In search of understanding...

[Cal]

Meditation sessions have been very painful. Making the choice to be "half in and half out" definitely comes with a consequence. I am able to meditate to the second jhana, I slow my mind, but the transition to the third is met with such a burning that i cannot move any further. My whole body burns, i sweat, and the distraction is too much to proceed. I have stuck with it, however, i generally cannot more than 30-45 minutes. Ill lay there, just burning, telling myself that i must endure this.

I believe this is a product of not living a fully self aware life. I have allowed myself to "think" more than i should be. I interact on a social level, or try to, and set daily goals and let myself be apart of more worldly things. I visit this forum daily, and have thought to begin reading into the 5 aggregates again, as I feel this is the correct coarse to solve this. I hesitate still, perhaps its like Sam said, its fear. It is fear.

Has this been something that has been discussed before? I understand the burning, but the intensity I do not. I read here that the burning is the dropping away of fetters, desire, is it that I have so many that it would be this intense? I know the path that i am walking is not the correct path, not a path to enlightenment. Has this time span been a dark night of the soul? Is it something that I continue to endure? So many questions, all selfish in nature.

One of the most notable things in my recent meditations is the moving of energy through chakra points. I am no longer able to move, or feel anything from my heart chakra. The other points are noticable to me, not as they were, slightly less. I have noticed that I care alot less about everything. Not like i was, its not equanimity, its selfishness, I just dont care about others around me. I write this in honesty as I do want it to change.

Perhaps there is something I can read, or specific actions i can take?

[Jhanananda]

Meditation sessions have been very painful. Making the choice to be "half in and half out" definitely comes with a consequence. I am able to meditate to the second jhana, I slow my mind, but the transition to the third is met with such a burning that i cannot move any further. My whole body burns, i sweat, and the distraction is too much to proceed. I have stuck with it, however, i generally cannot more than 30-45 minutes. Ill lay there, just burning, telling myself that i must endure this.

Yes, I recall when I first encountered this stage I was attending a 10-day meditation retreat, and it was about mid-retreat when it arose.  I thought I would go screaming mad.  I just sat with it, hour after hour, day after day, until it gave way to a flood of blissful charisms. 

I have been calling this phase depth in meditation the 'hypersensitive phase." I know from experience that this phase precedes the 3rd jhana.  So, if one can sit through it, then the pay-off is pretty impressive ecstasy, which is accompanied by a very durable level of equanimity; and it takes deep equanimity to get through the hypersensitive phase.

The  hypersensitive phase is so difficult to get through that it is understandable why most contemplatives never get through it, and tend to avoid it with the erroneous belief that it is an evil place.

I believe this is a product of not living a fully self aware life. I have allowed myself to "think" more than i should be. I interact on a social level, or try to, and set daily goals and let myself be apart of more worldly things. I visit this forum daily, and have thought to begin reading into the 5 aggregates again, as I feel this is the correct coarse to solve this. I hesitate still, perhaps its like Sam said, its fear. It is fear.

This is a good assessment.  When we withdraw from the sensory world, we develop equanimity, and are not so attached to the sensory domain.

The cause of this hypersensitive phase of meditation is due to the mind misinterpreting the charisms as sensory input.

Has this been something that has been discussed before? I understand the burning, but the intensity I do not. I read here that the burning is the dropping away of fetters, desire, is it that I have so many that it would be this intense? I know the path that i am walking is not the correct path, not a path to enlightenment. Has this time span been a dark night of the soul? Is it something that I continue to endure? So many questions, all selfish in nature.

Yes, we have discussed it before here Dark Night of the Soul

One of the most notable things in my recent meditations is the moving of energy through chakra points. I am no longer able to move, or feel anything from my heart chakra. The other points are noticable to me, not as they were, slightly less. I have noticed that I care alot less about everything. Not like i was, its not equanimity, its selfishness, I just dont care about others around me. I write this in honesty as I do want it to change.

Perhaps there is something I can read, or specific actions i can take?

