Author Topic: J. Krishnamurti & Eckhart Tolle & non-dualism  (Read 153023 times)

Michel

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J. Krishnamurti & Eckhart Tolle & non-dualism
« on: November 09, 2013, 02:46:56 AM »
(Please note: I split and moved this topic from the Emily McGuire thread to its own thread)

Jhananda:
Quote
I met  J. Krishnamurti in 1976.  I find most non-dualism is mostly just another head game.  However, those who have genuine religious experiences tend to describe it in non-dual terms.
What do you think of him and his ideas?
« Last Edit: November 11, 2013, 01:40:42 AM by Jhanananda »

Jhanananda

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Re: J. Krishnamurti & Eckhart Tolle & non-dualism
« Reply #1 on: November 09, 2013, 02:05:45 PM »
What do you think of him and his ideas?

J. Krishnamurti seemed to have arrived at the same place as Eckhart Tolle, which is possibly the stilling of the mind and non-dual attainment of the second jhana.  Just remember:

Quote from: Jesus, the Maitreya Buddha (Luke 6:44).
"For each tree is known by its fruit.“
New International Version (©1984)

So, what fruit is Eckhart Tolle, and was J. Krishnamurti, known for? 

Quote from: Pali canon
The Seven Factors of Enlightenment (bojjhanga, sambojjhanaga)
#   English   Pali   Source
1   Mindfulness & concentration   sati   7th fold of N8P
2   Self-enquiry & Investigation of the way   dhamma-vicaya    siddhi
3   Energy    viriya, vîrya/ Kundalini   iddhi-páda
4    Bliss   piiti   1st jhana
5   Tranquility    passaddhi   2nd jhana
6   Absorption    samadhi   Jhana/samadhi 1-8
7   Equanimity    upekkha   3rd jhana

Quote from: Pali canon
11 Superior “fruit” (maha-phala) of the contemplative life, or types of higher wisdom, “knowledges”
1   Equanimity   upekkha
2   Fearlessness   nibbhaya; abhiiruka; nissaarajja; abhiita
3   No suffering   Asukhacaadukkha no unhappiness and no suffering
4   Absorption   jhana/samadhi
5   (OOB)   Manomaya "Mind-made body."
6   Clairaudience   dibba-sota Divine hearing
7   Mental telepathy   ceto-pariya-ñána “Knows the minds of others” or parassa ceto-pariya-ñána: 'penetrates the mind of others'
8   Recollection of past lives    s. Patisandhi, paticcasamuppada) pubbenivásánussati: 'remembrance of former births',
9   Clairvoyance, Divine seeing   dibba-cakkhu “sees beings passing away & re-appearing” (cutúpapáta-ñána)
10   Ends anxiety   The ending of the mental agitation (effluents)
11   Insight   nanadassana (knowledge (nana) and vision (dassana))

I would say at most they were known for three of the Seven Factors of Enlightenment (bojjhanga, sambojjhanaga).  What do you think?
#   English   Pali   Source
1   Mindfulness & concentration   sati   7th fold of N8P
2   Self-enquiry & Investigation of the way   dhamma-vicaya    siddhi
5   Tranquility    passaddhi   2nd jhana
« Last Edit: November 09, 2013, 06:06:02 PM by Jhanananda »
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Michel

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Re: J. Krishnamurti & Eckhart Tolle & non-dualism
« Reply #2 on: November 10, 2013, 12:17:40 AM »
Jhananda:
Quote
J. Krishnamurti seemed to have arrived at the same place as Eckhart Tolle, which is possibly the stilling of the mind and non-dual attainment of the second jhana... I would say at most they were known for three of the Seven Factors of Enlightenment (bojjhanga, sambojjhanaga).  What do you think?
#   English   Pali   Source
1   Mindfulness & concentration   sati   7th fold of N8P
2   Self-enquiry & Investigation of the way   dhamma-vicaya    siddhi
5   Tranquility    passaddhi   2nd jhana
Why would they not manifest the 4th factor, Bliss of the 2nd jhana; and the 6th factor, Absorption of the 2nd Jhana/Samadhi?

