NDE

[Sam Lim]

I've just watched this video and it's devoid of all the cultural baggage that comes with a Near Death Experience.
Worth watching if you want a more worthwhile spiritual life.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IevkB7Wzdn0&index=1&list=PLlbnV0pwEERo6pY2HeP_PuhAvl6NuWPxu

[Jhanananda]

Please note that I split this topic off from Sam's blog, and redirected it to the OOBE section, because OOBEs and NDEs seem like the same phenomena, and this woman's record indicates that.

Thanks, Sam, I found the video very interesting.  Her NDE is reported around 9 minutes into the video.  Her particular experience of "downloading" information to and from spirit beings is quite a bit like how I experience communication in an OOBE.  Also, her interaction with beings of light is quite a bit like my experience of one of the layers of the immaterial domains, while in an OOBE.

An interesting piece here is the "pop" that she experienced coming back into her body at about 41 minutes in.  People who return from OOBEs often experience a loud sound, like a pop, or a gunshot, or a door slamming.  I often have experienced such loud noises upon reentry to the body after an OOBE.

In conclusion, Natalie Sudman's NDE certainly reads like a genuine NDE, and here description of her NDE experience also reads like a genuine OOBE; however, there are more people claiming to have either one experience or the other, but their stories do not read like either genuine experience.  From studying the Pali Canon NDE and the OOBE both read like the ayatana level samadhi experience as described there.  The ayatana level samadhi experience is what is mistakenly called "arupa-jhana" in the commentaries.

Interesting to note that Natalie Sudman and I seem to have quite a bit in common, as she lives in Benson, AZ, and she is an archaeologist, as well as an artist.  Her book is Application of Impossible Things, Out of Body in Iraq

[Sam Lim]

Yes. I found her experience really genuine in the sense that her experience concur with mine. The popping back to the material is exactly the same. That's why I posted it here as I cannot describe my experience. She does a very good job of describing the experience .

[Michel]

Thank you for sharing, Sam. I just got the Kindle edition of her book.

Natalie Sudman writes about her psychic experiences:

Since I was a child, I’ve had precognitive dreams and waking “visions.” Ever since I can remember, I’ve been acutely aware of the energy of buildings and old battlefields and have often seen and interacted with spirits. I’ve had out-of-body experiences, given accurate psychic readings for friends and strangers, and journeyed through worlds and dimensions as shamans do. As evidence, however, I can’t comfortably present these experiences as proof or validation of any authority I might have in the subject of the paranormal. In only a few instances have I shared an experience with someone who could attest to its truth.

Sudman, Natalie (2012-04-16). Application of Impossible Things - My Near Death Experience in Iraq (Kindle Locations 102-107). Ozark Mountain Publishing, Inc.. Kindle Edition.

[Jhanananda]

Thanks, Michel, for reading her book, and choosing an excellent quote.  I am not surprised that she had been psychic and had OOBEs before her NDE, because it all goes together.

I sent her an email, and she responded, and I sent her an invite to this forum.  Perhaps she will see some value in becoming a member, and contributor.

[Alexander]

She said in that interview she didn't tell anyone about her experience, she just wrote the book. She might be very happy to learn about the forum.

[Natalie]

Hi, Natalie Sudman here ... Glad some of you have enjoyed the interviews and book. I haven't had a chance to read around on the forum, just this string (or whatever it's called ... I'm not very familiar with forums). Looks like an emphasis is on "genuine" or not. Maybe that's due to discussion on the string this was separated from? Not sure that ever occurred to me, as the information contained within any account is what matters to me. Re "no cultural baggage" - it was important for me to write my account in a language and context that was as universal as I could make it. I doubt anything can exist without cultural baggage of some kind, but I'm very aware of how religious dogmas and structures can turn people off (incl everything from Christian to New Age). Since, in my experience, these experiences are universally available, i think it's of more value to speak about them in everyday language instead of language of religion (for instance), which may limit people's thinking by triggering connotations, definitions instead of expanding the potentials of thought.

Re the last comment about my not talking about the experience, just writing the book and so I may be happy to find this forum ... Always interested to find communities discussing beingness. I'm not really a person who cares whether I talk something over or not, I guess - ha - this is considered a flaw by some people who know me :-) ... It can be interesting and engaging, but is never critical , perhaps because for me communication is more accurately, thoroughly and often easily done through other means. Or because it's an old habit to trust and rely on my own knowing. Or whatever, ...  I've certainly had plenty of discussion since the book came out!

