Author Topic: Discerning Attainment  (Read 30371 times)

Jhanananda

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Re: Discerning Attainment
« Reply #45 on: August 30, 2015, 02:28:30 AM »
Those blissful sensations are spreading weakly and sometimes strongly throughout the body. I feel like a rocket about to break the gravitational pull of the Earth - but I never do. I'm right on the cusp I feel.

Good to hear this, Michel.  I was sure they would come soon.
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Michel

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Re: Discerning Attainment
« Reply #46 on: August 30, 2015, 11:25:44 PM »
Moved the exchange between  Cal and myself on meditation to: http://fruitofthecontemplativelife.org/forum/index.php/topic,560.msg6672.html#msg6672
« Last Edit: August 30, 2015, 11:27:32 PM by Michel »

Michel

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Re: Discerning Attainment
« Reply #47 on: September 01, 2015, 10:49:36 PM »
Those blissful sensations are spreading weakly and sometimes strongly throughout the body. I feel like a rocket about to break the gravitational pull of the Earth - but I never do. I'm right on the cusp I feel.

Good to hear this, Michel.  I was sure they would come soon.
Thank-you, Jhananda.

Cal

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Re: Discerning Attainment
« Reply #48 on: September 18, 2015, 11:30:07 PM »
5 Lower Fetters

1) Narcissism - extreme selfishness, with a grandiose view of one's own talents and a craving for admiration, as characterizing a personality type.

It is there. My selfishness to do what I want to do, and my inconsiderate-ness to my family and their needs. I am aware of it, I also see it arise. Im conflicted on this issue because the selfishness is to pursue what I find "valuable", and is most always in direct conflict of what my family finds "valuable". There is a silent craving for admiration, which I also see arise. I do not "feed" it, however. I call attention to it and attempt to remedy the action. Although I have an impulsive nature at times and it is reactive as opposed to proactive. Narcissism exists within me, yet it could not be called a defining quality.

2) Skeptical doubt - Denying or questioning the tenets of a religion. regarding the doctrines or opinions of philosophical Skeptics.

Way beyond the possibility of any kind of doubt. I dont believe there is anything that could happen from this point forward that could ever instill even a sliver of doubt of a higher power. However, I do not think there is ever a moment when reading something religious related that I do not hold a skeptical doubt of the writing. I tend to try to place myself in the shoes of the writer, I want to know what they were feeling when they wrote it, so i take a more critical approach to literature.

3) Clinging to rules, rights and rituals - This is pretty straight-forward. I think a good example is someone saying "You can't do that; it's illegal."

I dont cling to them, however, I do try to upkeep an ethical lifestyle. I think it would be better put that I recognize and understand them and willingly adhere to those that make practical sense. I enjoy my solitude though, and in solitude there are no rules, rights, or rituals to adhere to. My only desire in this regard is to be without conflict, so long as what is required does not directly impact my own pursuits.

4) Desire for sensuality - Sensual means physically pleasing. It often is used in a sexual context, but is not exclusively sexual in meaning.

I attempt to respond to this without an excuse, however, my internal dialouge is filled with "thats only because", that must mean that I do still have a desire for sensuality. I am a pleasure seeker. Mostly i seek it as a distraction. I do not pursue women, or relationship, or companionship. I do seek distraction in the moment. Some habitual, "this is what I do here". This is not limited to sexual. If i go upstairs, I go to the fridge, see whats there, im not actually hungry.

5) Ill-will or aversion - Animosity or bitterness. A strong dislike or disinclination.
Aversion to people, ill-will in brief instances. Mostly, its like the others, the thoughts and feelings arise, yet I am less impulsive in this regard. Most always I recognize the thought or feeling arising and i check it, disagree with it, or question it.

5 Higher Fetters

1) Craving for Material Existence - Craving to be a human or animal, for example. (?)

I do not want material existence.

2) Craving for Immaterial Existence - Craving to be an angel/deva (?)

