The Senses - non duality - 3rd Jhana

[william]

There might be a more appropriate category for this, but will post here for now as the questions have to do with insight gained from seeing that the limits of the senses are the limits of what is experienced as the world.

I have meditated for years and enter 2nd Jhana now every time I meditate, less frequently 3rd, with no real facility with 4th as of yet.

A few months ago I began investigating 'non-dual' teachings for the first time, and found them opening me up to new ways of seeing that I had not before considered. The most significant perhaps being that this body is not a separate self, or that 'the world' does not exist independently of the experience of it.

Through this insight I have begun to investigate the fabricated nature of self, and related issues of guilt and conscience.

While the world may in fact exist, or run independent of being here, that is also just a thought in the field of experience, and can therefore only form part of a belief system, which has been seen to be delusional, a fantasy, as it only has bearing on the actuality of my immediate experience as delusion. In other words, it is what it is, but it goes beyond the limits of what can be known as fact.

This seems significant, and would seem to be an issue of right view, is there a way to take this further, or does it not really matter or make any significant difference?

I discovered that when I put my attention on a sense field, usually vision as that seems the easiest to see 'this', with a subtle shift of attention, I see that there is nothing outside of my field of vision, and that everything in my field of vision in this moment is 'what' I am (if that is anything at all).

Sabba Sutta: The All
"Monks, I will teach you the All. Listen & pay close attention. I will speak."

"As you say, lord," the monks responded.

The Blessed One said, "What is the All? Simply the eye & forms, ear & sounds, nose & aromas, tongue & flavors, body & tactile sensations, intellect & ideas. This, monks, is called the All. Anyone who would say, 'Repudiating this All, I will describe another,' if questioned on what exactly might be the grounds for his statement, would be unable to explain, and furthermore, would be put to grief. Why? Because it lies beyond range."

The sense of an 'I' sees this most clearly when in 3rd Jhana. Previously 'I' would have said that there was a heightened awareness, clarity, of the world, which this body is 'in', and which operates independently of its being in it. But with this shift of awareness, the 'I' sees that it is in fact one and the same as the objects in the field of vision, and that there is no separation between vision and the objects appearing in it. In other words, awareness and the limits of my sense fields (which is perception?) feel like a single connected piece, with no distinction between inner and outer. This becomes further puzzling when noticing that the body is here too 'in' the field of vision.

There is sometimes a delirious effect when reflecting on 'why' all this is happening, why is it happening rather than not happening? Why is this appearing rather than not appearing? Could it not not appear?

Just yesterday on the way to work, something 'dropped away', a sense of identity, and there was a feeling of emptiness, clarity, calm, the body aligned itself, the breathing became easy and transparent. It felt like 3rd Jhana, but what fell away, did so in an instant, and there was a sense of feeling completely present. It was the first time this had happened like this. It was different than when 3rd Jhana arises from meditation, or spontaneously, it just happened, in an instant, unexpectedly.

Later, when walking home, there was a subtle effort to maintain a sense of bearings, of where 'I' was,  attention would shift from where 'I' was going, to the texture of the experience of where 'I' was. Subtle, but interesting.

These phenomena are only just beginning to be seen and so haven't been explored with any depth. There is awarness that non-dual practices, dzogchen, advaita vedanta, mahamudra, deal with these issues, but I have as yet not read the literature associated with these experiences this body is having, and wonder if you might be able to shed some light on this here.

William

[Jhanananda]

There might be a more appropriate category for this, but will post here for now as the questions have to do with insight gained from seeing that the limits of the senses are the limits of what is experienced as the world.

Welcome, William, and thank-you for posting your comments on your contemplative life here.  This report might be best in case histories, or non-dualism, but we will see where it goes from here.

I have meditated for years and enter 2nd Jhana now every time I meditate, less frequently 3rd, with no real facility with 4th as of yet.

At this point we would want to investigate by whose definition of jhana are you going by?  So, if you do not mind I will ask a few simple questions to see what you mean by 2nd & 3rd Jhana.  Does the 2nd Jhana mean to you that your mind stills during meditation?  Does the 3rd Jhana mean to you a level of greater depth & heightened awareness, that is characterized by a deeper level of still mind, which is called 'equanimity' in which your mind is not involved in interpreting the experience of meditation, or any sensory phenomena that occurs when you meditate?

A few months ago I began investigating 'non-dual' teachings for the first time, and found them opening me up to new ways of seeing that I had not before considered. The most significant perhaps being that this body is not a separate self, or that 'the world' does not exist independently of the experience of it.