This is all part of the transformation.

Please note: that I have started having power source problems with my inverter, so it is now limiting my time on line for WIFI camping from my van.  So, if I am not available as much, or do not respond to all inquires, then this is why.  I will have to sign off now, to charge my batteries after sun rise.

[Michel]

The cause of this hypersensitive phase of meditation is due to the mind misinterpreting the charisms as sensory input.

What do you mean, Jhananda? Could you elaborate, please?

[Cal]

Meditation sessions have been very painful. Making the choice to be "half in and half out" definitely comes with a consequence. I am able to meditate to the second jhana, I slow my mind, but the transition to the third is met with such a burning that i cannot move any further. My whole body burns, i sweat, and the distraction is too much to proceed. I have stuck with it, however, i generally cannot more than 30-45 minutes. Ill lay there, just burning, telling myself that i must endure this.

Yes, I recall when I first encountered this stage I was attending a 10-day meditation retreat, and it was about mid-retreat when it arose.  I thought I would go screaming mad.  I just sat with it, hour after hour, day after day, until it gave way to a flood of blissful charisms. 

I have been calling this phase depth in meditation the 'hypersensitive phase." I know from experience that this phase precedes the 3rd jhana.  So, if one can sit through it, then the pay-off is pretty impressive ecstasy, which is accompanied by a very durable level of equanimity; and it takes deep equanimity to get through the hypersensitive phase.

The  hypersensitive phase is so difficult to get through that it is understandable why most contemplatives never get through it, and tend to avoid it with the erroneous belief that it is an evil place.

I recall going through this once before, after my awakening. However, it was not to this degree. Perhaps I have regressed? I had read the posts from Michael hawkins and Alexander on the Dark night of the soul, and they resonated then, even more-so now. However I take a closer look at Emily and Anastasia from Alexander, and it is a mix of both of these, and not clear. The sleepnessness and restlessness from emily, and the struggle from Anastasia both resonate very loudly.  The shadows in the dark, the faces, the burning, those are all very apparent as well.  I feel like I am stuck in some midway point, but the answer is surrender. The audible charism is frustrating, it never leaves me, all day I hear it. It is miserable without comfort, this state......

I meditated last night again, as i do every night. The burning sensation came in waves, but it relinquished from time to time, and I was excited, but this caused regression in my session and did not further to the next stage. If right now I was to pack up and walk away, I know doubtlessly that I could navigate this. Why has it come to this choice? It has always been this choice.

[Cal]

The cause of this hypersensitive phase of meditation is due to the mind misinterpreting the charisms as sensory input.

What do you mean, Jhananda? Could you elaborate, please?

The body/mind believes the aura/spirit is an affliction. This happens because of the lack of equanimity. Basically at the transition from the 2nd to 3rd jhana your mind has been stilled and thus seperated allowing equanimity. Its partly why I am so confused. I have experienced this many many times, its clear to me, the transition is apparent and I recognize it.

[Jhanananda]

The cause of this hypersensitive phase of meditation is due to the mind misinterpreting the charisms as sensory input.

What do you mean, Jhananda? Could you elaborate, please?

Sure, first to experience the charisms we must become very sensitive, which is part of why we become hypersenstive after stilling the mind.  But, then the charisms begin to arise, but the mind is habituated to sensory experience, so it does not know how to interpret the charisms, so we need to quiet the mind more, which is called 'equanimity.'  Then, the mind no longer tries to interpret the charisms, and we begin to witness them as raw input.

I recall going through this once before, after my awakening. However, it was not to this degree. Perhaps I have regressed? I had read the posts from Michael hawkins and Alexander on the Dark night of the soul, and they resonated then, even more-so now. However I take a closer look at Emily and Anastasia from Alexander, and it is a mix of both of these, and not clear. The sleepnessness and restlessness from emily, and the struggle from Anastasia both resonate very loudly.  The shadows in the dark, the faces, the burning, those are all very apparent as well.  I feel like I am stuck in some midway point, but the answer is surrender. The audible charism is frustrating, it never leaves me, all day I hear it. It is miserable without comfort, this state......