I do not want immaterial existence.

3) Conceit - Excessive pride in oneself. A fanciful expression in writing or speech; an elaborate metaphor.

I constantly have thoughts that I can do something better than someone else. It fuels me at times. Yet again, it is something that I re-actively check. Sometimes this takes some time.

4) Restlessness - Characterized by or showing inability to remain at rest: a restless mood. Unquiet or uneasy, as a person, the mind, or the heart.

Hit and miss. At best I am completely rested and content in the moment. There are other times, mostly as of late, that everything is restless. Sleep, meditation, life.

5) Ignorance - Ignorance is a state of being uninformed (lack of knowledge).[1] The word ignorant is an adjective describing a person in the state of being unaware and is often used as an insult to describe individuals who deliberately ignore or disregard important information or facts.

Utterly. I would like to think it is brief and secluded to the moment as reflection relieves the ignorance, mostly followed by guilt of an action.

Eleven Fruits

1) Equanimity - mental calmness, composure, and evenness of temper, especially in a difficult situation

Hit and miss as of late, however there have been times of great equanimity. It all depends on my attention in the moment, if I am self-aware then a sufficing level of equanimity is accompanied. However, there are times when I am restless and uncomfortable that equanimity is something that I grasp at.

2) Fearlessness - lacking fear

I dont care enough about anything anymore to be afraid. I am at the point of surrender, broken, anything could happen and I wouldnt care.

3) Beyond Pain and Discomfort

Not even close, everything is pain and discomfort.

4) Meditative Absorption

Yes.

5) Manomaya lit. "mind-made body" (OOB) - "wields manifold supranormal powers"

2 experiences that I can remember, both i can only remember leaving and returning.

6) Clairaudience "divine ear-element"

Every waking hour, loud.

7) Mental Telepathy - knows the awareness of other beings

Words and feelings. Any feeling from another person who I am in close proximity to i feel it in myself, like absorbing their feeling into myself. This is accompanied by some thoughts, mostly just a passing word. Intensity can vary. This is a very taxing quality, as it drains me both emotionally and physically.

8 ) Recollection of Manifold Past Lives - lit. “rethinking” or "dependent origination"

Yes.  Some of them.

9) Clairvoyance - "Divine eye" or "sees beings passing away & re-appearing." The faculty of perceiving things or events in the future or beyond normal sensory contact.

I have had some experiences with this, although it is not a developed faculty.

10) Ending of Mental Agitation

Hit and miss.

11) Direct Knowledge/Transcendent Insight(?) - lit “knowledge" (nana) and "vision" (dassana)

No.

Verdict?

Verdict is this place is Hell.

Jhanananda

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Re: Discerning Attainment
« Reply #49 on: September 19, 2015, 02:11:21 AM »
Very interesting response, Cal.  A good example of self awareness, which takes honesty.
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jay.validus

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Re: Discerning Attainment
« Reply #50 on: September 19, 2015, 02:36:13 AM »
Quote
Verdict is this place is Hell.
Hey Cal,
I am sorry to hear you are not feeling well, although in your daily life I am sure you are otherwise content.  I am certain we are in hell too, but it could be worse.  I am grateful I am in a safe place in the world, around otherwise good people, with a roof over my head, food on the table, and more or less warm at night. 
I find when I count my blessings, and keep that feeling, then I can relax and let go.  Surrender.   Life can be fun, and you don't need to generate suffering do it.  Who is saying you can't?  Why limit yourself?

PeacefulDodo

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Re: Discerning Attainment
« Reply #51 on: September 19, 2015, 10:15:27 PM »
Cal, i found what you wrote very interesting, an honest and clearly investigated account of where you are at.  I understand how you feel about this place being hell, sometimes i feel that as well, but it mostly seems to be generated from humans where as being out in the countryside walking the dog, and looking at things like spiders in the hedgerow weaving webs, dragonfly's buzzing around, that is beauty.

