Jhanon's Blog

[Jhanon]

Does crying still happen at anagami and arahat?

I've been crying frequently, lately. I usually cry out of joy once a week on average, but it's usually clustered. Sometimes I cry because of negative reasons, but it doesn't normally get to me. It comes out and goes away.

But lately, I've been crying, and experiencing self-pity or self-loathing. And, it's getting to the point that I begin feeling urge to reach out to people for support. Also, I sleep like shit, and can't meditate worth a damn. Everytime I start meditating, I get really hot and feel sweat. I hardly eat at all. Around mid-day I force a modest meal of steamed vegetables.

[Jhanon]

I sleep poorly. My body not comfortable for more than a few minutes. When I wake up, and I don't want to get up. I gaze upon my depressing room, twisting my back to get the knots out from sleeping on the floor. Today isn't a day that my views are in-line.

I have things I've put off. Because I've been so tired. So fatigued. I can't make myself eat often. I dig deep for anything that helps. I need exercise. But when I go to exercise, my entire body feels disgusting. Sweaty, and hairy, just unsatisfactory.

Despite the state of my body and mind, I push myself off the floor, tucking my chin and waiting for the dizziness of stress and malnourished to subside. I stumble through what things need to be done before I leave. I check some things 3 or 4 times before I go. I have to unplug all the outlets in my room and put away anything valuable before I leave.

I'm fatigued and disoriented. I dig deep for anything that will help. I don't really care what it is. At one point, I think of my girls. Waiting for something to happen so we can live together. I miss holding them. Tears well up, and I push myself out the door. It's bright, hot, and loud. I put headphones in, and take off my shirt. I'm tired before I get to the road. I take a rest, and think of my girls again. Tears start coming.

I gather all my strength and push on. It's less than half a mile to the office. I stop at the main road to catch my breath. Chest is tight. I feel people looking at me. I look in their direction and see housewives running "errands" in their big SUV's. Their thoughts are half suspicious, half sexual. I wish they knew how easily their thoughts can be read. Maybe then they would be more considerate.

I glide down a slight hill, staying under the shade of the sidewalk trees. Every push is exhausting, and I lean on my knees with my hands as I roll along. The tightness, shortness of breath, fatigue--it becomes too much. But I have to get this done. It's the only thing even close to bringing my family together. I take a pill that's supposed to calm me down and make me okay with things. In other words, it's supposed to turn me into an ordinary person.

I put it under my dry tongue, trying to avoid reading the thoughts of passerby's. When I look at their faces, it's obvious. So I rarely look at faces, ever. Except my baby girl. Her face is still relatively innocent and simple.

It's uphill now. A song comes on that makes me feel like "I know, right!? FUCK. Let's do this" and I push on, feeling a little bit better. My shoulders ache after just a few blocks. I rest again.

Eventually I show up to the office. There are many people. I find a shady tree nearby. Put my shirt on, and prepare my defenses as much as possible. It's a place people go when they are suffering, afterall. The pill is kicking in, but it's not much of a change. I'm sweating yet cold.

I check to make sure I didn't forget anything, and I walk in. I'm confused by how the room is setup. I can't look at all the many faces. They have pain, frustration, confusion, despair. Even a child is pitching a tantrum. Why would they cram all that energy into one place?

A kind security officer helps me quickly get done what I need to get done, and then I leave--surprised how quickly it was over. On the way home, I observe that the pill I took, although it relaxes, it has an effect similar to alcohol. Which means it pushes my conditioned self to the forefront, and leads to crying. I can't take this stuff anymore. It doesn't work. I'll just have to tough it out.

I made it home, and even though I walked very slowly to get there, I got in the house and felt exhausted. Like I'd been bombarded by negative mind states in a war zone. I almost collapsed. I was huffing and puffing, trying to keep it together so my roommates wouldn't see it.

I just had to get to my room. Once I did, what has been happening, happened again. As soon as the door was shut, and I had prepared myself to keep it quiet; I sobbed, and sobbed. Maybe "sobbed" isn't the right word. I released everything I had experienced, and it came as tears flowing down my cheeks. Eventually I reached out to my Mother. She tried to fix it. I explained to her that everything was okay, but I needed to cry. I needed a warm heart to let me express the pain.