I too embraced non-dualism about 40 years ago; however, I found that most non-dualists today do not meditate, so their non-dualism is mostly just philosophy and an overactive imagination.  Nonetheless, the reason why I embraced non-dual philosophy is I was entering the stages of the religious experience (jhana), which are characterized by a non-dual experience.  Is that true for you?  Are your meditation experiences non-dual in nature, meaning are you losing the sense of self when you meditate?

Through this insight I have begun to investigate the fabricated nature of self, and related issues of guilt and conscience.

While the world may in fact exist, or run independent of being here, that is also just a thought in the field of experience, and can therefore only form part of a belief system, which has been seen to be delusional, a fantasy, as it only has bearing on the actuality of my immediate experience as delusion. In other words, it is what it is, but it goes beyond the limits of what can be known as fact.

This seems significant, and would seem to be an issue of right view, is there a way to take this further, or does it not really matter or make any significant difference?

We take this "right view" further by meditating to depth, which is called 'jhana' in the suttas, where the mind stops, so the interpretation of sensory experience stops, and we lose the sense of self; not by just taking up another philosophy invented by someone who never meditates.

I discovered that when I put my attention on a sense field, usually vision as that seems the easiest to see 'this', with a subtle shift of attention, I see that there is nothing outside of my field of vision, and that everything in my field of vision in this moment is 'what' I am (if that is anything at all).

Sabba Sutta: The All
"Monks, I will teach you the All. Listen & pay close attention. I will speak."

"As you say, lord," the monks responded.

The Blessed One said, "What is the All? Simply the eye & forms, ear & sounds, nose & aromas, tongue & flavors, body & tactile sensations, intellect & ideas. This, monks, is called the All. Anyone who would say, 'Repudiating this All, I will describe another,' if questioned on what exactly might be the grounds for his statement, would be unable to explain, and furthermore, would be put to grief. Why? Because it lies beyond range."

The sense of an 'I' sees this most clearly when in 3rd Jhana. Previously 'I' would have said that there was a heightened awareness, clarity, of the world, which this body is 'in', and which operates independently of its being in it. But with this shift of awareness, the 'I' sees that it is in fact one and the same as the objects in the field of vision, and that there is no separation between vision and the objects appearing in it. In other words, awareness and the limits of my sense fields (which is perception?) feel like a single connected piece, with no distinction between inner and outer. This becomes further puzzling when noticing that the body is here too 'in' the field of vision.

I would expect that when you are in the 3rd jhana you are not busy interpreting the experience, you are just having the experience of deep meditation, and often times one loses the sense of self at this depth of meditation

There is sometimes a delirious effect when reflecting on 'why' all this is happening, why is it happening rather than not happening? Why is this appearing rather than not appearing? Could it not not appear?

Just yesterday on the way to work, something 'dropped away', a sense of identity, and there was a feeling of emptiness, clarity, calm, the body aligned itself, the breathing became easy and transparent. It felt like 3rd Jhana, but what fell away, did so in an instant, and there was a sense of feeling completely present. It was the first time this had happened like this. It was different than when 3rd Jhana arises from meditation, or spontaneously, it just happened, in an instant, unexpectedly.

This does sound like the experience of the 3rd jhana, and for those who consistently experience the 3rd jhana during daily meditation practice will often begin to experience this lose of self, accompanied by heightened awareness and insight at random moments during the day.

Later, when walking home, there was a subtle effort to maintain a sense of bearings, of where 'I' was,  attention would shift from where 'I' was going, to the texture of the experience of where 'I' was. Subtle, but interesting.

These phenomena are only just beginning to be seen and so haven't been explored with any depth. There is awarness that non-dual practices, dzogchen, advaita vedanta, mahamudra, deal with these issues, but I have as yet not read the literature associated with these experiences this body is having, and wonder if you might be able to shed some light on this here.

William

Your last description indeed sounded like the typical 3rd jhana experience.  Do you meditate everyday?  How long are you typical meditation sessions?

[william]

There might be a more appropriate category for this, but will post here for now as the questions have to do with insight gained from seeing that the limits of the senses are the limits of what is experienced as the world.

Welcome, William, and thank-you for posting your comments on your contemplative life here.  This report might be best in case histories, or non-dualism, but we will see where it goes from here.

Thank you, Jeffrey. And thank you for your reply.

I have meditated for years and enter 2nd Jhana now every time I meditate, less frequently 3rd, with no real facility with 4th as of yet.

At this point we would want to investigate by whose definition of jhana are you going by?  So, if you do not mind I will ask a few simple questions to see what you mean by 2nd & 3rd Jhana.  Does the 2nd Jhana mean to you that your mind stills during meditation?