Anyway, thanks for your interest in the book.

[Sam Lim]

A very warm welcome to the forum Natalie. I've enjoyed the videos that have been posted on youtube.

There is an incident which very much coincided with mine that you went into an OOBE and told your father to either to go back to the body or to move on.

I had a student who was deceased now, call me on the phone one day and told me that one of his niece is dying of dengue fever and approached me for help. Well, I have an OOBE and met the niece in a void and told her to get back to the body and move on. At that time I was in Singapore and she was in India. The doctor told the student to prepare for the worse as they are unable to do anything more. Strangely, the next day she became well and came out of the coma and began to talk. Soon after, she was completely healed. Just wanted to share that with you.

[Jhanananda]

Welcome, Natalie, to this forum, where we discuss the religious experience as a "fruit of the contemplative life."  The phrase "fruit of the contemplative life" comes from the second book (sutta) in the Large Discourses of the Buddha (Digha Nikaya).

Hi, Natalie Sudman here ... Glad some of you have enjoyed the interviews and book. I haven't had a chance to read around on the forum, just this string (or whatever it's called ... I'm not very familiar with forums). Looks like an emphasis is on "genuine" or not. Maybe that's due to discussion on the string this was separated from? Not sure that ever occurred to me, as the information contained within any account is what matters to me.

We here spend a fair amount of time unpacking religious experiences as expressed in world religious literature, and current accounts, and our own accounts.  That is how we ended up with a link to your NDE account, which I authenticated based on its similitude to OOBEs that I have had, and many of our case histories here.

The significance of authenticating religious experience here is there are a lot of claims of religious experience, with little classification taking place, and most of the claims are generally religious psychosis.

Re "no cultural baggage" - it was important for me to write my account in a language and context that was as universal as I could make it. I doubt anything can exist without cultural baggage of some kind, but I'm very aware of how religious dogmas and structures can turn people off (incl everything from Christian to New Age). Since, in my experience, these experiences are universally available, i think it's of more value to speak about them in everyday language instead of language of religion (for instance), which may limit people's thinking by triggering connotations, definitions instead of expanding the potentials of thought.

I certainly value the dumping of religious language and just describing the experience as it was; however, that is not my emphasis.  My emphasis, as an anthropologist who studies religious experiences as a participant observer is to show how the religious experience is indeed universally available, and I have done the homework to show that.

The other problem as I see in describing the religious experience in plain language is there are so very many aspects of the religious experience that there simply is no language to describe it, unless one indeed invokes religious language.  However, unfortunately most terms for the various aspects of the religious experience in the various religions has undergone considerable language shift, so that has to be accounted for as well.  Another job for an anthropologist who studies religious experiences as a participant observer.

I had a student who was deceased now, call me on the phone one day and told me that one of his niece is dying of dengue fever and approached me for help. Well, I have an OOBE and met the niece in a void and told her to get back to the body and move on. At that time I was in Singapore and she was in India. The doctor told the student to prepare for the worse as they are unable to do anything more. Strangely, the next day she became well and came out of the coma and began to talk. Soon after, she was completely healed. Just wanted to share that with you.

Very impressive, gandarloda.  I have had a number of experiences with the sick, and the dead.  What comes to mind right now is a few months after my father died, I had an OOBE to him, and I could smell the stink of his body, so I told my father to let go of his body and move on.  That was my last encounter with my father.

[Jhanon]

This is terribly interesting. Thank you everyone for contributing to a stellar thread. I've had little experience with OOBE, and so one thing caught my eyes most:

Jhananda
"An interesting piece here is the "pop" that she experienced coming back into her body at about 41 minutes in.  People who return from OOBEs often experience a loud sound, like a pop, or a gunshot, or a door slamming.  I often have experienced such loud noises upon reentry to the body after an OOBE."