When I've been manic, I was not always in a state of delusional frenzy. I recall that during some of my episodes that I could be extremely relaxed, euphoric and grounded, and hardly anything could disturb me. I just enjoyed observing whatever was around me. When I was with people, I would seldom have the need to say anything; I would just look at people with a slight smile, and communicate with quite facial expressions. People liked this very much, they liked having me around, and I made friends easily at the cafes I frequented. Unfortunately it wasn't a stable state, and I would come down from the high and then go into a deep depression, accompanied by severe anxiety that could last for months.
« Last Edit: November 10, 2013, 12:59:52 AM by Michel »

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Re: J. Krishnamurti & Eckhart Tolle & non-dualism
« Reply #3 on: November 10, 2013, 02:07:20 AM »
Why would they not manifest the 4th factor, Bliss of the 2nd jhana;
To the best of my knowledge bliss and joy were not a characteristic of either person's discourse.
and the 6th factor, Absorption of the 2nd Jhana/Samadhi?
Good point, if they are indeed stilling their mind, then they have Samadhi as a factor of enlightenment/attainment.
When I've been manic, I was not always in a state of delusional frenzy. I recall that during some of my episodes that I could be extremely relaxed, euphoric and grounded, and hardly anything could disturb me. I just enjoyed observing whatever was around me. When I was with people, I would seldom have the need to say anything; I would just look at people with a slight smile, and communicate with quite facial expressions. People liked this very much, they liked having me around, and I made friends easily at the cafes I frequented. Unfortunately it wasn't a stable state, and I would come down from the high and then go into a deep depression, accompanied by severe anxiety that could last for months.
It is getting clear to me that you were certainly entering a religious experience (samadhi); however, you were oscillating, because you were not aware of how to stabilize your state, and you most likely had little support in stabilizing your state.

Please note I spent most of the day either packing, or traveling.  I am now in Tucson.  I expect to remain here a few days while I track down some needed parts for my new-to-me military surplus vehicle.  When I have acquired the necessary parts, then I plan to head back to Sedona.  I expect that Monday I will have completed my business here, so I expect to head back to Sedona Tuesday morning.
« Last Edit: November 16, 2013, 12:02:39 PM by Jhanananda »
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Michel

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Re: J. Krishnamurti & Eckhart Tolle & non-dualism
« Reply #4 on: November 10, 2013, 11:30:55 PM »
Quote
Quote from: Michel on November 09, 2013, 05:17:40 PM

Why would they not manifest the 4th factor, Bliss of the 2nd jhana;

Jhananda: To the best of my knowledge bliss and joy were not a characteristic of either person's discourse.
Some people on this forum think that Tolle is a level 2 mystic and not an Arahant, as he claims to be. How did everyone arrive at this conclusion?
« Last Edit: November 10, 2013, 11:49:19 PM by Michel »

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Re: J. Krishnamurti & Eckhart Tolle & non-dualism
« Reply #5 on: November 10, 2013, 11:54:13 PM »
Some people on this forum think that Tolle is a level 2 mystic and not an Arahant, as he claims to be. How did everyone arrive at this conclusion?
I certainly do not speak for everyone on this forum.  I speak for myself, and I keep reminding everyone...
Quote
Jesus, the Maitreya Buddha, said, (Luke 6:44).
"For each tree is known by its fruit.“
New International Version (©1984)
So, in Tolle's case we have to simply ask what fruit is he known for?  If Tolle claims that he is an Arahant, then, by definition, he has to be free of all addictions/sins/fetters.  So, is he known for being free of all addictions/sins/fetters?  I really have not studied Tolle, so I have no idea if he is; however, all I hear people speaking about is his form of non-dualism.  There is nothing in his work that suggests any more of the superior fruit (maha-phala) of attainment than we have already discussed.

So, you seem to be more familiar with his work.  Is there anything in his work that would lead you to believe that he is free of all addictions/sins/fetters? Does, he claim that by following his methodology anyone can be free of all addictions/sins/fetters? Has he spoken of the other superior fruit (maha-phala) of attainment?  Has he described the 8 stages of the religious experience (jhana, samadhi)?
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Michel

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Re: J. Krishnamurti & Eckhart Tolle & non-dualism
« Reply #6 on: November 11, 2013, 12:24:15 AM »
Jhananda:
Quote
I certainly do not speak for everyone on this forum.  I speak for myself, and I keep reminding everyone...
Noted.