Almost from the moment that I lie down to meditate (bad back), I feel the presence of the 1st Jhana. A calm, gentle, cool breath comes as though from no where; if I have a cold or stuffy nose, the sinus passages will clear. I immediately bring attention to the non sensory tingling sensation that is always most present in the feet and palms. The intensity will increase and begin to move through out the body. I often do a kind of yoga nidra, moving the attention around the body, starting with the tips of the toes and fingers. Unpredictably the energy seems to reach a kind of bifurcation point, and then woosh! Thought stops as though the rug had just been pulled out from under you, there is a glorious blissful release of all stress and anxiety off of the chest as though an enormous weight had been lifted off revealing infinite open space within (but just in darkness, nothing visual, just a feeling sensation). There is nothing like it, totally ecstatic bliss and joy, there is no question about it! However, however, the degree of intensity has decreased over the years, it changes from day to day, I just sort of slip into it now. I can be thinking about something else entirely, forget that I'm supposed to be meditating, and then there's the shift and my attention is suddenly pulled back to it, not sure why this has changed like this, age?

Does the 3rd Jhana mean to you a level of greater depth & heightened awareness, that is characterized by a deeper level of still mind, which is called 'equanimity' in which your mind is not involved in interpreting the experience of meditation, or any sensory phenomena that occurs when you meditate?

Yes, 3rd Jhana then sometimes arises, and I have previously called it a state of non perception, but I see it really is just perception itself, where the most prominent aspect is emptiness and transparency. I never think equanimity, but that is indeed what it is. A pleasant abiding in the hear and now, free from suffering (and what has been seen more recently as the loss of self, identity, which when seen as such, would mean freedom from being affected by thoughts and beliefs that were once tied to identification with a separate self).

A few months ago I began investigating 'non-dual' teachings for the first time, and found them opening me up to new ways of seeing that I had not before considered. The most significant perhaps being that this body is not a separate self, or that 'the world' does not exist independently of the experience of it.

I too embraced non-dualism about 40 years ago; however, I found that most non-dualists today do not meditate, so their non-dualism is mostly just philosophy and an overactive imagination.  Nonetheless, the reason why I embraced non-dual philosophy is I was entering the stages of the religious experience (jhana), which are characterized by a non-dual experience.  Is that true for you?  Are your meditation experiences non-dual in nature, meaning are you losing the sense of self when you meditate?

As above, yes, that really seems to be what is happening, the sense of self is being transcended, or released. Which is interesting how when the sphere of thoughts-beliefs-mental constructs dissolve into pure consciousness, its not really like going from 2 to 1, but more like 1 to 0. Non-dual anyways.

Through this insight I have begun to investigate the fabricated nature of self, and related issues of guilt and conscience.

While the world may in fact exist, or run independent of being here, that is also just a thought in the field of experience, and can therefore only form part of a belief system, which has been seen to be delusional, a fantasy, as it only has bearing on the actuality of my immediate experience as delusion. In other words, it is what it is, but it goes beyond the limits of what can be known as fact.

This seems significant, and would seem to be an issue of right view, is there a way to take this further, or does it not really matter or make any significant difference?

We take this "right view" further by meditating to depth, which is called 'jhana' in the suttas, where the mind stops, so the interpretation of sensory experience stops, and we lose the sense of self; not by just taking up another philosophy invented by someone who never meditates.

I get lost too quickly with the more subtle nuance of the philosophy itself. I inquired on another forum regarding some of the things I mentioned above about seeing the field of vision as a single connected piece, one reply was as follows:

"... as for anatta, an insight has to arise that sees through the inherent view of a subjective essence - that sees through the very delusion of an agent, a seer, hearer, thinker, etc behind hearing-sound, seeing-sight (and seeing is merely that experience of sight). One dissolves the tendency of conceiving a changeless, inherent self/Self. This is not merely non-dual experience by subsuming everything as self. Furthermore there is a difference between an experience of no-mind, in which one experiences simply the sounds/space/sensation as all there is, and realizing anatta to be what is always already the case. In summary, an experience of the dissolution of sense of separation into 'only the experience' (as a peak experience) is not the same as realizing that the subjective self/agent behind experience has always been a delusion, and always in hearing just sound no hearer, etc etc. There is a distinction between 'experience' and 'realization'."

I don't really no what they mean, but maybe that is what I experience, not sure.

I discovered that when I put my attention on a sense field, usually vision as that seems the easiest to see 'this', with a subtle shift of attention, I see that there is nothing outside of my field of vision, and that everything in my field of vision in this moment is 'what' I am (if that is anything at all).