Soon after, I took my usual medication, at its regular interval. Now I feel better.

[Alexander]

Their thoughts are half suspicious, half sexual. I wish they knew how easily their thoughts can be read. Maybe then they would be more considerate.

I know, the people in cars I always know the thoughts of. They have so much ill will. After a while it gets so tiresome.

I put it under my dry tongue, trying to avoid reading the thoughts of passerby's. When I look at their faces, it's obvious. So I rarely look at faces, ever.

When we are both free you should come spend time with me, I think.

[Michel]

Does crying still happen at anagami and arahat?

I've been crying frequently, lately. I usually cry out of joy once a week on average, but it's usually clustered. Sometimes I cry because of negative reasons, but it doesn't normally get to me. It comes out and goes away.

But lately, I've been crying, and experiencing self-pity or self-loathing. And, it's getting to the point that I begin feeling urge to reach out to people for support. Also, I sleep like shit, and can't meditate worth a damn. Everytime I start meditating, I get really hot and feel sweat. I hardly eat at all. Around mid-day I force a modest meal of steamed vegetables.

Do you think you may be undergoing a dark night of the soul? If so I hope it goes well for you, Jhanon. You seem to have had an easy ride of it so far. Have you ever had a dark night?

[Jhanon]

Does crying still happen at anagami and arahat?

I've been crying frequently, lately. I usually cry out of joy once a week on average, but it's usually clustered. Sometimes I cry because of negative reasons, but it doesn't normally get to me. It comes out and goes away.

But lately, I've been crying, and experiencing self-pity or self-loathing. And, it's getting to the point that I begin feeling urge to reach out to people for support. Also, I sleep like shit, and can't meditate worth a damn. Everytime I start meditating, I get really hot and feel sweat. I hardly eat at all. Around mid-day I force a modest meal of steamed vegetables.

Do you think you may be undergoing a dark night of the soul? If so I hope it goes well for you, Jhanon. You seem to have had an easy ride of it so far. Have you ever had a dark night?

Have I never talked about my early life? I suppose I haven't, have I....

The stuff I just posted above, is the best of the worst in my life. In other words, it's not nearly as difficult as the other hard times. So, yeah--I've had a dark night. To be honest, from either 8 years old, or 15 (when my girlfriend was killed by a drunk driver) to the age of 25, appeared to be one long dark night of the sense. I thought of killing myself very often.

Jhananda thinks I'm a Non-Returner. I'm more inclined toward saying once-returner. But if I'm going through a dark night of the soul, then we know where I'm at. It certainly feels different. In the first-mentioned dark night, senses would drive me insane. In this one, it's different. I don't know how to explain it's differences yet.

It's like being trapped between a rock and a hard place, except there's legitimate options. You don't have only the choice between enduring it or offing yourself, like it was in the first dark night. You have the choice between enduring it for really good reasons, or retiring to a cave to meditate.

Their thoughts are half suspicious, half sexual. I wish they knew how easily their thoughts can be read. Maybe then they would be more considerate.

I know, the people in cars I always know the thoughts of. They have so much ill will. After a while it gets so tiresome.

I put it under my dry tongue, trying to avoid reading the thoughts of passerby's. When I look at their faces, it's obvious. So I rarely look at faces, ever.

When we are both free you should come spend time with me, I think.

Let's hope that's doable. I've not gained enough direct knowledge to know. But, I've been spending quite a bit of time in the 4th jhana, attempting to direct my mind toward that knowledge.

[Valdy]

Does crying still happen at anagami and arahat?

I've been crying frequently, lately. I usually cry out of joy once a week on average, but it's usually clustered. Sometimes I cry because of negative reasons, but it doesn't normally get to me. It comes out and goes away.

But lately, I've been crying, and experiencing self-pity or self-loathing. And, it's getting to the point that I begin feeling urge to reach out to people for support. Also, I sleep like shit, and can't meditate worth a damn. Everytime I start meditating, I get really hot and feel sweat. I hardly eat at all. Around mid-day I force a modest meal of steamed vegetables.