I'm not sure why I never realized it before, but now I'm aware i've had some OOBE's that I wasn't aware of. Rougeleader and I talked about it in another thread. Upon reading the above quote, I remember meditating one time laying down on the bed. Suddenly I heard what I thought was a door slam was aware that I was propped straight up, coming back to the human plane. At that exact moment, my partner walked into the room (the door was shut, so she had to open it.) I was extremely confused, because I couldn't recall the last 40 minutes. I asked her what was going on, if she had slammed a door shut. And she said "no, I came in here and you were sitting up like that." It was very confusing. I couldn't figure out what happened. I still don't know. Maybe I'll try to view it.

[Jhanananda]

Yes, the loud, startling sound, such as: gun shot, door slam, etc, is classic reentry into the body after an OOBE.NDE.

[Natalie]

Thanks for the welcome.

Gandarloda, beautiful. I like reading this story of yours.

Re the loud noise upon re-entry into the body ... When I went out of body back in the 80s I never heard any noise when I re-entered.  I know it's common, but I wouldn't consider it at all universal. I also know some people through the Monroe Institute who regularly go out of body, and a rocket scientist who does, and they don't often hear that noise, they tell me.

Another loud noise story ... At the moment the bomb detonated under my truck in Iraq, my partner in Maryland was woken by what he describes as "the loudest explosion I've ever heard." He jumped out of bed and ran all around the house. Finding nothing, he ran outside and tore around the neighborhood looking for wreckage of some kind. Later when we talked about it, we concluded that he heard the bomb explode.

Jhanananda, it is hard to describe "religious" experiences in plain language because the language doesn't really have words for it outside religious jargon, I agree, but maybe not impossible I would hope. I think it at least helps to define the terms I'm using and why I use them (which I do in my book a few times), whether their words that originate in the world of science, religion, or other. Doing that can at least broaden assumed connotations, opening the mind to new concepts or possibilities.

Although I worked as a survey archeologist for many years, I'm not formally trained in Anthro/archeology, and find many methods in Anthro odd so thanks for describing some of what you do.

[Jhanananda]

Re the loud noise upon re-entry into the body ... When I went out of body back in the 80s I never heard any noise when I re-entered.  I know it's common, but I wouldn't consider it at all universal. I also know some people through the Monroe Institute who regularly go out of body, and a rocket scientist who does, and they don't often hear that noise, they tell me.

The loud noise upon reentering the body after an OOBE is not universal, but it is common enough to be recognized.  Of course you have the explosion, which could be recorded in your brain and get replayed from time to time.

Another loud noise story ... At the moment the bomb detonated under my truck in Iraq, my partner in Maryland was woken by what he describes as "the loudest explosion I've ever heard." He jumped out of bed and ran all around the house. Finding nothing, he ran outside and tore around the neighborhood looking for wreckage of some kind. Later when we talked about it, we concluded that he heard the bomb explode.

This is interesting.  I guess it goes to the depth of your connection, and would be explained by a psychic transference at the moment of the explosion.

Jhanananda, it is hard to describe "religious" experiences in plain language because the language doesn't really have words for it outside religious jargon, I agree, but maybe not impossible I would hope. I think it at least helps to define the terms I'm using and why I use them (which I do in my book a few times), whether their words that originate in the world of science, religion, or other. Doing that can at least broaden assumed connotations, opening the mind to new concepts or possibilities.

I agree that we need to define our terms, especially when describing a religious experience.  By the way I use the term "religious experience" because it is in the language already.  I personally do not like the term, but it is part of the language that is used to describe non-physical experiences. 

I am also willing to consider that a "new" experience is available to someone, but when we examine the literature of non-physical experience it describes such broad phenomena that so far I have not bumped into a description of non-physical phenomena that has not been described elsewhere.  In most cases we have terms that have been in use for a long time.  If anything too often the term has been misused for a long time, and has to be corrected, such as the term 'kundalini.'

Although I worked as a survey archeologist for many years, I'm not formally trained in Anthro/archeology, and find many methods in Anthro odd so thanks for describing some of what you do.

Yes, I too did field archaeology until my health went down the tubes, and I worked with quite a few people who were not formally trained in anthropology or archaeology. 

I too have some problems with the way anthropology deals with religion, such as mostly it is just a bunch of boring minutia, which is just recorded and never unpack.  So, my work in unpacking and classifying the religious experience is more philosophical or theological, but I employ the tools of linguistics and the case history.