Sabba Sutta: The All
"Monks, I will teach you the All. Listen & pay close attention. I will speak."

"As you say, lord," the monks responded.

The Blessed One said, "What is the All? Simply the eye & forms, ear & sounds, nose & aromas, tongue & flavors, body & tactile sensations, intellect & ideas. This, monks, is called the All. Anyone who would say, 'Repudiating this All, I will describe another,' if questioned on what exactly might be the grounds for his statement, would be unable to explain, and furthermore, would be put to grief. Why? Because it lies beyond range."

The sense of an 'I' sees this most clearly when in 3rd Jhana. Previously 'I' would have said that there was a heightened awareness, clarity, of the world, which this body is 'in', and which operates independently of its being in it. But with this shift of awareness, the 'I' sees that it is in fact one and the same as the objects in the field of vision, and that there is no separation between vision and the objects appearing in it. In other words, awareness and the limits of my sense fields (which is perception?) feel like a single connected piece, with no distinction between inner and outer. This becomes further puzzling when noticing that the body is here too 'in' the field of vision.

I would expect that when you are in the 3rd jhana you are not busy interpreting the experience, you are just having the experience of deep meditation, and often times one loses the sense of self at this depth of meditation.

Yes, this is just seen in retrospect mostly.

There is sometimes a delirious effect when reflecting on 'why' all this is happening, why is it happening rather than not happening? Why is this appearing rather than not appearing? Could it not not appear?

Just yesterday on the way to work, something 'dropped away', a sense of identity, and there was a feeling of emptiness, clarity, calm, the body aligned itself, the breathing became easy and transparent. It felt like 3rd Jhana, but what fell away, did so in an instant, and there was a sense of feeling completely present. It was the first time this had happened like this. It was different than when 3rd Jhana arises from meditation, or spontaneously, it just happened, in an instant, unexpectedly.

This does sound like the experience of the 3rd jhana, and for those who consistently experience the 3rd jhana during daily meditation practice will often begin to experience this lose of self, accompanied by heightened awareness and insight at random moments during the day.

Later, when walking home, there was a subtle effort to maintain a sense of bearings, of where 'I' was,  attention would shift from where 'I' was going, to the texture of the experience of where 'I' was. Subtle, but interesting.

These phenomena are only just beginning to be seen and so haven't been explored with any depth. There is awarness that non-dual practices, dzogchen, advaita vedanta, mahamudra, deal with these issues, but I have as yet not read the literature associated with these experiences this body is having, and wonder if you might be able to shed some light on this here.

William

Your last description indeed sounded like the typical 3rd jhana experience.  Do you meditate everyday?  How long are you typical meditation sessions?

I have done, 1-2 hours usually, but I can't say its everyday now; however, I seem to have meditative experiences more frequently through out the day. Some times it arises spontaneously, some times it's just a shift of attention to something I notice in my experience, and sometimes its just an all pervasive subtle awareness of a background presence of this. The non-dual teachings that I have encountered in the last few months, mostly as talks that I listen to while I am out, have often prompted an insight, or state, or a seeing of something more clearly while within a state. They have been useful in deconstructing beliefs and seeing the fabricated nature of self more clearly. It feels a bit like going through a paradigm shift, with so much to let go of, uprooting uncomfortable baggage, and getting use to the feeling of being a little more free, in a sense.

[Alexander]

I inquired on another forum regarding some of the things I mentioned above about seeing the field of vision as a single connected piece, one reply was as follows:

"... as for anatta, an insight has to arise that sees through the inherent view of a subjective essence - that sees through the very delusion of an agent, a seer, hearer, thinker, etc behind hearing-sound, seeing-sight (and seeing is merely that experience of sight). One dissolves the tendency of conceiving a changeless, inherent self/Self. This is not merely non-dual experience by subsuming everything as self. Furthermore there is a difference between an experience of no-mind, in which one experiences simply the sounds/space/sensation as all there is, and realizing anatta to be what is always already the case. In summary, an experience of the dissolution of sense of separation into 'only the experience' (as a peak experience) is not the same as realizing that the subjective self/agent behind experience has always been a delusion, and always in hearing just sound no hearer, etc etc. There is a distinction between 'experience' and 'realization'."

This one just sounds like nonsense to me. Keep in mind most of the people who offer their opinions on topics like this have no experience of samadhi.

[william]

This same member referred me to their article on the topic of 'experience vs realization':

http://awakeningtoreality.blogspot.com.au/2011/12/experience-realization-view-practice.html

Which is a whole e-book. I have only dipped into it.