I think despite the horrors that take place in this world, again mostly by humans or as a result of human action or inaction, there is great beauty as well, stunning works of some greater force operating within the moment.  I find spending time in nature and with good hearted and open minded people can really help, it's a shame the hellish stuff happens as alot of it doesn't have to happen, it's just that humans are too bogged down in unwholesome mind states to realise what they are doing. 

I do think it's about perspective as well, how you view the world.  I do believe this life to be a gift, being in this form, a part of the greater whole which is aware of it's self, seems like an anomaly, a rarity.  Because of this i want to commit fully to finding truth, in whatever form that may be, it seems that deep meditation and moment to moment awareness is the tool which offers the greatest chance of truth being found as per history, well that or drugs of some kind im not sure about how permanent that is though. 

I hope you find some inner peace soon, despite being mostly happy and in love with life when i have been down in the past i find it's almost always because i dont have enough compassion for my self, for others or im bogged down in unwholesome states of mind.  I do think that this disgust at the state of things is a natural part of the spiritual process, the dark night.  A thought that popped into my mind the other night whilst meditating was "the ultimate form of control is surrender".
« Last Edit: September 19, 2015, 10:17:08 PM by PeacefulDodo »

Cal

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Re: Discerning Attainment
« Reply #52 on: September 20, 2015, 01:33:44 AM »
Quote
Verdict is this place is Hell.
Hey Cal,
I am sorry to hear you are not feeling well, although in your daily life I am sure you are otherwise content.  I am certain we are in hell too, but it could be worse.  I am grateful I am in a safe place in the world, around otherwise good people, with a roof over my head, food on the table, and more or less warm at night. 
I find when I count my blessings, and keep that feeling, then I can relax and let go.  Surrender.   Life can be fun, and you don't need to generate suffering do it.  Who is saying you can't?  Why limit yourself?

My daily life is quite content, yes. I do have all that I need to physically survive, and I should be more grateful for them. what I wrote above is a reflection. I feel as though in order to efface the identity I must be brutally honest with it. I must point my own flaws out whenever they show themselves, otherwise ill never be rid of them. I feel as though even if it is something that I have brought some subconcious attention to, it can be remedied in a meditation session. It is quite grim, and not at all a fun place to be in.  However, fun is not something I have considered for a long time. Since even before finding the charisms life has always been about a distraction. Ill admit that there were some laughs, but never anything that i could look back on and say that was a "fun time". Perhaps it is my perspective on things. Fun was always fleeting, it would arise and then fall away almost as quickly as it arose. Impermanent. But while on the subject, cliff jumping and skydiving were definitely the most exillerating experiences in my life. My younger years I chased adrenaline for distraction. But it always came back to this place, one of self-reflection and dis-contentment. I have not been able to find a purpose to this life, and I've searched about as high and low as one could. So, as far as limiting myself, I believe it more a product of life itself and my own perspective on things. So while I do believe that I am generating suffering, I also feel it is most necessary. Thank you for your kind words and concerns though, and I do enjoy reading your experiences here.
« Last Edit: September 20, 2015, 01:45:34 AM by Cal »

jay.validus

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Re: Discerning Attainment
« Reply #53 on: September 20, 2015, 01:51:52 PM »
Quote
My daily life is quite content, yes. I do have all that I need to physically survive, and I should be more grateful for them. what I wrote above is a reflection. I feel as though in order to efface the identity I must be brutally honest with it. I must point my own flaws out whenever they show themselves, otherwise ill never be rid of them. I feel as though even if it is something that I have brought some subconcious attention to, it can be remedied in a meditation session. It is quite grim, and not at all a fun place to be in.  However, fun is not something I have considered for a long time. Since even before finding the charisms life has always been about a distraction. Ill admit that there were some laughs, but never anything that i could look back on and say that was a "fun time". Perhaps it is my perspective on things. Fun was always fleeting, it would arise and then fall away almost as quickly as it arose. Impermanent. But while on the subject, cliff jumping and skydiving were definitely the most exhilarating experiences in my life. My younger years I chased adrenaline for distraction. But it always came back to this place, one of self-reflection and dis-contentment. I have not been able to find a purpose to this life, and I've searched about as high and low as one could. So, as far as limiting myself, I believe it more a product of life itself and my own perspective on things. So while I do believe that I am generating suffering, I also feel it is most necessary. Thank you for your kind words and concerns though, and I do enjoy reading your experiences here.

