In search of understanding...

[Cal]

Sexual desire, lust even, has been one of the most uncomfortable topics for me to talk about. This is probably the case because it has been immensely present within me since as early as 6 years old. I had sex for the first time when I was 8 with a girl of the same age who lived in another apartment of the complex we lived in. It is truly an all consuming obsession, and it is hideous to view it. The un natural impulses that i have are only hinged by morality, but they are rampant in my mind, and I want to be free of them. This is what I cling to. The self-identity feels bare and exposed, perhaps this is good to see honest transparency. Perhaps it was better left un-shared.

What compels me to share this is its what I am viewing now. The brutal, disgusting and repulsive honesty of who I am. This is that doubled-edge sword. That while immersed in the divine, I am thankful, but undeserving. Meditation lifts the curtain of excuse, and throws these things right in one's face. They must be faced, and for some, these honest reflections into oneself, may be too much. I know they certainly feel too much for me right now. You'd think I had gotten used to this by now. After-all, it is me who I am looking at.

[follinge@gmail.com]

I can see why you want to be free of strong sexual desire. It takes up a lot of time, can get you into trouble, and gives you nothing back long term.

However, I don't think it's unnatural to want to reproduce nor do I think it's bad to talk about.

I have found that my desire has slowed a bit after 40 years old.

I'm sure Jeffrey and the other have deeper insight. I don't have any big answers.

I do know that it used to interfere with my meditation schedule especially during the year when I tried to meditate a few times a day when I didn't have a job.

Other than satisfying the desires, I see no other way with dealing with it. Meditations on death or the how disgusting the human body is did nothing for me. They did not work.

Ultimately, I don't fight it mentally, anymore. Nor do I feel bad about it.

But like I said, it has simmered down quite a bit with age, and I expect this to continue.

But I don't think you have a unique problem nor are you bad in anyway for your feelings.

[Cal]

However, I don't think it's unnatural to want to reproduce nor do I think it's bad to talk about.

Well, thank you for your response Follinge, it is appreciated. These desires that I speak of are not innocent. They are not just inherent programming. Although I could see how it could be defined as that. They are much more than that, at least within me. They are a desire for dominance and gratification. They are an object for malice. I used to see this "excitement" as innocent, but when I view them up close, they are truly repulsive. I hinge them with morality, but it does not stop them from being present. This may not be true of all men as I am struggling to see another perspective in this regard. That these desires could be of a different nature, far removed from what I experience. But, at least within me, its much more than "wanting to reproduce".

Meditations on death or the how disgusting the human body is did nothing for me. They did not work.

Perhaps we might take some time to explore this perspective, Follinge. It is not that one meditates on death but rather the realization that meditation emulates death. Understanding the Four Noble Truths helps us in this regard;

The Truth that life is suffering, Dhukka.

The Truth of the Origin of Dukkha; that The 5 Aggregates bind us in rebirth. (I should probably just say Fetters here, but I understand it in this fashion)

The Truth that there is an end to Dhukka.

And that the Noble Eightfold Path and the culmination of the Eighth-fold, is the path to liberation.

Now to put this succinctly; The body IS life. Life is suffering. There is more out there Folinge, much more than this meat husk of a shell that we are bound to.

I might add that for the true religious experience, these truths must resonate within us. That they must be fully understood, as they are the basis of the Noble Eightfold Path.

Ultimately, I don't fight it mentally, anymore. Nor do I feel bad about it.

I agree with you here. I believe firmly being aware of such things as they arise to be enough, so long as they are contemplated, understood, and taken to meditation. To be frank; they're just absolutely ugly.

I might add further more that the sexual energy I have noticed it to play a remarkable role in furthering meditative depth. I have also noticed that expelling it in mundane physical gratification to be ridiculous in comparison. /Sigh, yet it has not stopped me from pursuing it. It presents itself as a ridiculous game of cat and mouse where I might question my own stupidity, if I am being honest. The question becomes, why would I immerse myself in an activity that produces a true emotion of dominance and gratification when in doing so gives away an amazing energy that could propel the most profound experience. So here in lies my mental fight; cause Im an idiot.