I had described my experience as follows (more or less): one day, in what I recall was 3rd Jhana, after closing my eyes, I put my attention on sound, after a while the sound became a field of sound, and I literally became the field of sound, the sound appeared all at once like a single 'piece', a continuum, a field of awareness which was nothing but sound. 'I' WAS the sound. There was no self to experience that, the self had completely dissolved into the sound alone. It could be seen that there was nothing outside or inside of that field of sound. But, I could also shift my attention back to a 3D representation of those sounds occurring in a 'space' which I was also in.

So while it is true that this 'field of sound' that 'I' became did not have the realization that "separation has been false right from the beginning... there never was separation," would that 'realization' not be inherent to the experience itself? Something that you could reflect on and say, oh yeah, cool, this is real, duality has always been false. But that might not be apparent the first few times you experience it.

From my basic description of my experience of sound above, this member replied, 'thats good...but that's not realization...' as I quoted above.

They say in that link to their article:

Hence merely having temporary non-dual samadhis are *not* enlightenment... why? The realization that there never was separation to begin with, hasn't arisen. Therefore you can only have temporary glimpses and experiences of non-duality... where the latent dualistic tendencies continue to surface... and not have seamless, effortless seeing.

They continue:

In One Mind, seer and seen are one inseparable seeing, one naked awareness – it is the inseparability of seer and seen instead of realizing no subject, no agent, no observer.

And, in conclusion, they restate what I think I was saying:

...It is an important phase however, as for the first time phenomena are no longer seen as 'happening IN Awareness' but 'happening AS Awareness' – Awareness is its object of perception (or rather, all objects of perceptions are subsumed to be Awareness itself), Awareness is expressing itself as every moment of manifest perception.

With all due respect, maybe they are right, I am here/there to listen and learn, I came to Jhana via spontaneous awakenings which I then attempted to understand, and so the background descriptive machinery which I am finding is also important, is definitely my area of 'weakness.'

[Jhanananda]

In the following posts it became clear that this was a case history, so I moved the topic there.

Almost from the moment that I lie down to meditate (bad back), I feel the presence of the 1st Jhana. A calm, gentle, cool breath comes as though from no where; if I have a cold or stuffy nose, the sinus passages will clear.

This does sound like the 1st stage of the religious experience (1st jhana).

I immediately bring attention to the non sensory tingling sensation that is always most present in the feet and palms. The intensity will increase and begin to move through out the body.

This sounds more like the 3rd stage of the religious experience (3rd jhana), because the non sensory tingling sensations are charisms, which typically arise in the 3rd stage of the religious experience (3rd jhana).

I often do a kind of yoga nidra, moving the attention around the body, starting with the tips of the toes and fingers.

This practice is introductory, and quite a bit like U Bha Kin body scanning.  Once you can still your mind, you no longer need such mental games.  If you just still your mind, and allow the charisms to flood your awareness, then I am sure you will find yourself going much deeper.

Unpredictably the energy seems to reach a kind of bifurcation point, and then woosh! Thought stops as though the rug had just been pulled out from under you, there is a glorious blissful release of all stress and anxiety off of the chest as though an enormous weight had been lifted off revealing infinite open space within (but just in darkness, nothing visual, just a feeling sensation). There is nothing like it, totally ecstatic bliss and joy, there is no question about it!

This is consistent with the 3rd stage of the religious experience (3rd jhana), especially the energy.  I suspect before this your mind is already fairly still, which would be the 2nd stage of the religious experience (2nd jhana).

However, however, the degree of intensity has decreased over the years, it changes from day to day, I just sort of slip into it now. I can be thinking about something else entirely, forget that I'm supposed to be meditating, and then there's the shift and my attention is suddenly pulled back to it, not sure why this has changed like this, age?

If we spend enough years meditating every day, then we need not move through the 8 stages of the religious experience (samadhi) in a linear way.  You might find more consistency in your meditation experiences if you master keeping your mind still, and your attention upon the charisms all day.

Yes, 3rd Jhana then sometimes arises, and I have previously called it a state of non perception, but I see it really is just perception itself, where the most prominent aspect is emptiness and transparency. I never think equanimity, but that is indeed what it is. A pleasant abiding in the hear and now, free from suffering (and what has been seen more recently as the loss of self, identity, which when seen as such, would mean freedom from being affected by thoughts and beliefs that were once tied to identification with a separate self).

This continues to sound like the 3rd stage of the religious experience (3rd jhana).