Oh that is so interesting how you view fun!  Yesterday at work I was teaching a new co-worker of mine how to use the till, and it got super busy and she made some mistakes.  She was so nervous!  Afterwards, I was hyper and said to her, "Wasn't all that fear so much fun?  I am just pumped, just inject the heroin into my veins! RAWR!"

I don't necessarily view fun as something that has to have a good feeling.  After I had my first lucid experience with the black while sleeping, I woke up in a crypto-psychotic state.  It shook off after a few hours and I joked to myself, "Well that was a laugh and a half, a couple toots.  Let's do it again!"  I have gone through such depths of unpleasant emotion, nothing can change who I am.  Fun can be anything how I define it.  It is letting go and being right there in the moment.  I mean, isn't that why we are here?  Isn't that part of enlightenment? 

Cal

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Re: Discerning Attainment
« Reply #54 on: September 20, 2015, 09:20:02 PM »
Quote
My daily life is quite content, yes. I do have all that I need to physically survive, and I should be more grateful for them. what I wrote above is a reflection. I feel as though in order to efface the identity I must be brutally honest with it. I must point my own flaws out whenever they show themselves, otherwise ill never be rid of them. I feel as though even if it is something that I have brought some subconcious attention to, it can be remedied in a meditation session. It is quite grim, and not at all a fun place to be in.  However, fun is not something I have considered for a long time. Since even before finding the charisms life has always been about a distraction. Ill admit that there were some laughs, but never anything that i could look back on and say that was a "fun time". Perhaps it is my perspective on things. Fun was always fleeting, it would arise and then fall away almost as quickly as it arose. Impermanent. But while on the subject, cliff jumping and skydiving were definitely the most exhilarating experiences in my life. My younger years I chased adrenaline for distraction. But it always came back to this place, one of self-reflection and dis-contentment. I have not been able to find a purpose to this life, and I've searched about as high and low as one could. So, as far as limiting myself, I believe it more a product of life itself and my own perspective on things. So while I do believe that I am generating suffering, I also feel it is most necessary. Thank you for your kind words and concerns though, and I do enjoy reading your experiences here.

Oh that is so interesting how you view fun!  Yesterday at work I was teaching a new co-worker of mine how to use the till, and it got super busy and she made some mistakes.  She was so nervous!  Afterwards, I was hyper and said to her, "Wasn't all that fear so much fun?  I am just pumped, just inject the heroin into my veins! RAWR!"

I don't necessarily view fun as something that has to have a good feeling.  After I had my first lucid experience with the black while sleeping, I woke up in a crypto-psychotic state.  It shook off after a few hours and I joked to myself, "Well that was a laugh and a half, a couple toots.  Let's do it again!"  I have gone through such depths of unpleasant emotion, nothing can change who I am.  Fun can be anything how I define it.  It is letting go and being right there in the moment.  I mean, isn't that why we are here?  Isn't that part of enlightenment?

I agree, we are here to live in the moment and is most certainly the path to enlightenment, as the Buddha tells it. Taking what is positive from a negative situation is an understandable coarse. What I hope to accomplish is to remove the perception of any events so that there cannot be a positive, or a negative to any given case. That there will be only a contentment in the moment, neutral in all senses. From my understanding, being self aware in the moment is key to this. Watching a feeling arise and then fall without grasping it, or acting or reacting to it is the path to the removal of that feeling, along with meditation. Imagine a world in which nothing can effect you, negative or positive. That everything passes you by, the needs for interactions fall away. The identity has been removed and youre no longer forced to walk a path of suffering. Lets be honest, most everything in this life leads to some sort of suffering. Imagine being only an observer and there is no longer a reason to retreat or fight, as youre completely uneffected.