Jhananda:
Quote
So, you seem to be more familiar with his work.  Is there anything in his work that would lead you to believe that he is free of all addictions/sins/fetters? Does, he claim that by following his methodology anyone can be free of all addictions/sins/fetters? Has he spoken of the other superior fruit (maha-phala) of attainment?  Has he described the 8 stages of the religious experience (jhana, samadhi)?
I'm almost finished reading his book "The Power of Now", and I haven't read the others. So far he hasn't demonstrated being free of addictions/sins/fetters. He hasn't shown he has attained the superior fruit (maha-phala) of attainment, and he hasn't described the 8 stages of the religious experience. If I find anything suggestive of his attainments, I'll post something. But thanks, Jhananda, for pointing out all the criteria for determining a person's level of attainment; I've learnt something. 

I think Tolle is worth reading for his interesting insights on being mindful in the present moment through ending the thought process, and just simply observing and accepting whatever experience one is having. It helps one to practice the 7th factor of the Eightfold Path, Right Mindfulness.
« Last Edit: November 11, 2013, 01:09:27 AM by Michel »

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Re: J. Krishnamurti & Eckhart Tolle & non-dualism
« Reply #7 on: November 11, 2013, 01:33:32 AM »
I'm almost finished reading his book "The Power of Now", and I haven't read the others... If I find anything suggestive of his attainments, I'll post something. But thanks, Jhananda, for pointing out all the criteria for determining a person's level of attainment; I've learnt something. 
You are welcome, and please do post anything here that you believe describes Tolle's attainments.
I think Tolle is worth reading for his interesting insights on being mindful in the present moment through ending the thought process, and just simply observing and accepting whatever experience one is having. It helps one to practice the 7th factor of the Eightfold Path, Right Mindfulness.
I agree.  In fact I would go further and say that his writing reflects more the actual attainment of the 2nd jhana, and a process of getting there, than any contemporary Buddhist writing I can think of.

(Please note: I split and moved this topic from the Emily McGuire thread to its own thread)
« Last Edit: November 11, 2013, 01:43:40 AM by Jhanananda »
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Michel

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Re: J. Krishnamurti & Eckhart Tolle & non-dualism
« Reply #8 on: November 22, 2013, 12:47:13 AM »
Below is Eckhart Toll's description of his moment of awakening from his book, "The Power of Now". From what I've read in three of his books he did not practice any form of meditation, or any discipline such as the Eightfold Path prior to what he calls his awakening. He simply spontaneously awoke into a state of peaceful equanimity which was brought about by a state of deep suicidal depression. Is this credible?

Eckhart Tolle:
Quote
    Until my thirtieth year, I lived in a state of almost continuous anxiety interspersed with periods of suicidal depression. It feels now as if I am talking about some past lifetime or somebody else's life.
   One night not long after my twenty-ninth birthday, I woke up in the early hours with a feeling of absolute dread. I had woken up with such a feeling many times before, but this
time it was more intense than it had ever been. The silence of the night, the vague outlines of the furniture in the dark room, the distant noise of a passing train - everything felt so alien, so hostile, and so utterly meaningless that it created in me a deep loathing of the world. The most loathsome thing of all, however, was my own existence. What was the point in continuing to live with this burden of misery? Why carry on with this continuous struggle? I could feel that a deep longing for annihilation, for nonexistence, was now becoming much stronger than the instinctive desire to continue to live. "I cannot live with myself any longer." This was the thought that kept repeating itself in my mind. Then suddenly I became aware of what a peculiar thought it was. "Am I one or two? If I cannot live with myself, there must be two of me: the ‘I’ and the ‘self’ that ‘I’ cannot live with." "Maybe," I thought, "only one of them is real."
   I was so stunned by this strange realization that my mind stopped. I was fully conscious, but there were no more thoughts. Then I felt drawn into what seemed like a vortex of energy. It was a slow movement at first and then accelerated. I was gripped by an intense fear, and
my body started to shake. I heard the words "resist nothing," as if spoken inside my chest. I could feel myself being sucked into a void. It felt as if the void was inside myself rather than outside. Suddenly, there was no more fear, and I let myself fall into that void. I have no recollection of what happened after that.
   I was awakened by the chirping of a bird outside the window. I had never heard such sound before. My eyes were still closed, and I saw the image of a precious diamond. Yes, if a diamond could make a sound, this is what it would be like. I opened my eyes. The first light of dawn was filtering through the curtains. Without any thought, I felt, I knew, that there is infinitely more to light than we realize. That soft luminosity filtering through the curtains was love itself. Tears came into my eyes. I got up and walked around the room. I recognized the room, and yet I knew that I had never truly seen it before. Everything was fresh and pristine, as if it had just come into existence. I picked up things, a pencil, an empty bottle, marveling at the beauty and aliveness of it all. That day I walked around the city in utter amazement at the miracle of life on earth, as if I had just been born into this world.
   For the next five months, I lived in a state of uninterrupted deep peace and bliss. After that, it diminished somewhat in intensity, or perhaps it just seemed to because it became my natural state. I could still function in the world, although I realized that nothing I ever did could possibly add anything to what I already had.
   I knew, of course, that something profoundly significant had happened to me, but I didn't understand it at all. It wasn't until several years later, after I had read spiritual texts and spent time with spiritual teachers, that I realized that what everybody was looking for had already happened to me. I understood that the intense pressure of suffering that night must have forced my consciousness to withdraw from its identification with the unhappy and deeply fearful self, which is ultimately a fiction of the mind. This withdrawal must have been so complete that this false, suffering self immediately collapsed, just as if a plug had been pulled out of an inflatable toy. What was left then was my true nature as the ever-present I am: consciousness in its pure state prior to identification with form. Later I also learned to go into that inner timeless and deathless realm that I had originally perceived as a void and remain fully conscious. I dwelt in states of such indescribable bliss and sacredness that even the original experience I just described pales in comparison. A time came when, for a while, I was left with nothing on the physical plane. I had no relationships, no job, no home, no socially defined identity. I spent almost two years sitting on park benches in a state of the
most intense joy.
   But even the most beautiful experiences come and go. More fundamental, perhaps, than any experience is the undercurrent of peace that has never left me since then. Sometimes it is very strong, almost palpable, and others can feel it too. At other times, it is somewhere in the background, like a distant melody.
   