[Jhanananda]

This is a very good topic to arise.  The fact is we are spirit in an animal's body.  For any animal to be a successful member of its species, it must fulfill its basic biological necessities, which are for humans: acquire subsistence, reproduce, and defend its subsistence, its mate, and its off-spring.  So, much of human behavior, which Cal referred to, is normal and natural, as follinge pointed out.

However, when we begin to meditate deeply, we begin to identify with the spirit, and withdraw from the beast.  In the process we begin to see the beast as vulgar, and disgusting. 

I recall in the late 90s when I had uncovered greater depths in meditation, I found tremendous disgust for my body, its cravings, and even its sounds and smells.  I recall coming back to the body from an OOBE, and being overwhelmed by the stench and filth of the beast that I reside within for this lifetime.  And, every time the beast spoke I was annoyed by the retched sound it made.  Now, I am not bothered by anything this beast does, or emits.

So, Cal, you are making great progress.  Keep it up.

[follinge@gmail.com]

Jeffrey, your response reminds me of when you wrote about other meditations which you said were backwards such as loving-kindness, I believe.

You mentioned that when we reach jhanas, we realize what those meditations are trying to produce so it's best just to move straight to jhana.

Similarly, there are Buddhist meditations on disgust for the human body, but it seems like you all ready got there via jhana.

Let me know if I'm wrong on any of this. I find these discussion to be motivating for me to actually go and meditate. Thanks. Also thanks to Cal for sharing insights on desire.

I see the dangers of desire, but I did not see it in itself as bad until now.

[Cal]

Jeffrey, your response reminds me of when you wrote about other meditations which you said were backwards such as loving-kindness, I believe.

You mentioned that when we reach jhanas, we realize what those meditations are trying to produce so it's best just to move straight to jhana.

Similarly, there are Buddhist meditations on disgust for the human body, but it seems like you all ready got there via jhana.

Let me know if I'm wrong on any of this. I find these discussion to be motivating for me to actually go and meditate. Thanks. Also thanks to Cal for sharing insights on desire.

I see the dangers of desire, but I did not see it in itself as bad until now.

Follinge, you're in the right hands with Jefferey. Unlike these other meditation teachers, he has actually walked the path in which he teaches. This is all a progression. There is a start and a finish. The journey itself is immense and has many different stages.

Desires themselves, as he pointed out, are normal and natural. We all experience them. They're not bad. They must only be traversed at some point along the journey.

I do apologize, I rant and rant and a lot of times I miss things. It becomes so hard to convey in words these experiences. I think this is where it becomes important to take our time with each step, that there is no rush, and that each journey is made within ourselves.

[Jhanananda]

Correct, follinge.  Thank-you, Cal.  I am only to happy to have helped a few people toward nibanna before this body dies.

[follinge@gmail.com]

Cal, I don't consider your posts to be rants. They are very honest and informative, and if I didn't get anything out of them, I would choose not to read them.

You have landed on something that I had been dealing with as well: strong desire. What to do with it? Why is it so annoying? What a distraction!

On the other hand, it seems like there are skillful ways to deal with this as well which is great. I liked how meditation lead to what I thought would work with the body meditation which I used to try: "hair of head, hair of body, nails, skin, teeth."

Yes, I agree that we have a good teacher; I'm looking forward to sitting with you.

[Cal]

Cal, I don't consider your posts to be rants. They are very honest and informative, and if I didn't get anything out of them, I would choose not to read them.

You have landed on something that I had been dealing with as well: strong desire. What to do with it? Why is it so annoying? What a distraction!

On the other hand, it seems like there are skillful ways to deal with this as well which is great. I liked how meditation lead to what I thought would work with the body meditation which I used to try: "hair of head, hair of body, nails, skin, teeth."

Yes, I agree that we have a good teacher; I'm looking forward to sitting with you.