Cal

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Re: Discerning Attainment
« Reply #55 on: September 20, 2015, 09:59:42 PM »
Cal, i found what you wrote very interesting, an honest and clearly investigated account of where you are at.  I understand how you feel about this place being hell, sometimes i feel that as well, but it mostly seems to be generated from humans where as being out in the countryside walking the dog, and looking at things like spiders in the hedgerow weaving webs, dragonfly's buzzing around, that is beauty.

I think despite the horrors that take place in this world, again mostly by humans or as a result of human action or inaction, there is great beauty as well, stunning works of some greater force operating within the moment.  I find spending time in nature and with good hearted and open minded people can really help, it's a shame the hellish stuff happens as alot of it doesn't have to happen, it's just that humans are too bogged down in unwholesome mind states to realise what they are doing. 

I do think it's about perspective as well, how you view the world.  I do believe this life to be a gift, being in this form, a part of the greater whole which is aware of it's self, seems like an anomaly, a rarity.  Because of this i want to commit fully to finding truth, in whatever form that may be, it seems that deep meditation and moment to moment awareness is the tool which offers the greatest chance of truth being found as per history, well that or drugs of some kind im not sure about how permanent that is though. 

I hope you find some inner peace soon, despite being mostly happy and in love with life when i have been down in the past i find it's almost always because i dont have enough compassion for my self, for others or im bogged down in unwholesome states of mind.  I do think that this disgust at the state of things is a natural part of the spiritual process, the dark night.  A thought that popped into my mind the other night whilst meditating was "the ultimate form of control is surrender".

Thank you PeacefulDodo for your reply. I'd like to note that the above comments "This life is hell." and "Everything is pain and discomfort." are not a consistent thought process, rather, they were thought very broadly. I do not think on the pain and discomfort that I have, rather it is something I am aware of being present, if that makes sense.

I agree with you on so many points. The world and the people around us are most certainly ignorant to their own plights. They are bogged down by unwholesome mind states. Also, in that the ultimate form of control is surrender. Yet, compassion for oneself is not something I could agree on. My reasoning for this is sympathy for oneself would lead to an excuse, or a "hiding place" within the identity (Ive made this mistake). Compassion for others...this is not something I have thought on lately. I have notice that my "heart chakra" has been almost unnoticable lately. I am unsure if this is something that i should focus on at this point.

At this stage in my journey I am certain that it my resolve and endurance that is being tested, so I strive on trying to be as self-aware as I can be.  :)
« Last Edit: September 20, 2015, 10:04:06 PM by Cal »

Cal

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Re: Discerning Attainment
« Reply #56 on: January 30, 2016, 12:41:32 AM »
I had a very interesting discussion with another contemplative last night about paths to enlightenment. It was his belief that there would come a time when one would just know when they are enlightened, and that work has been done. While I agree with this, I also disagree. "A tree is known by its fruit". This is something I have reminded myself of, and has often left me humbled; there is much more that I still need to learn.

In reading the writings of the mystic I have seen "stages". That specific hardships could serve as a milestone along the path. An example of this would be meditative absorption. I would first expect someone to be able to recount a Kundalini awakening experience before I could accept that they are indeed experiencing deep meditative states. I also know that this event is preceded by the realization of the 4 Noble truths. Sometimes the discernment of these events is difficult, yet there are key aspects to it that would need to be described before I could actually believe them.

I have found this to be the case with other developments of the superior fruit as well, and often, deep realizations and hardships have been what I have referenced as indication.

So while discussing what he described as instant enlightenment. He referred to canonical sources, and even linked a short passage from MN, however, I am unable to find the exact passage to reference it in its entirety; however I'll type out what he linked, and go from there.