« Last Edit: November 22, 2013, 01:06:26 AM by Michel »

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Re: J. Krishnamurti & Eckhart Tolle & non-dualism
« Reply #9 on: November 22, 2013, 02:05:36 AM »
Below is Eckhart Toll's description of his moment of awakening from his book, "The Power of Now". From what I've read in three of his books he did not practice any form of meditation, or any discipline such as the Eightfold Path prior to what he calls his awakening. He simply spontaneously awoke into a state of peaceful equanimity which was brought about by a state of deep suicidal depression. Is this credible?
I do not believe that it is reasonable to believe that one who does not lead a disciplined, rigorous, self-ware contemplative life becomes enlightened.  Therefore I do not accept claims of: being born enlightened, or experiencing instant enlightenment, nor receiving enlightenment through the touch or blessing of a saint or mystic.  Just remember that we know a tree by its fruit.  That fruit is the, the Fruit of the Contemplative Life.
Quote from: Eckhart Tolle:
    Until my thirtieth year, I lived in a state of almost continuous anxiety interspersed with periods of suicidal depression. It feels now as if I am talking about some past lifetime or somebody else's life.
While I can see how a life of anxiety would lead to a spiritual crisis, which could propel one into the contemplative life; however, I fail to see how a life filled with anxiety would lead directly to enlightenment.
Quote from: Eckhart Tolle:
One night not long after my twenty-ninth birthday, I woke up in the early hours with a feeling of absolute dread.
This actually reminds me of Ramana Maharshi's story.  I wonder if he borrowed it?
Quote from: Eckhart Tolle:
I had woken up with such a feeling many times before but this time it was more intense than it had ever been. The silence of the night, the vague outlines of the furniture in the dark room, the distant noise of a passing train - everything felt so alien, so hostile, and so utterly meaningless that it created in me a deep loathing of the world. The most loathsome thing of all, however, was my own existence. What was the point in continuing to live with this burden of misery? Why carry on with this continuous struggle? I could feel that a deep longing for annihilation, for nonexistence, was now becoming much stronger than the instinctive desire to continue to live. "I cannot live with myself any longer." This was the thought that kept repeating itself in my mind. Then suddenly I became aware of what a peculiar thought it was. "Am I one or two? If I cannot live with myself, there must be two of me: the ‘I’ and the ‘self’ that ‘I’ cannot live with." "Maybe," I thought, "only one of them is real."
This is classic non-dual inquiry.  I would bet that he had been reading Ramana Maharshi.
Quote from: Eckhart Tolle:
I was so stunned by this strange realization that my mind stopped. I was fully conscious, but there were no more thoughts.
So, here we can give him credit for an experience of the second stage of the religious experience (2nd jhana).
Quote from: Eckhart Tolle:
Then I felt drawn into what seemed like a vortex of energy. It was a slow movement at first and then accelerated. I was gripped by an intense fear, and my body started to shake. I heard the words "resist nothing," as if spoken inside my chest. I could feel myself being sucked into a void. It felt as if the void was inside myself rather than outside. Suddenly, there was no more fear, and I let myself fall into that void. I have no recollection of what happened after that.
Energy is virtue, virya, kundalini, Shakti, and the experience of energy typically begins to occur at the 3rd stage of the religious experience. So, here we can give him credit for an experience of the 3rd stage of the religious experience (3rd jhana).