Your post reminds me of something. I've noticed that during meditation, my lips are closed, but my mouth is open. When I finish the session Ill chomp back down and man do my teeth feel foreign, like they have been pulled up and need to be pushed back into place or something.

Perhaps it is my self-view. That I might see it as ranting due to rising insecurity towards personal experience being shared. I have noticed it to be present. Thank you for your encouragement.

Desires at their prevalence, with me, are voracious and rampant. Perhaps it is in the contrast of nothingness that they arise as vulgar, unwanted and invasive. I truly only get this way when I meditate consecutively and become wholesomely saturated. Otherwise, the desire appears as it normally would, although I will be partially removed from it, and can observe it, it is a natural impulse. But, I am not fully enlightened. Perhaps there will be a time when I can be fully removed from them all-together.

I've spent the better part of a year searching for others. I'm always fumbling around, reading something of religious nature, and looking for others that experience what I do. Jeff and the GWV, all they've done, it's unheard of elsewhere. There are countless accounts of individuals who experience terrifying, beautiful and ecstatic things at meditation retreat. And for each one of those accounts, there is a scumbag on the other end attempting to exploit, or bury that person for those experiences. To think about all of them who sought out some sort of treatment for an "illness" produced of natural phenomena is truly heart-wrenching when I know they just do not have guidance.  They don't have guidance because these "teachers" don't know their head from their ass. Ya know, I've spent time reading on what some of them will say, their interpretations of the Suttas, quite frankly, sometimes I laugh. So many have it so wrong. I know this because each and every last word in the Sutta can be felt in and of itself. All of it. The Buddha was a truly amazing individual, and those that were near him, in his time, were some of the luckiest men to walk this earth. Just as we are lucky to have Jeff.

This is another reason why a GWV retreat center is so important. There are so many lost people out there. So many that are driven to false beliefs due to fabricated social expectancy. Every bit of it fabricated. There is no freedom within boundaries. From the moment someone is born there is a "place" thrust upon them within the bounds of man. Some might argue that navigating within those boundaries is "freedom". I suppose that will have to come down to the individual, and what they believe, or what one is willing to accept. But for those who stumble upon Freedom; they have no place. We see it everywhere, if we choose to see.  Freedom is marginalized, Freedom becomes a threat to government and assimilation, Freedom does not further the interests of the man on High Mountain, Freedom does not discriminate (god forbid a place of equality)...Freedom is permanent.

Imagine the people sitting alone right now, crying, afraid, feeling dejected, alienated, and "different" because there is something inside of them that tells them "This world just isnt right, something is wrong with it".  These same people might spend the majority of their lives wondering why people are the way they are. These same people are the ones who turn to a false teacher. These same people are the ones I speak of.

[bodhimind]

Something struck a chord with me Cal, because I was exactly like that too.

When I first got into "buddhism", the way things were being explained did not really align with what I experienced within as a child. All those explanations seemed to be leading something, but then I realized it wasn't adding to the way I could relate to it - but it was all mental formations - more and more of it. I had to deconstruct a lot of what I had learnt and go back to the basics. Also, the cult mentality, the group-think, the fact that people don't realize they are clinging onto a group identity, dogma, doctrines, fantasies and myths, rites and routines - all leading to defensiveness against accuracy and truth...

I guess a retreat center would be so much more possible if not for the fact, as Jhanananda frequently points out, that the mystics are frequently marginalized by the masses.

[Jhanananda]

Your post reminds me of something. I've noticed that during meditation, my lips are closed, but my mouth is open. When I finish the session Ill chomp back down and man do my teeth feel foreign, like they have been pulled up and need to be pushed back into place or something.

This is how I too have meditated for decades.  Sometimes a kriya happens in the jaw causing the teeth to bite the tongue, so I have to be careful not to allow the tongue to relax in the way of the teeth.

Desires at their prevalence, with me, are voracious and rampant.

This can be in part due to higher level of self-awareness as you develop deep meditation practice.