As above, yes, that really seems to be what is happening, the sense of self is being transcended, or released. Which is interesting how when the sphere of thoughts-beliefs-mental constructs dissolve into pure consciousness, its not really like going from 2 to 1, but more like 1 to 0. Non-dual anyways.

Again, this continues to sound like the 3rd stage of the religious experience (3rd jhana).

I get lost too quickly with the more subtle nuance of the philosophy itself. I inquired on another forum regarding some of the things I mentioned above about seeing the field of vision as a single connected piece, one reply was as follows:

"... as for anatta, an insight has to arise that sees through the inherent view of a subjective essence - that sees through the very delusion of an agent, a seer, hearer, thinker, etc behind hearing-sound, seeing-sight (and seeing is merely that experience of sight). One dissolves the tendency of conceiving a changeless, inherent self/Self. This is not merely non-dual experience by subsuming everything as self. Furthermore there is a difference between an experience of no-mind, in which one experiences simply the sounds/space/sensation as all there is, and realizing anatta to be what is always already the case. In summary, an experience of the dissolution of sense of separation into 'only the experience' (as a peak experience) is not the same as realizing that the subjective self/agent behind experience has always been a delusion, and always in hearing just sound no hearer, etc etc. There is a distinction between 'experience' and 'realization'."

I don't really no what they mean, but maybe that is what I experience, not sure.

I am with aglorincz, this persons sounds like they think to much and do not meditate enough.  While philosophies can help us, they can also be a great hindrance.  It is better to seek the actually experience, as you are doing, and forget about the philosophies.  Philosophy will just come to you from deep meditation, which will be far beyond what this person you quoted could comprehend.

I have done, 1-2 hours usually, but I can't say its everyday now; however, I seem to have meditative experiences more frequently through out the day. Some times it arises spontaneously, some times it's just a shift of attention to something I notice in my experience, and sometimes its just an all pervasive subtle awareness of a background presence of this. The non-dual teachings that I have encountered in the last few months, mostly as talks that I listen to while I am out, have often prompted an insight, or state, or a seeing of something more clearly while within a state. They have been useful in deconstructing beliefs and seeing the fabricated nature of self more clearly. It feels a bit like going through a paradigm shift, with so much to let go of, uprooting uncomfortable baggage, and getting use to the feeling of being a little more free, in a sense.

The 3rd stage of the religious experience (3rd jhana) is very much like Alice in Wonderland, who has gone through the looking glass, or rabbit hole; so you are no doubt experiencing radical paradigm shifts far beyond what the non-dualist you are listening to could ever comprehend, because in most cases Advaitans do not meditate.  They just do too much thinking. 

I had described my experience as follows (more or less): one day, in what I recall was 3rd Jhana, after closing my eyes, I put my attention on sound, after a while the sound became a field of sound, and I literally became the field of sound, the sound appeared all at once like a single 'piece', a continuum, a field of awareness which was nothing but sound. 'I' WAS the sound. There was no self to experience that, the self had completely dissolved into the sound alone. It could be seen that there was nothing outside or inside of that field of sound. But, I could also shift my attention back to a 3D representation of those sounds occurring in a 'space' which I was also in.

So while it is true that this 'field of sound' that 'I' became did not have the realization that "separation has been false right from the beginning... there never was separation," would that 'realization' not be inherent to the experience itself? Something that you could reflect on and say, oh yeah, cool, this is real, duality has always been false. But that might not be apparent the first few times you experience it.

This is classic 3rd jhana, which is known in the suttas as the second liberation.

From my basic description of my experience of sound above, this member replied, 'thats good...but that's not realization...' as I quoted above.

They say in that link to their article:

Hence merely having temporary non-dual samadhis are *not* enlightenment... why? The realization that there never was separation to begin with, hasn't arisen. Therefore you can only have temporary glimpses and experiences of non-duality... where the latent dualistic tendencies continue to surface... and not have seamless, effortless seeing.

They continue:

In One Mind, seer and seen are one inseparable seeing, one naked awareness – it is the inseparability of seer and seen instead of realizing no subject, no agent, no observer.

And, in conclusion, they restate what I think I was saying:

...It is an important phase however, as for the first time phenomena are no longer seen as 'happening IN Awareness' but 'happening AS Awareness' – Awareness is its object of perception (or rather, all objects of perceptions are subsumed to be Awareness itself), Awareness is expressing itself as every moment of manifest perception.

With all due respect, maybe they are right, I am here/there to listen and learn, I came to Jhana via spontaneous awakenings which I then attempted to understand, and so the background descriptive machinery which I am finding is also important, is definitely my area of 'weakness.'