Quote from: Eckhart Tolle:
I was awakened by the chirping of a bird outside the window. I had never heard such sound before. My eyes were still closed, and I saw the image of a precious diamond. Yes, if a diamond could make a sound, this is what it would be like. I opened my eyes. The first light of dawn was filtering through the curtains. Without any thought, I felt, I knew, that there is infinitely more to light than we realize. That soft luminosity filtering through the curtains was love itself. Tears came into my eyes. I got up and walked around the room. I recognized the room, and yet I knew that I had never truly seen it before. Everything was fresh and pristine, as if it had just come into existence. I picked up things, a pencil, an empty bottle, marveling at the beauty and aliveness of it all. That day I walked around the city in utter amazement at the miracle of life on earth, as if I had just been born into this world.
   For the next five months, I lived in a state of uninterrupted deep peace and bliss. After that, it diminished somewhat in intensity, or perhaps it just seemed to because it became my natural state. I could still function in the world, although I realized that nothing I ever did could possibly add anything to what I already had.
   I knew, of course, that something profoundly significant had happened to me, but I didn't understand it at all. It wasn't until several years later, after I had read spiritual texts and spent time with spiritual teachers, that I realized that what everybody was looking for had already happened to me. I understood that the intense pressure of suffering that night must have forced my consciousness to withdraw from its identification with the unhappy and deeply fearful self, which is ultimately a fiction of the mind. This withdrawal must have been so complete that this false, suffering self immediately collapsed, just as if a plug had been pulled out of an inflatable toy. What was left then was my true nature as the ever-present I am: consciousness in its pure state prior to identification with form.

A single religious experience can be so profound as to transform our point of view on life, and it seems to have done so for Mr. Tolle.
Quote from: Eckhart Tolle:
Later I also learned to go into that inner timeless and deathless realm that I had originally perceived as a void and remain fully conscious. I dwelt in states of such indescribable bliss and sacredness that even the original experience I just described pales in comparison. A time came when, for a while, I was left with nothing on the physical plane. I had no relationships, no job, no home, no socially defined identity. I spent almost two years sitting on park benches in a state of the most intense joy.
   But even the most beautiful experiences come and go. More fundamental, perhaps, than any experience is the undercurrent of peace that has never left me since then. Sometimes it is very strong, almost palpable, and others can feel it too. At other times, it is somewhere in the background, like a distant melody.

Here we see that Mr. Tolle finally took up a contemplative life and was getting more out of it than the average person who claims to practice meditation. We can call "intense joy" 'sukha' and "indescribable bliss and sacredness" 'piiti', which are the components of the first stage of the religious experience (1st jhana).  If we want to be generous, then we can also call his "peace" the tranquility of the 2nd religious experience (2nd jhana).
« Last Edit: November 22, 2013, 07:44:37 PM by Jhanananda »
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Re: J. Krishnamurti & Eckhart Tolle & non-dualism
« Reply #10 on: November 22, 2013, 11:41:55 PM »
Quote
Jhananda: So, here we can give him credit for an experience of the second stage of the religious experience (2nd jhana).

Jhananda: A single religious experience can be so profound as to transform our point of view on life, and it seems to have done so for Mr. Tolle.
Thank-you for your detailed reply, Jhananda.

If I understand correctly, one can have a religious experience even if one does not lead a contemplative life, and does not even practice meditation. I had one possibly when I was hypomanic. Tolle claims his religious experience produced a permanent state of tranquility, and it was not just a one time event. And from what I've read, he wasn't leading a contemplative life and practicing meditation prior to his so-called awakening.
« Last Edit: November 23, 2013, 12:23:39 AM by Michel »

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Re: J. Krishnamurti & Eckhart Tolle & non-dualism
« Reply #11 on: November 23, 2013, 01:05:54 AM »
Thank-you for your detailed reply, Jhananda.