The challenge here is to learn to take comfort in the charisms, because if we resist them, then we only suffer.  So, yes it is surrender to the charisms, but more so, we take refuge in them.

I meditated last night again, as i do every night. The burning sensation came in waves, but it relinquished from time to time, and I was excited, but this caused regression in my session and did not further to the next stage. If right now I was to pack up and walk away, I know doubtlessly that I could navigate this. Why has it come to this choice? It has always been this choice.

Yes, in the beginning we become excited about the charisms, which drives them away.  Eventually we become so used to them that we can witness them without disturbance of the mind.

The body/mind believes the aura/spirit is an affliction. This happens because of the lack of equanimity. Basically at the transition from the 2nd to 3rd jhana your mind has been stilled and thus seperated allowing equanimity. Its partly why I am so confused. I have experienced this many many times, its clear to me, the transition is apparent and I recognize it.

Yes, and we will go round, and round, and round until we learn to take comfort in the charisms.

[Cal]

I feel as though im plagued by something. I meditate 2x per day for an hour or more. Sometimes i feel as though im pinned down, like im falling, theres burning, darkness everywhere. Faces appear, i see them but let them pass. There has been little joy or bliss in my sessions. Its like there is an external source in my mind. On the good sessions ill progress but ill always regress to the same thing. ill try and describe it. If one was to take a piece of chalk on a chalkboard and rapidly draw lines back and forth in random directions, this is like what happens in my mind. Some thoughts will be present, but they fall away and this happens.

I just want my refuge back.

[Alexander]

I experience the same thing, Cal. I will meditate to the depth of the 3rd jhana, but the bliss component will not be there. It is like there is an underlying root of problems. If from here I "let go," my mind wanders and I fall back into the 2nd jhana. If I fight with it and apply effort, the silent mind will remain, but the emotional state becomes unbearable.

Relevant John of the Cross quotes?

There is another reason why the soul has walked securely in this darkness, and this is because it has been suffering; for the road of suffering is more secure and even more profitable than that of fruition and action: first, because in suffering the strength of God is added to that of man, while in action and fruition the soul is practising its own weaknesses and imperfections; and second, because in suffering the soul continues to practise and acquire the virtues and become purer, wiser and more cautious.

Thus the soul which once stood without at the gates of the palace of God like Mardochai weeping in the streets of Susan because his life was threatened, clothed with sackcloth and refusing the garments which Esther sent him, unrewarded for his faithful service in defending the king's honour and life, finds, also, like Mardochai, all its trials and service rewarded in one day. It is not only admitted within the palace and stands in royal robes before the king, but has also a diadem on its head, and in its hand a sceptre, and sitting on the royal throne with the king's signet on its finger, symbols of its power in the kingdom of the Bridegroom.

[Cal]

I experience the same thing, Cal. I will meditate to the depth of the 3rd jhana, but the bliss component will not be there. It is like there is an underlying root of problems. If from here I "let go," my mind wanders and I fall back into the 2nd jhana. If I fight with it and apply effort, the silent mind will remain, but the emotional state becomes unbearable.

Relevant John of the Cross quotes?

There is another reason why the soul has walked securely in this darkness, and this is because it has been suffering; for the road of suffering is more secure and even more profitable than that of fruition and action: first, because in suffering the strength of God is added to that of man, while in action and fruition the soul is practising its own weaknesses and imperfections; and second, because in suffering the soul continues to practise and acquire the virtues and become purer, wiser and more cautious.

Thus the soul which once stood without at the gates of the palace of God like Mardochai weeping in the streets of Susan because his life was threatened, clothed with sackcloth and refusing the garments which Esther sent him, unrewarded for his faithful service in defending the king's honour and life, finds, also, like Mardochai, all its trials and service rewarded in one day. It is not only admitted within the palace and stands in royal robes before the king, but has also a diadem on its head, and in its hand a sceptre, and sitting on the royal throne with the king's signet on its finger, symbols of its power in the kingdom of the Bridegroom.