Repressed feelings will make us cry, the hurts and pains of the past. It takes a lot of energy to keep them repressed, that will make us tired. We think that if we feel our feelings they will destroy us but we felt them once when we originally went through the event that caused us pain, and we will be able to feel them again.
When we cry and see the problem clearly the emotions should come up and the energy behind them should disappear.
This too shall pass : -)

 antidepressants in the Benzodiazepine family have the same molecular structure
as alcohol is why they may seem the same, you may still need to take them
until it feels safe to stop.
Try not to beat up on yourself you need at least one friend in the world : -)
Bless

[rougeleader115]

Does crying still happen at anagami and arahat?

I've been crying frequently, lately. I usually cry out of joy once a week on average, but it's usually clustered. Sometimes I cry because of negative reasons, but it doesn't normally get to me. It comes out and goes away.
 
But lately, I've been crying, and experiencing self-pity or self-loathing. And, it's getting to the point that I begin feeling urge to reach out to people for support. Also, I sleep like shit, and can't meditate worth a damn. Everytime I start meditating, I get really hot and feel sweat. I hardly eat at all. Around mid-day I force a modest meal of steamed vegetables.

This is really where I have found myself for the past few months. It is boiling over and I am finding myself actually feeling overwhelmed. Like entirely... I am going to my grandfather's funeral tomorrow. He just got kidneys after being on dialysis for years and had a heart attack a few weeks later. I almost went to see him a week before he died in the hospital, but I was a fool and thought "I'll see him once he is feeling better" instead of going with the urgency I felt.

Also I do not know if it is just my emotions, but I have a near zero appetite for over a month now. I sometimes eat only one small meal a day and no snacks. I would probably not even eat some days, but I force myself for the sake of my health. Some rare days I actually have a closer to normal appetite.
 

It's like being trapped between a rock and a hard place, except there's legitimate options. You don't have only the choice between enduring it or offing yourself, like it was in the first dark night. You have the choice between enduring it for really good reasons, or retiring to a cave to meditate

Again you are speaking the same things I feel. This is how I have tried to explain to my partner the dark feelings I have. Its different now, especially with the charisms, but still so unbearable at times.

From about 16 on till about 20 years old, it was definitely an enduring or kill myself kind of relationship with life. I leaned heavily towards killing myself, but felt I had a chance after hearing the 4 noble truths. Fast forward to 19 and I find out about meditation. Charisms followed a few months after I began, almost all third eye activity. Found this forum about a year ago now.Another fast forward to 22 and the charisms are through my body and hearing, still no visual activity.

 I am fighting so hard to continue my worldly life for the sake of my loved ones. I don't even necessarily feel cut out to be an all out mendicant, but some (a lot lately) days like today, I found the stresses driving me near insane. I am finding myself quick to anger and depression. There are constant changes and conflicts happening with the people I dwell with, and now there is someone else living here with a baby.

I can't manage all of the energies I feel from everyone. I can barely look at faces myself and I feel shame, because these people aren't out to do me harm. But I feel an inner ugliness, in them, and myself. And it makes me want to run away from everything and just meditate till this pain stops.

But I don't know how to just turn my back on them all. They are not bad people, I just feel too sensitive to handle it all.

Anyway thank you Jhanon, Michel, Alexander, Valdy, Gandarloda, Stugandolf,  and Jhanananda. It is really a lifesaver some of the dialogues you all have. Alsoif you happen to read this, welcome Cal. I really want to post on some of the other topics I see firing up here on the forum, but won't be able to access a computer till this weekend.

(From mobile device)

[Michel]

Anyway thank you Jhanon, Michel, Alexander, Valdy, Gandarloda, Stugandolf,  and Jhanananda. It is really a lifesaver some of the dialogues you all have. Alsoif you happen to read this, welcome Cal.

And I thank you for all the great posts you have contributed here, I've learnt much from them my friend. You have a good heart, rougeleader.

[Jhanon]

Does crying still happen at anagami and arahat?

I've been crying frequently, lately. I usually cry out of joy once a week on average, but it's usually clustered. Sometimes I cry because of negative reasons, but it doesn't normally get to me. It comes out and goes away.

But lately, I've been crying, and experiencing self-pity or self-loathing. And, it's getting to the point that I begin feeling urge to reach out to people for support. Also, I sleep like shit, and can't meditate worth a damn. Everytime I start meditating, I get really hot and feel sweat. I hardly eat at all. Around mid-day I force a modest meal of steamed vegetables.

