in order to help others find their way to enlightenment.

I am not an arahant. However, I appear to be an anagami. I've reflected on this and asked many people for their opinions over the last month. I have fear, and therefor would run from danger of death if, through direct knowing, it was known to be more likely to offer enlightenment to others. But if death would result in more, then it may be i would take death.

Socrates' final days are also good to review around this subject.

[Michel]

Our friend Punna in the sutta seems to be totally passive. Could he not kill in order to defend himself? But that could be just him.

The first precept is to abstain from killing, as well as a factor of right action. But is this a guideline?

I wonder if an arahant is capable of murder? It's not hard to imagine all kinds of scenarios and situations where such a deed would be the most effective and only thing to do in order to prevent some very negative outcome, either to oneself or others. In the suttas there is no mention of such a possibility for an arahant.

[Jhanon]

I do not think an arahant is capable of intentional killing. Myself, I wouldn't attempt to kill someone to defend myself. Nor do I think killing even the most evil individuals is an option. Evil people cause suffering which drive humans into the Path.

[Jhanon]

An additional anecdote on how I know this. In my past lives, if I remember correctly, when it was a choice between my death and the death of others; I chose my own.

[Michel]

Thank-you, Jhanon. That's what I was hoping to hear, I'm glad it works that way. That's what my gut is telling me. As I develop spiritually I hope to develop a deep understanding of this. Maybe Obi-Wan Kenobi  was incapable of killing Darth Vader for this reason as well. ( Hey, I just used an emoticon for the first time ever. I've always thought that that they were kinda goofy.)

[Jhanananda]

Our friend Punna in the sutta seems to be totally passive. Could he not kill in order to defend himself? But that could be just him.

The first precept is to abstain from killing, as well as a factor of right action. But is this a guideline?

I wonder if an arahant is capable of murder? It's not hard to imagine all kinds of scenarios and situations where such a deed would be the most effective and only thing to do in order to prevent some very negative outcome, either to oneself or others. In the suttas there is no mention of such a possibility for an arahant.

It depends upon the context, and the period.  It takes insight to know what one should do.

[Jhanon]

I am going to have to defer to Jhananda. Although in most cases I would say what I have said, his answer trumps the one I provided. The Bhagavad Gita has opened me up to such possibilities as you are contemplating, Michel.

Regarding the Force and emoticons, I can only say thank you for brightening my day 

[Michel]

It depends upon the context, and the period.  It takes insight to know what one should do.

That's interesting. Is there a historical example?

[Michel]

Regarding the Force and emoticons, I can only say thank you for brightening my day 

Yes, I am an emotional iceberg. But I'm slowly beginning to thaw with the heat of jhana.

[Jhanon]

Regarding the Force and emoticons, I can only say thank you for brightening my day 

Yes, I am an emotional iceberg. But I'm slowly beginning to thaw with the heat of jhana.

I understand.

[Michel]

I thought I'd make some changes to "Right Mindfulness" in our interpretation of the N8P which I base on the Mahasatipatthana Sutta, DN 22.

Old version:

7. Right Mindfulness and self-awareness (samma-sati) – The Four Foundations of Mindfulness:

1) Mindful contemplation of the body (kaya)
2) Mindful contemplation of feeling-sensations (vedana) -- pleasant, unpleasant, neutral (the triggers for the three unwholesome roots)
3) Mindful  contemplation of mind-states (citta) moods - the Six Unwholesome and Wholesome Roots: greed, aversion, and delusion, and their opposites: generosity, loving-kindness, wisdom
4) Mindful contemplation/Investigation of the dhammas (dhammas) - The Five Categories of Dhammas: the Five Hindrances, the Five Aggregates, the Six-sense Bases, the Seven Factors of Enlightenment, the Four Noble Truths

New version:

7. Right Mindfulness and self-awareness (samma-sati)  –  The Four Foundations of Mindfulness:

1) mindful contemplation of the body (kaya)
2) mindful contemplation of sensations (vedana) - pleasant, unpleasant, neutral (the triggers for greed, aversion and delusion)
3) mindful contemplation of mind states/moods (citta) - greed, aversion, delusion, and their opposites: non-greed, non-aversion, non-delusion
4) mindful contemplation/investigation of the Five Dhammas (dhammas):

The Five Hindrances - to be abandoned
The Five Clinging Aggregates - seen as arising and passing away; that they are  impermanent, suffering & non-self
The Six-sense Bases - awareness of any fetter generated by them; that they are impermanent, suffering & non-self
The Seven Factors of Enlightenment - to be developed
The Four Noble Truths - to be utterly understood

I hope everyone agrees.