If I understand correctly, one can have a religious experience even if one does not lead a contemplative life, and does not even practice meditation. I had one possibly when I was hypomanic.

If we look at the larger picture of the religious experience, then, yes, one can have one without leading a contemplative life; however, to cultivate them, and hone them, one must lead a contemplative life.

Tolle claims his religious experience produced a permanent state of tranquility, and it was not just a one time event. And from what I've read, he wasn't leading a contemplative life and practicing meditation prior to his so-called awakening.
Therefore, yes, Tolle could very well have had a religious experience without having led a contemplative life; nonetheless, in his description of his daily "practice" of getting himself into a calm and pleasant state of present awareness, that is a definition of the practice of mindfulness (sati).  However, it is naive to think all he did was spend his life immersed in anxiety and he got enlightened, and he does nothing at all to maintain it.

Thus, your previous hypomanic episode could very well have been a religious experience, however, you lost it and had your depressive state.  So, your job is to learn to lead a mindfully, self-aware life, get to the religious experience every day, and maintain it.  The Noble Eightfold Path is such a lifestyle.
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Re: J. Krishnamurti & Eckhart Tolle & non-dualism
« Reply #12 on: January 28, 2014, 05:46:27 PM »
A friend sent me this quote, for which I do not have sources, so I do not know how authentic it is, but I believe some of you will recognize its significance here.

Quote from: J. Krishnamurti
"It is no measure of health to be well-adjusted
to a profoundly sick society."
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Re: J. Krishnamurti & Eckhart Tolle & non-dualism
« Reply #13 on: January 28, 2014, 08:26:32 PM »
This is a very popular quote of Krishnamurti's. I googled the entire quote and checked the first 70 hits. Couldn't find the source of the quote. I found a reference to it being possibly in one of his talks titled "This Light in One's Self." Checked it, and I found nothing. I also checked two of my ebooks by Krishnamutri: 'The Awakening of Intelligence," and "The First and Last Freedom," and couldn't find anything.

However, I did find this very interesting collection of quotes, below, that are similar in subject. Some of them are really amusing, and unfortunately ring true:
Quote from: PsychForum.com
Great Quotes that say society is insane, not you

Postby WWu777 » Fri Dec 09, 2011 9:23 pm

Most people assume that the majority is right, that society is normal and sane, and that the misfit, dissident, loner or nonconformist is abnormal and possibly mentally ill. That’s what they are programmed and conditioned to believe. It is a classic “cattle control” method of getting the herd to keep itself in line. However, many great thinkers, intellectuals and writers throughout history have said the opposite. See these great quotes from them below.


“The object in life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane.” - Marcus Aurelius, Roman Emperor

"It is no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society." - Jiddu Krishnamurti

"The men the American public admire most extravagantly are the most daring liars; the men they detest most violently are those who try to tell them the truth." - H. L. Mencken

“Even if you are a minority of one, the truth is the truth.” - Gandhi

"Insanity in individuals is something rare - but in groups, parties, nations and epochs, it is the rule." - Friederich Nietzsche

"Insanity - a perfectly rational adjustment to an insane world." - R. D. Lang

"Ninety-nine percent of the people in the world are fools, and the rest of us are in great danger of contagion." - Thornton Wilder

"The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe. If you try it, you will be lonely often, and sometimes frightened. But no price is too high to pay for the privilege of owning yourself." - Friederich Nietzsche

"Men have been taught that it is a virtue to agree with others. But the creator is the man who disagrees. Men have been taught that it is a virtue to swim with the current. But the creator is the man who goes against the current. Men have been taught that it is a virtue to stand together. But the creator is the man who stands alone." - Ayn Rand

"The sick individual finds himself at home with all other similarly sick individuals. The whole culture is geared to this kind of pathology. The result is that the average individual does not experience the separateness and isolation the fully schizophrenic person feels. He feels at ease among those who suffer from the same deformation; in fact, it is the fully sane person who feels isolated in the insane society - and he may suffer so much from the incapacity to communicate that it is he who may become psychotic." - Eric Fromm, Swiss Psychologist (The Anatomy of Human Destructiveness)

The “Parable of the Poisoned Well” illustrates what Fromm described very well:

“There was once a wise king who ruled over a vast city. He was feared for his might and loved for his wisdom. Now in the heart of the city, there was a well whose waters were pure and crystalline from which the king and all the inhabitants drank. When all were asleep, an enemy entered the city and poured seven drops of a strange liquid into the well. And he said that henceforth all who drink this water shall become mad.