Repressed feelings will make us cry, the hurts and pains of the past. It takes a lot of energy to keep them repressed, that will make us tired. We think that if we feel our feelings they will destroy us but we felt them once when we originally went through the event that caused us pain, and we will be able to feel them again.
When we cry and see the problem clearly the emotions should come up and the energy behind them should disappear.
This too shall pass : -)

 antidepressants in the Benzodiazepine family have the same molecular structure
as alcohol is why they may seem the same, you may still need to take them
until it feels safe to stop.
Try not to beat up on yourself you need at least one friend in the world : -)
Bless

Thank you for your words, Valdy.

The first "pill" I'm referring to actually is a straight-up benzo. I've had a few good experiences with their use, just like small amounts of alcohol. But lately they (benzos) bring out a lot of old "me." A lot like when someone gets drunk, self-pities and tells you all their woes. So, despite having had a few good experiences with them, I do not intend to use them anymore. I stopped drinking alcohol for these reasons, and so I see only one reason for its future use, which would be not for me, but for my family's sake. The medicine I took at the end which made me feel better is what I've been using for the last three years. It's a natural wonder, and I'm very grateful for it.

I was pleased when you said "you may still need to take them until it feels safe to stop." I actually applied this to the natural wonder I just referred to, as it's the one which I still see more benefit than downside.

Does crying still happen at anagami and arahat?

I've been crying frequently, lately. I usually cry out of joy once a week on average, but it's usually clustered. Sometimes I cry because of negative reasons, but it doesn't normally get to me. It comes out and goes away.
 
But lately, I've been crying, and experiencing self-pity or self-loathing. And, it's getting to the point that I begin feeling urge to reach out to people for support. Also, I sleep like shit, and can't meditate worth a damn. Everytime I start meditating, I get really hot and feel sweat. I hardly eat at all. Around mid-day I force a modest meal of steamed vegetables.

This is really where I have found myself for the past few months. It is boiling over and I am finding myself actually feeling overwhelmed. Like entirely... I am going to my grandfather's funeral tomorrow. He just got kidneys after being on dialysis for years and had a heart attack a few weeks later. I almost went to see him a week before he died in the hospital, but I was a fool and thought "I'll see him once he is feeling better" instead of going with the urgency I felt.

Also I do not know if it is just my emotions, but I have a near zero appetite for over a month now. I sometimes eat only one small meal a day and no snacks. I would probably not even eat some days, but I force myself for the sake of my health. Some rare days I actually have a closer to normal appetite.
 

It's like being trapped between a rock and a hard place, except there's legitimate options. You don't have only the choice between enduring it or offing yourself, like it was in the first dark night. You have the choice between enduring it for really good reasons, or retiring to a cave to meditate

Again you are speaking the same things I feel. This is how I have tried to explain to my partner the dark feelings I have. Its different now, especially with the charisms, but still so unbearable at times.

From about 16 on till about 20 years old, it was definitely an enduring or kill myself kind of relationship with life. I leaned heavily towards killing myself, but felt I had a chance after hearing the 4 noble truths. Fast forward to 19 and I find out about meditation. Charisms followed a few months after I began, almost all third eye activity. Found this forum about a year ago now.Another fast forward to 22 and the charisms are through my body and hearing, still no visual activity.

 I am fighting so hard to continue my worldly life for the sake of my loved ones. I don't even necessarily feel cut out to be an all out mendicant, but some (a lot lately) days like today, I found the stresses driving me near insane. I am finding myself quick to anger and depression. There are constant changes and conflicts happening with the people I dwell with, and now there is someone else living here with a baby.

I can't manage all of the energies I feel from everyone. I can barely look at faces myself and I feel shame, because these people aren't out to do me harm. But I feel an inner ugliness, in them, and myself. And it makes me want to run away from everything and just meditate till this pain stops.

But I don't know how to just turn my back on them all. They are not bad people, I just feel too sensitive to handle it all.

Anyway thank you Jhanon, Michel, Alexander, Valdy, Gandarloda, Stugandolf,  and Jhanananda. It is really a lifesaver some of the dialogues you all have. Alsoif you happen to read this, welcome Cal. I really want to post on some of the other topics I see firing up here on the forum, but won't be able to access a computer till this weekend.