I've spent the better part of a year searching for others. I'm always fumbling around, reading something of religious nature, and looking for others that experience what I do. Jeff and the GWV, all they've done, it's unheard of elsewhere. There are countless accounts of individuals who experience terrifying, beautiful and ecstatic things at meditation retreat. And for each one of those accounts, there is a scumbag on the other end attempting to exploit, or bury that person for those experiences. To think about all of them who sought out some sort of treatment for an "illness" produced of natural phenomena is truly heart-wrenching when I know they just do not have guidance.  They don't have guidance because these "teachers" don't know their head from their ass. Ya know, I've spent time reading on what some of them will say, their interpretations of the Suttas, quite frankly, sometimes I laugh. So many have it so wrong. I know this because each and every last word in the Sutta can be felt in and of itself. All of it. The Buddha was a truly amazing individual, and those that were near him, in his time, were some of the luckiest men to walk this earth. Just as we are lucky to have Jeff.

This is another reason why a GWV retreat center is so important.

Thank-you, Cal.

There are so many lost people out there. So many that are driven to false beliefs due to fabricated social expectancy. Every bit of it fabricated. There is no freedom within boundaries. From the moment someone is born there is a "place" thrust upon them within the bounds of man. Some might argue that navigating within those boundaries is "freedom". I suppose that will have to come down to the individual, and what they believe, or what one is willing to accept. But for those who stumble upon Freedom; they have no place. We see it everywhere, if we choose to see.  Freedom is marginalized, Freedom becomes a threat to government and assimilation, Freedom does not further the interests of the man on High Mountain, Freedom does not discriminate (god forbid a place of equality)...Freedom is permanent.

Imagine the people sitting alone right now, crying, afraid, feeling dejected, alienated, and "different" because there is something inside of them that tells them "This world just isnt right, something is wrong with it".  These same people might spend the majority of their lives wondering why people are the way they are. These same people are the ones who turn to a false teacher. These same people are the ones I speak of.

This is what keeps me moving forward, to help just one more person, like: yourself, bodhimind, Michel, Michael, and the rest on this forum; out of the collective delusion.

[Cal]

Something struck a chord with me Cal, because I was exactly like that too.

When I first got into "buddhism", the way things were being explained did not really align with what I experienced within as a child. All those explanations seemed to be leading something, but then I realized it wasn't adding to the way I could relate to it - but it was all mental formations - more and more of it. I had to deconstruct a lot of what I had learnt and go back to the basics. Also, the cult mentality, the group-think, the fact that people don't realize they are clinging onto a group identity, dogma, doctrines, fantasies and myths, rites and routines - all leading to defensiveness against accuracy and truth...

I guess a retreat center would be so much more possible if not for the fact, as Jhanananda frequently points out, that the mystics are frequently marginalized by the masses.

I know exactly what youre speaking of here Bohdimind, it's that "pull". That itch in the back of the mind. I believe that everyone is capable of feeling this pull, most admittedly will not see past the construct, but theyre capable. I give thought to how these other places were formed. How so many beliefs can be pursued on misunderstood premise and false teachers. That alone provides some hope that a genuine place is possible. I think most just dont want to think for themselves, that its easier for them to just continue along the path that has been constructed for them.  Perhaps it is lack of incentive. Perhaps it is easier to believe that, for a christian, simply asking Jesus into ones heart is enough for liberation, nothing more, nothing less (Except that there is an entire slew of things that must come to culmination before it can be true). They do not question it because it is a MASSIVE delusion. But it's not completely without hope.

You talked some about it in your last post. The aura that surrounds us. In my experience, it is portrayed well in Inception; where the dreamers subconscious would attack what is foreign, and the Matrix; how Agents could take control of anyone near those who were not "plugged-in". That those around us do feel it, and they react to it. Most, in my experience, react negatively to it. I believe alot of this is due to a purity. If I can recognize many faults within myself, then it is likely that I am simply projecting them upon others, much more than a "plugged-in" individual would because of the intimate experience that I share with the charisms. I think that if I can unravel this identity completely, that there might be a different reaction to being in proximity, as there would be nothing left to attack. Yet at the same time I am aware this is only my own delusion; but it wont stop me from trying.