Thank you Alexander. It is heartening to know that other mystics have traversed this coarse, and that there is indeed a "light at the end of the tunnel". Endurance, volition, these are words that come to mind.

[Jhanananda]

I feel as though im plagued by something. I meditate 2x per day for an hour or more. Sometimes i feel as though im pinned down, like im falling, theres burning, darkness everywhere. Faces appear, i see them but let them pass. There has been little joy or bliss in my sessions. Its like there is an external source in my mind. On the good sessions ill progress but ill always regress to the same thing. ill try and describe it. If one was to take a piece of chalk on a chalkboard and rapidly draw lines back and forth in random directions, this is like what happens in my mind. Some thoughts will be present, but they fall away and this happens.

I just want my refuge back.

I am reminded of John of the Cross when he used the term 'aridity' in meditation.  Aridity has arisen for you.  It just takes discipline and perseverance for the moist bliss to return to you again.

[Cal]

Over the course of the past 2 years or so I ve had some fantastic and bizarre experiences. I've went from a socially oriented individual, to a deeply religious one. From an ignorant fool who thought he knew everything, to a humbled one who realized he knew nothing. I've let go many parts of my former self, yet there is more that remains to be unburdened. All of this started from a facebook post from a member of this forum. Something written there spoke to my inner being and man did my inner being speak to me. It told me to find out, to learn, so here I am. That was the night of my awakening.

Before going on my foolish charade that I could ignore the charisms, I had feelings at times that i wasnt alone. Like something hovering over my shoulder. These feeling would come to me via the audio charism. I would get a higher pitched noise along with the constant audio charism. No matter what "distraction" I was employing at the time, this particular tone would get hold of my attention, and I would observe. I often thought of this as a visitor. The feeling that came with them, over the body, they differed though. So in time, I thought of them as different visitors. I began to recognize them as "individuals". I am unsure if this is significant, however, the events continue even till this day. Now I bring this up due to the specific "feeling" that would accompany the higher pitched audio charism. This is what Im now using to differentiate from the other. In the static of my vision field, while absorbed, outside of conventional meditative states, accompanied by this feeling, I become aware that i can visually see what is there. Heres the thing though, I ignore it. I do not look as I do not wish to see, yet I still feel. I will narrow my visual field, look at the ground, but dammit I know theyre there. Now this is not all the time, and I'm not "afraid of the dark". I feel as though if I were to observe where I know they are, that I would cope with this through absorbing further. Yet these things do not "pique" my curiosity, I do not want them to be there. I may view them in meditative states, they may pin me down or hold my hand, but where may I "brake" in a waking state? It's funny, because I am not afraid, and yet I refuse to acknowledge them, I would prefer to move slower.

[Jhanananda]

Over the course of the past 2 years or so I ve had some fantastic and bizarre experiences. I've went from a socially oriented individual, to a deeply religious one. From an ignorant fool who thought he knew everything, to a humbled one who realized he knew nothing. I've let go many parts of my former self, yet there is more that remains to be unburdened. All of this started from a facebook post from a member of this forum. Something written there spoke to my inner being and man did my inner being speak to me. It told me to find out, to learn, so here I am. That was the night of my awakening.

In the course of life I rarely meet people who have as much attainment as most of the contributing members of this forum do.  Most of the people I meet are completely oblivious of the spiritual dimensions, have no belief, faith, interest, or experience with it.  I do meet a fair number of devout, who have no experience with the spiritual dimensions, but have a deep belief, and faith in it; however, they tend to be profoundly deluded and deeply afraid of the spiritual dimensions. 

The new-agers that I meet tend to believe that they have had some experience with the spiritual dimensions, and believe they have figured it all out, but in most cases their experiences are more often than not delusional, and their literature is often written with great authority, but is, nonetheless, in most cases fiction. 