(From mobile device)

Rougeleader, I think Valdy gave good advice to both of us, although it was directed at me regarding a medication. The way I interpret what Valdy said, is that we just do our best to make it all work while moving toward what we feel is best. To me, this means keeping your conscience clear. Or, in other words, being responsible.

It's strange how my doing this has worked out. It's like I'm sweeping through all these people I know or knew, family, friends, acquaintances, and just my presence is changing the whole thing up. People who had been stuck in the same rut for 20 years or their whole life, after some time with me, they begin to change into a more skillful and wholesome individual.

It can also be looked at as clearing out the causal cobwebs from the past. Like a lifelong, deeply indebted and poor man when he wins the lottery and makes the rounds to all the people he's wronged, or used, and paying them all back before he can move forward with his new life.

A good final example is what is in the Buddha's Discourses. The Buddha would make it known that he was going to be somewhere (this forum), and would help seekers (us) to find their answers. Once they knew enough, he would send them back out to share their knowledge. We have to presume there is at least a few others out there who are ready, but don't know it, or what they're ready for, or what's happening to them. Like, Cal. Had I dropped everything and moved to Arizona with Jhananda, I probably wouldn't need to take this philosophy course, and then I wouldn't be posting philosophical arguments that show how everything humans care about flows into the necessity for direct insight of charisms and samadhi.

Depending on the severity of the situation, life has a corresponding rate of adaptation. What I mean, is that we would probably all be happiest dropping everything, and being mile-away neighbors in the wilderness or a lowly populated area. But, the change has to happen. And if you want to do that in a way that is skillful, then it happens slowly. Life might hit the Earth with a massive asteroid, but there's a lot of slow change happening after that. In the same way we've been hit with something massive, but now there's a lot of slow change happening.

[Jhanon]

Feeling better, lately. I've found that food and enjoyment of food is absolutely essential, unless one is living a reclusive mendicant life--in which case it seems the less food one eats, the more spiritual progress occurs. This makes sense, and ties in with cabin fever and a whole bunch of other "unrelated" phenomena. Basically, the less grounded we are, the more we'll have to deal with some form of crisis.

I thought it was interesting that when a human is left alone for a month without any other human contact, they can develop symptoms of "cabin fever." And according to my observations, cabin fever is merely induced jhana. It doesn't even really seem induced, though. It seems it just removes the distractions which keep us grounded.

At some point I intend to make a post which shows the underlying relationship and mechanics of schizophrenia, cabin fever, malnutrition, psychedelic drugs or high doses of anything which eventually induce psychedelic effects, dreaming, NDE, and jhana. I can't be the only one who sees a huge overarching database of existing scientific study which show evidence of samadhi and its role in humans. In other words; I want to take the big picture out of my head and put it on paper. If it's good enough, I'll publish it on Kindle and other platforms. Hopefully it will be rather short.

Once that's done, and the evidence for jhana has raised curiosities of readers, I would like to publish a small yet comprehensive booklet on the practice of jhana and the charisms.

Once that's finished, I would like to publish another small book which references the former two and explains the interwoven relationship of all major religions to renown mystics of the past, unifying them as Jhananda has shown them to be.

Once THAT'S finished, I would crank out a rather large book which treats everything previously discussed, and hopefully, if enough credibility is attained by then, I would include details of experiences.

But, I think we first need to get a jhana booklet out their for westerners. Straight-forward with as little room for controversy as possible. Just "Do this, and this will happen."

[Michel]

Once that's done, and the evidence for jhana has raised curiosities of readers, I would like to publish a small yet comprehensive booklet on the practice of jhana and the charisms.

But, I think we first need to get a jhana booklet out their for westerners. Straight-forward with as little room for controversy as possible. Just "Do this, and this will happen."

Do it! Great idea. Consider it a heavy duty emergency. I'll back you financially if you want.

[Jhanon]

Wow, I didn't expect such an enthusiastic response. At present, it is an issue of prioritizing. As you've no doubt noticed, Michel, I absorb quickly into anything I'm doing which is interesting. The more interesting it is, the more I absorb. Which is why the charisms are such an important part of meditative absorption for me.