[Cal]

So, Im gonna go completely off the deep end here guys and share a few things that I've noticed throughout this course. I'm going to share it because I believe it is at least the start of an answer to helping others. But first, I'm gonna point out the consequence, cause it's not very pleasant.

I've noticed that at every attempt I've made at communicating to others through the divine, has resulted in a horde of shitbag fuckers dog-piling me with laughably funny images. When I really put myself, my true self, into something; they attack. I had one experience where I put myself into to communicating to somebody who was lost, somebody here on this forum actually. I tried to teach them, really tried, like the amount of effort I put into those words was immense. I dont mean thought wise either. That night resulted in probably the single most frustrating experience with these fuckers. As a matter of fact, I received help from a spiritual being in removing it.

There have been others, many others, these fuckers are relentless. It also seems as though I can provoke them lol. I opened my throat chakra last night and "thought" to them after they were trying to scare me for better than an hour. I thought, "You fuckers are funny!" "Wow, that was creative!" "Who taught you that one, you should use it again!". Hehe, I pissed it off, and it got in my face, I even opened my eyes and I could see it. They smell like piss and feel like fire. I absorbed further, unafraid, and stopped interacting with it and it went away. I almost felt bad; I wanted it to come with me.

Why does this happen is the question that comes up. I am starting to believe that actually putting myself into something does create a "product", that it might work. I have no way of actually proving this, not without somebody else telling me that they "felt something" after reading it, or after our encounter. I think it is in the negative that it might be proved, that these experiences can literally intensify after being true to someone else. So im starting to believe that just as these fuckers have an influence; so can we.

Any guidance in this matter would be very helpful; but im not afraid of the world or angry little asshats.

[Jhanananda]

The winter before I left Tucson, I had a conversation with someone there whom I have known for a few decades.  He claimed OOBEs were just mental projection. 

I of course said "OOBEs are more real than this waking reality, and I can take you there."

He said, "OK, do it."

That night, while in an OOBE I traveled to him, but the closer I got to him the more legions of demons that obstructed my path.  I gave up on trying and traveled elsewhere.

The moral of both of our stories is most people abound with demons, and are deeply afraid of having a genuine religious experience, so they put up obstacles to any aide that comes there way.  it is these legions of demons, so there is no point in helping such a person.

[Cal]

The winter before I left Tucson, I had a conversation with someone there whom I have known for a few decades.  He claimed OOBEs were just mental projection.  I of course said rel OOBEs are more real than this waking reality, and I can take you there. 

He said, "OK, do it."

That night, while in an OOBE I traveled to him, but the closer I got to him the more legions of demons that obstructed my path.  I gave up on trying and traveled elsewhere.

The moral of both of our stories is most people abound with demons, and are deeply afraid of having a genuine religious experience, so they put up obstacles to any aide that comes there way.  it is these legions of demons, so there is no point in helping such a person.

I am beginning to understand that taking actions in this regard comes with a burden. Possibly that of taking on anothers burden all-together. But, I also distinctly remember body slamming that minotaur fucker several times; I havent seen him in awhile  . 

You bring up a good point though; that helping oneself must come first. If theyre not willing to help themselves, helping them becomes a wasted effort. They have to want to be free. I've heard Sam say similar things as well. Thank you for this, it prompts much thought.

It also reminds me of last nights sit. It was the same thing, many of them appear in their ghoulish fashion. There was this one though, a little goblin thing; I seen him clear as day. He tried to be scary, I'll give him that, but when he appeared he like punched at me, holding his little bottle, or whatever it was. Cute as shit, lil pointed green ears, jagged teeth, glowing red eyes. I'd squeeze him till he popped hahaha. But, it left me thinking that theres always another to take its place, so even when theyre are at a distance, its probably best to only attend to the light, unless they choose otherwise.

But still, I cant help but thinking how funny it might be to become a spiritual bowling ball. After-all, theyre quite relentless in their efforts