All the people drank of the water, but not the king. And the people began to say, "The king is mad and has lost his reason. Look how strangely he behaves. We cannot be ruled by a madman, so he must be dethroned."

The king grew very fearful, for his subjects were preparing to rise against him. So one evening, he ordered a golden goblet to be filled from the well, and he drank deeply. The next day, there was great rejoicing among the people, for their beloved king had finally regained his reason."

Likewise:

"A time will come when the whole world will go mad. And to anyone who is not mad they will say: 'You are mad, for you are not like us.'" - St. Anthony the Great (attributed to)

"Just look at us. Everything is backwards. Everything is upside down. Doctors destroy health, lawyers destroy justice, universities destroy knowledge, governments destroy freedom, the major media destroy information, and religion destroys spirituality." - Michael Ellner

Dogbert: "Reality is always controlled by the people who are most insane." - Scott Adams, Dilbert

"We are in the process of creating what deserves to be called the idiot culture. Not an idiot sub-culture, which every society has bubbling beneath the surface and which can provide harmless fun; but the culture itself. For the first time, the weird and the stupid and the coarse are becoming our cultural norm, even our cultural ideal." - Carl Bernstein, U.S. Journalist. Guardian (London, June 3, 1992)

"Whenever people agree with me I always feel I must be wrong." - Oscar Wilde

“Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect.” - Mark Twain

"Honesty is such a lonely word. Everyone is so untrue..." - Billy Joel, in his hit song Honesty

"Insanity is relative. It depends on who has who locked in what cage." - Ray Bradbury

"Beware when the great God lets loose a thinker on this planet." - Ralph Waldo Emerson

"We do not have to visit a madhouse to find disordered minds; our planet is the mental institution of the universe." - Johann von Goethe

"In a mad world, only the mad are sane." - Akiro Kurosawa

"What sane person could live in this world and not be crazy?" - Ursula K. LeGuin (b. 1929), US author, The Princess

"Our society is run by insane people for insane objectives... I think we’re being run by maniacs for maniacal ends... and I think I’m liable to be put away as insane for expressing that. That’s what’s insane about it." - John Lennon, Interview BBC-TV (June 22, 1968)

"The most dangerous man, to any government, is the man who is able to think things out for himself without regard to the prevailing superstitions and taboos. Almost inevitably he comes to the conclusion that the government he lives under is dishonest, insane and intolerable, and so, if he is romantic, he tries to change it. And even if he is not romantic personally he is apt to spread discontent among those who are." - H.L. Mencken

"In America, the criminally insane rule and the rest of us, or the vast majority of the rest of us, either do not care, do not know, or are distracted and properly brainwashed into acquiescence." - Kurt Nimmo

"America is an insane asylum run by the inmates." - Lester Roloff (1914-1982)

"When the world goes mad, one must accept madness as sanity; since sanity is, in the last analysis, nothing but the madness on which the whole world happens to agree." - George Bernard Shaw (1856-1950), British playwright

"The statistics on sanity are that one out of every four Americans is suffering from some form of mental illness. Think of your three best friends. If they are okay, then it's you." - Rita Mae Brown

“I think the reward for conformity is that everyone likes you except yourself.” - Rita Mae Brown

"The trouble with the rat race is that even if you win, you're still a rat." - Lily Tomlin (1939 - ), Actress

"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong." - Voltaire

"Sometimes I think that the greatest sign that there is intelligent life somewhere in the universe is that it hasn't tried to contact us yet." - Bill Watterson, Calvin and Hobbes

"If human beings were shown what they're really like, they'd either kill one another as vermin, or hang themselves." - Aldous Huxley, Author of A Brave New World

“Devotion to the truth is the hallmark of morality; there is no greater, nobler, more heroic form of devotion than the act of a man who assumes the responsibility of thinking.” - Ayn Rand, Atlas Shrugged
« Last Edit: January 28, 2014, 11:27:00 PM by Michel »

Jhanananda

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Re: J. Krishnamurti & Eckhart Tolle & non-dualism
« Reply #14 on: January 28, 2014, 11:35:08 PM »
Thank-you Michel, that was a very enjoyable reality check.
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