Quote from:  Majjhima Nikaya, unknown
...determination with the mind. When I do so there will be no unwholesome states, such as covetousness, ill-will, and presumption in me, and with abandoning them my mind acquires confidence in this (foundation). Once there is full confidence, he either attains to imperturbable now or else he resolves [upon it] in wisdom. On the dissolution of body, after death, it is possible that the evolving consciousness may pass on [to rebirth] in the imperturbable...the first way to imperturbable. 


Gosh in writing this I also realize that I am shooting myself in the foot by even engaging in this....the struggle is real. Yet maybe someone else can derive motivation to continue searching from reading this.

In the passage above, I collect that determination is the spiritual will. Presumption, unwholesome states, ill-will, and covetousness I understand as primarily unknown factors; those that needs be let go of, as they are faculties of the subconscious, and will ultimately lead you where they WILL upon OOBE or death...Let go or be dragged, as the Zen proverb puts it.

So when I read "he either attains to imperturbable now", I understand this as an accomplished meditator. One who understands the 4 stages of Jhana thoroughly, and has learned from them experientially, and thus has full awareness and full will in the OOBE or death.

The debate arose on "he resolves [upon it] in wisdom". His take was that through contemplation, one needs not experience. He used Ananda as an example in attaining full enlightenment upon the death of the Buddha. He also referenced others that upon meeting the Buddha, they also attained full enlightenment. Again, I remind myself that a tree is known by its fruit. How could there be such thing as "poof" enlightened, if it contradicts the entire teaching all-together. Well I say not likely, however, it is recounted.

A problem that I run into is that wisdom, from my own view, is knowing. Knowing is taught through experience. I know that I am not as smart as some, and perhaps I am unable to see the direct correlation between simply reading and contemplating to experiencing and knowing. I see that they walk hand in hand and not separate.

My own take from "he resolves [upon it] in wisdom" is that enough is known to take the final steps needed; which supported his side of the debate.

Can the GWV offer any insight into this?

Jhanananda

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Re: Discerning Attainment
« Reply #57 on: January 30, 2016, 03:10:24 PM »
I had a very interesting discussion with another contemplative last night about paths to enlightenment. It was his belief that there would come a time when one would just know when they are enlightened, and that work has been done. While I agree with this, I also disagree. "A tree is known by its fruit". This is something I have reminded myself of, and has often left me humbled; there is much more that I still need to learn.

This is so true, because we have too many people who genuinely believe that they are enlightened, and yet they demonstrate none of the superior fruit of enlightenment.

In reading the writings of the mystic I have seen "stages". That specific hardships could serve as a milestone along the path. An example of this would be meditative absorption. I would first expect someone to be able to recount a Kundalini awakening experience before I could accept that they are indeed experiencing deep meditative states. I also know that this event is preceded by the realization of the 4 Noble truths. Sometimes the discernment of these events is difficult, yet there are key aspects to it that would need to be described before I could actually believe them.

I have found this to be the case with other developments of the superior fruit as well, and often, deep realizations and hardships have been what I have referenced as indication.

This is also true, and we have to expect that the language of that experience is going to change from culture to culture and period to period.  For instance in Hinduism and Buddhism the experience that is called 'kundalini' today was called 'viray.' 2000 years ago.  In Christianity the experience that is called 'kundalini' today was called 'slain in the spirit' at one time in the past.

So while discussing what he described as instant enlightenment. He referred to canonical sources, and even linked a short passage from MN, however, I am unable to find the exact passage to reference it in its entirety; however I'll type out what he linked, and go from there.

Quote from:  Majjhima Nikaya, unknown
...determination with the mind. When I do so there will be no unwholesome states, such as covetousness, ill-will, and presumption in me, and with abandoning them my mind acquires confidence in this (foundation). Once there is full confidence, he either attains to imperturbable now or else he resolves [upon it] in wisdom. On the dissolution of body, after death, it is possible that the evolving consciousness may pass on [to rebirth] in the imperturbable...the first way to imperturbable. 