Really this person is clueless.  Soon, hopefully, you will have the insight in support this conclusion.

Good work, keep it up

[william]

Thank you, Jeffrey. That is very interesting to hear.

I feel quite a clear distinction between what I was calling the 2nd and 3rd Jhana, and so I will try to describe that here. I can see that 1st Jhana then is always present, as a background presence that includes very soft but constant ringing in both ears, which can intensify when I meditate, and so that background presence is 1st Jhana? And that would be why I feel that I am there immediately when I close my eyes to meditate.

Then when the tingling begins to arise, I can see how that would be the start of 2nd, which I thought was just an extension of 1st. But when the energy of 2nd 'lifts off' into the ecstasy of 3rd, that will usually just wash over and subside, it does not often settle into the 'emptiness', or state of non-perception, which I mentioned above.

When the 'emptiness', or pure non-reactive perception, of 3rd is experienced through meditation, or if it arises spontaneously, it is always accompanied by the opening of the 3rd eye. Always. A very strong, extra sensory-like sensation in the area of the 3rd eye. It will last all day at the same level of intensity, sometimes growing in intensity, and does not subside until I go to bed, and usually even then I do not sleep well as it keeps the mind awake.

So is 3rd Jhana then a much broader plateau, with these two aspects of ecstasy followed by emptiness, or is there more? Usually the ecstatic bliss component will wash over and subside. Sometimes emptiness will follow, but not so often.

Which makes the experience I had of 3rd the other day while on the way to work, unusual, as the 3rd eye did not open, and it was much more like a 'falling away' of identification, than the more typical 'arising' and 'opening' of the 3rd eye that the body usually associates with 3rd Jhana. The thought occurred to me, has it become 'integrated'? No more training wheels? When you find your balance, they fall away, and you've got it?

How does the 4th Jhana typically manifest? I am wondering now if I haven't touched upon it previously at some point.

 

[Jhanananda]

Thank you, Jeffrey. That is very interesting to hear.

I feel quite a clear distinction between what I was calling the 2nd and 3rd Jhana, and so I will try to describe that here. I can see that 1st Jhana then is always present, as a background presence that includes very soft but constant ringing in both ears, which can intensify when I meditate, and so that background presence is 1st Jhana? And that would be why I feel that I am there immediately when I close my eyes to meditate.

Not necessarily first jhana.  First jhana is the first inkling of something good that comes from a spiritual life.  Second jhana is the stilling of the mind.  The 3rd jhana is equanimity, and charisms.  The charism of sound is typical of the 3rd jhana.  Since you are experiencing the sound charism as a background sound, and you meditate a few hours a day, then you are most probably functioning at the level of the 3rd jhana all of the time. 

The stages of the religious experience (samadhi) are none linear, especially for those who have facility for them. Since you meditate a few hours a day; and you are functioning at the level of the 3rd jhana all of the time, then when you begin meditation you most probably drop into a deeper, or more lucid level, of the 3rd jhana.  If you developed some skill with deep meditation, then you are likely to be able to drop to one or more levels of depth with little effort.

Then when the tingling begins to arise, I can see how that would be the start of 2nd, which I thought was just an extension of 1st. But when the energy of 2nd 'lifts off' into the ecstasy of 3rd, that will usually just wash over and subside, it does not often settle into the 'emptiness', or state of non-perception, which I mentioned above.

This energy level that your are discussing sound to me to be more like the 4th jhana.  If you can hone your mediation practice to get to this level consistently, then you are likely to drop into the 4th when you start to meditate.

When the 'emptiness', or pure non-reactive perception, of 3rd is experienced through meditation, or if it arises spontaneously, it is always accompanied by the opening of the 3rd eye. Always. A very strong, extra sensory-like sensation in the area of the 3rd eye. It will last all day at the same level of intensity, sometimes growing in intensity, and does not subside until I go to bed, and usually even then I do not sleep well as it keeps the mind awake.

At this point just keep that sensation at the 3rd eye (6th chakra) alive 24-7, and you will be doing quite well.

So is 3rd Jhana then a much broader plateau, with these two aspects of ecstasy followed by emptiness, or is there more? Usually the ecstatic bliss component will wash over and subside. Sometimes emptiness will follow, but not so often.

Oh, yeah, there are 7 more levels go.  So, keep going.

Which makes the experience I had of 3rd the other day while on the way to work, unusual, as the 3rd eye did not open, and it was much more like a 'falling away' of identification, than the more typical 'arising' and 'opening' of the 3rd eye that the body usually associates with 3rd Jhana. The thought occurred to me, has it become 'integrated'? No more training wheels? When you find your balance, they fall away, and you've got it?