After more than 40 years with the charisms I am still learning about the seemingly infinite aspects of the spiritual dimensions, so I may value the community of mystics on this forum more than anyone else here, because I learn a great deal from most of you, and I greatly appreciate the company of fellow mystics, like you all, because otherwise I feel profoundly alienated by the rest of the world, with whom I can only have very superficial conversations.

Before going on my foolish charade that I could ignore the charisms, I had feelings at times that i wasnt alone. Like something hovering over my shoulder. These feeling would come to me via the audio charism. I would get a higher pitched noise along with the constant audio charism. No matter what "distraction" I was employing at the time, this particular tone would get hold of my attention, and I would observe. I often thought of this as a visitor. The feeling that came with them, over the body, they differed though. So in time, I thought of them as different visitors. I began to recognize them as "individuals". I am unsure if this is significant, however, the events continue even till this day. Now I bring this up due to the specific "feeling" that would accompany the higher pitched audio charism. This is what Im now using to differentiate from the other. In the static of my vision field, while absorbed, outside of conventional meditative states, accompanied by this feeling, I become aware that i can visually see what is there. Heres the thing though, I ignore it. I do not look as I do not wish to see, yet I still feel. I will narrow my visual field, look at the ground, but dammit I know theyre there. Now this is not all the time, and I'm not "afraid of the dark". I feel as though if I were to observe where I know they are, that I would cope with this through absorbing further. Yet these things do not "pique" my curiosity, I do not want them to be there. I may view them in meditative states, they may pin me down or hold my hand, but where may I "brake" in a waking state? It's funny, because I am not afraid, and yet I refuse to acknowledge them, I would prefer to move slower.

When I developed depth in meditation, which was accompanied with the charisms 24-7 more than 40 years ago, I found that we are immersed in a sea of immaterial beings, some benevolent, and some evil.  At that time I found that they are all around us all of the time.  So, it is not surprising, Cal, that you are feeling, but not seeing, immaterial beings near you.  You will get used to it.

[Anon]

... I may value the community of mystics on this forum more than anyone else here, because I learn a great deal from most of you, and I greatly appreciate the company of fellow mystics, like you all, because otherwise I feel profoundly alienated by the rest of the world, with whom I can only have very superficial conversations with.

Excuse me for dropping in. I've wanted to ask you this question for a while: Isn't an enlightened person supposed to be beyond social needs?

[Cal]

... I may value the community of mystics on this forum more than anyone else here, because I learn a great deal from most of you, and I greatly appreciate the company of fellow mystics, like you all, because otherwise I feel profoundly alienated by the rest of the world, with whom I can only have very superficial conversations with.

Excuse me for dropping in. I've wanted to ask you this question for a while: Isn't an enlightened person supposed to be beyond social needs?

Much like the tides of the ocean, one Ebbs and Flows. From saturation to deep despair. This is also outlined in the Discourse of the Buddha, as well as highlighted in the Crucifixion of Jesus Christ. While one may be a spiritual master, they are also human. We have senior members like Sam, who are stoic and devoted, yet cheerful. He will tell stories at times of a cheerful social interaction. Jhananada who is almost completely without emotion in his words, to the man who reflects upon the emotion present. And yet there is deep compassion readily obvious in his action. Read their stories. You'll find that it has been a life long search for understanding. I recognize both as spiritual masters.

I cannot answer if an enlightened person is supposed to be beyond social needs. But i can tell you the Sangha of the Buddha was quite large, and Jesus had his apostles. I commend your use of critical thinking.

[Jhanananda]

Excuse me for dropping in. I've wanted to ask you this question for a while: Isn't an enlightened person supposed to be beyond social needs?

Do you mean someone who can solo camp in the wilderness for years and not get lonely?  Or, someone who can live in the world alienated for decades and not get lonely?

Welcome, Anon.  We value critical inquiry here, so you are in good company.

Thank-you, Cal.  I look forward to meditating deeply with you soon.