My point, though, is that I have other duties which I'm responsible to make time for and complete on a weekly deadline. They are what keeps enough money in my pockets to survive under a roof. So, If I started a jhana booklet, I have absolutely no doubt that it would consume every waking minute of everyday until it was finished. This would cause considerable problems to me financially.

I have an intense drive to write it, but I've been keeping it at bay by posting small amounts of writing around this forum which would have otherwise become part of the book. Now that I think of it, though, I can't foresee any time in the future when I would be able to just let myself loose on writing a book. Not unless you want to provide me the money I need to survive each month, thus freeing me up from other duties. But, just that idea makes me feel woozy--LOL

Instead, perhaps I should start a thread which is to become the book, thus allowing input from the only editors I would ever need (the GWV.) I think this is a much better idea, and have seen the same practice done with recent self-published books.

I will start a thread now.

[Michel]

Instead, perhaps I should start a thread which is to become the book, thus allowing input from the only editors I would ever need (the GWV.) I think this is a much better idea, and have seen the same practice done with recent self-published books.

I will start a thread now.

That's brilliant! I think this is the best way to go about it. You'll get everyone's input on it. Then you might consider publishing on something like Kindle ebook format or something. If that goes well, then maybe a book. Then we'll talk money.

[Jhanon]

Yes, Michel.

Unrelated:

Holy shit. I think an insight just came to fruition or something. I don't know how to explain it other than to share the details. I was thinking about grounding, elevating, and balanced drugs, food, and activities. Then I began observing my day, which wasn't full of peace and ease like usual. But I couldn't understand why.

So I began experimenting with the above observations regarding grounding, elevating, and balanced qualities--or elements. It was very interesting, because I figured out how to resolve the issue of my lack of peace and ease, before I proved it. Upon proving it, suddenly a shit load of stuff began to make sense.

I began to see why and what the Buddha meant when he said to contemplate the elements (he said that if I remember correctly.) It's the core mechanics. The simplification of a complex system of cause, effect, balance and contrast.

I understand now why it's good for Jhananda to have a couple of glasses of wine. Or Michel to eat eggs for breakfast. Why it can feel so good to be "bad" and eat pizza for a day.

But instead of relying on past trial and error, we can know the element or quality of the nature of our imbalance, and choose the most optimally balanced solution.

I'm not making enough sense. Because it's the first time I've seen this in wide screen format, if you will. But I get it. The only thing I don't thoroughly understand is how meditative absorption fits in. But it's there. The knowledge is creeping in. It's such an interested experience to observe knowledge viscerally taking root.

I know I sound crazy. It's because I can't put it into words well, yet. But I needed to record this so I would revisit it, and share it with those who wish to know.

Suffice it to say; it's another one of the Buddha's useful frames of reference. Although I don't know if it's a "frame of reference."

[Michel]

You're bursting with energy. You are in a hypomanic state and full of creativity. You'll find a way to put all the pieces together. I think you're just  doing fine, you're not crazy, just a little eccentric.

Keep the 7 factors of enlightenment in mind throughout the day. Especially mindfulness, tranquility and equanimity. Don't let the factor of energy get out of hand.

Jhananda wrote this on manic states:

"No, the mania is a good thing.  The problem for the manic, is lack of control/discipline.  If the bipolar could maintain tranquility and equanimity through the manic phase, then the manic phase could be sustained indefinitely,  At that point we could call the individual at least an arahat.  So, be mindfully self-aware. 

When you recognize the manic phase arising, then be even more mindfully self-aware. Do not throw that precious energy (virtue, virya, shakti, shakena, kundalini) around, but savor it, like a very expensive wine. 

Expensive wines are not gulped, they are sipped and savored.  The gourmand tastes the bouquet of the expensive wine/coffee. He/ she rolls it in his/her mouth, then breaths through it, feels the sensations on the tunque, inside the cheeks, and nasal passages; before swallowing it.  Then the wine passing down the throat is savored as well.  It is all mindfully observed. Be that self aware at all times, then you are diligently following the Noble Eightfold Path."
 
Go to reply #22 of this thread for a full discussion that I had with Jhananda on mania: http://fruitofthecontemplativelife.org/forum/index.php?topic=579.15