Dump the training wheels, and you will be well on your way.  Dumping the training wheels is mastering keeping your mind still 24-7, except when you need it like a pocket calculator.

How does the 4th Jhana typically manifest? I am wondering now if I haven't touched upon it previously at some point.

I expect that you have been tapping into the 4th jhana at times.  The 4th jhana is typically described as a timeless dimension, where one feels as if one could meditate as if for ever; and when one ends the meditation session one will be surprised to find an hour or more will have passed when it only seemed like minutes; however, there is still a sense of body and sensory phenomena, even though the sense of self will be even more diminished.  Good work keep it up.

[william]

Thank you, Jeffrey. That has helped clarify many of the concerns I have had over the last few years.

I experienced quite a profound seeing last night, releasing what I would call the identity, but which in fact appears more like all of the tensions and pain held in the body. I felt all of that very gradually dissolve, knots, pains, and in the 3rd chakra (two fists above the belly button) became what felt like a sparkler, very intense opening of energy and release of a knot there.

I'll need some time to reflect on all of that, but what appeared as the identity, from the vantage point of being in union with the higher self - 4th jhana - was how the identity seems like a complex network of interconnected tensions with corresponding beliefs. Maybe that is not accurate, but I stayed with what seemed like a process of dissolving much of that tension so that I became non reactive, not to outer stimuli, but to pain and tensions that seem to arise when identifying with that level of awareness. Revelatory insight poured in and I recorded many of those insights as this process unfolded over the course of a few hours. The insights would pour in, then there would be long periods of being totally blissed out, with an intensification of energy.

With no effort, the fields of sight and sound became single pieces, a single continuum, sounds seemed louder than normal, and there was in those few hours a sense of liberation from suffering. I'll need to reflect on this a little more, and return to this another time.

[Jhanananda]

William, it sounds like you have had true insight, and far greater depth than all of those famous "insight" meditation teachers, who do not seem to understand what true insight is, but clearly you have had the direct experience of it.  Keep coming back to practice that yields results, such as this, and you will do very well.

[william]

Thank you Jeffrey for those encouraging words, there seems to be better progress than I have been making for a while, so thank you for your help and support with this.

Last night I was amazed to find I had entered 4th Jhana (with certainty!). I meditated in the morning for an hour, and found that carried through the day, in a subtle, still way. After work, my energy was good, a bit 'erotic' somehow, I walked into a park and sat on a bench and immediately my 3rd eye opened with a most exquisite sensation and clarity. I went home and meditated. I must have lost awareness of whatever I was focused on, I didn't fall sleep, but just all of a sudden I became aware of the body, with a strange level of awareness that seemed somewhat out of body, the body lay as though it were asleep, and I was aware of that. And like you said, I could have lay there forever, I knew I could move if I wanted, but I didn't, there was no urge, no boredom, no agitation, no worry, nothing. But the body was not empty, it was 'full', energized, or rather like I was at peace with just being energy alone. After a while, I decided to see if I could meditate further, increase the energy, but nothing happened, a bit more energized, I wondered if I could slip out of body and travel somewhere, but nothing happened. Thoughts, narrating thoughts that wanted to try to explain what was going on were annoying, irritating, like they wanted to pull me back to something familiar, I tried to just be, not let them arise. I felt compassion for people that I once felt I hated, or despised for one reason or another, I wanted to put my arm around them and feel their suffering, tell them it was ok, not to worry, I wanted to help them even though I knew their behavior towards me was meant to tell me that they did not care about me. Something like that. I eventually got up, and felt very normal, my old self, and went about my evening as usual, oddly enough.

Is there any sort of way or technique for going to the next level, Jeffrey, is the 5th Jhana, or whatever follows, necessarily OOB? Or can the non-material Jhana also be experienced without going OOB?

[Jhanananda]

Very good William, it indeed sounds like you found the 4th jhana.  Yes, the 4th jhana is at the fringe of the OOBE, and the 5th samadhi and above, which are not jhanas, they are all OOBEs.

The trick with going out-of-body is rather simple really.  Once you have arrived at the 4th jhana, then you can roll out of body and fly wherever you want to go.  You want to visit people who have done harm to you, so that you can show them compassion? No problem.  You want to fly at tree top?  No problem.  You want to fly to the moon?  No problem.  You want to fly to hell to save souls?  No problem.  You want to fly to heaven?  No problem.

It does help to build lucidity in the sleep state, and journaling your dreams helps with gaining lucidity.