The problem with this quote is no reference at all is made to jhana, which is the 8th fold of the Noble Eightfold Path, so whom ever quoted this obscure section of the suttas is most probably deluding themselves.

Gosh in writing this I also realize that I am shooting myself in the foot by even engaging in this....the struggle is real. Yet maybe someone else can derive motivation to continue searching from reading this.

In the passage above, I collect that determination is the spiritual will. Presumption, unwholesome states, ill-will, and covetousness I understand as primarily unknown factors; those that needs be let go of, as they are faculties of the subconscious, and will ultimately lead you where they WILL upon OOBE or death...Let go or be dragged, as the Zen proverb puts it.

So when I read "he either attains to imperturbable now", I understand this as an accomplished meditator. One who understands the 4 stages of Jhana thoroughly, and has learned from them experientially, and thus has full awareness and full will in the OOBE or death.


Yes, I agree

The debate arose on "he resolves [upon it] in wisdom". His take was that through contemplation, one needs not experience. He used Ananda as an example in attaining full enlightenment upon the death of the Buddha. He also referenced others that upon meeting the Buddha, they also attained full enlightenment. Again, I remind myself that a tree is known by its fruit. How could there be such thing as "poof" enlightened, if it contradicts the entire teaching all-together. Well I say not likely, however, it is recounted.

A problem that I run into is that wisdom, from my own view, is knowing. Knowing is taught through experience. I know that I am not as smart as some, and perhaps I am unable to see the direct correlation between simply reading and contemplating to experiencing and knowing. I see that they walk hand in hand and not separate.

My own take from "he resolves [upon it] in wisdom" is that enough is known to take the final steps needed; which supported his side of the debate.

Can the GWV offer any insight into this?

This is a classic resort of the devout who never lead a rigorous, self-aware contemplative life; and just want to take a lobotomy for a belief system.
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Frederick

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Re: Discerning Attainment
« Reply #58 on: January 06, 2017, 07:01:59 PM »
Just saw this, Alexander. Finally some hope!

I can see myself here. Was getting a big--I don't know, humbled, talking to others at how little I have achieved, spiritually.

Good to see I have most of these on the list. Restlessness is a big problem for me as is pride.

I'll read the articles on continue to practice. That's pretty much all it boils down to for me, more practice. This is why I don't ask much nor contribute much.

But I do take great spiritual sustenance from the community.

The outage made me appreciate it even more.

Thanks all.

Here are some ideas I use for discerning attainment. I try to be very conservative. If I do not know someone well enough, I will not make a judgment. I do not claim my judgments are indisputable, but I have not met someone with a system comparable to my own.

(I) The Four Noble Ones

Streamwinner

These days this is the hardest one for me. I need to be very well acquainted with the person. Critical to me about streamwinners is:
- They have a belief in "something more" than what can be seen or felt. This can be expressed in different ways. The person may have contradictory beliefs, but that does not compromise streamwinning.
- Streamwinners are able to instill mystic knowledge with the importance it deserves.
- Streamwinners can distinguish between mystic knowledge and ordinary knowledge.

That last point is very important. It's what makes streamwinners special. If they were not seeking liberation, they would not be able to distinguish "mystic" knowledge from regular knowledge.

Once-returner

The two major human fetters - sensuality and ill will - have been weakened. This person can never take human affairs seriously in the way an ordinary person can. They have already discovered something very great, though they may not understand what intellectually. While a streamwinner is a "seeker" in the absolute sense, a once-returner is already a "finder" in the relative sense.

Another thing I look for in once-returners is a major personal transformation. In my experience such an event is universal. But, I try to remember that the person may not invest this event with personal significance. He could see it as something unique to him, and not as a natural part of spiritual growth.

Nonreturner

These people are very rare in the world. But I always see them. They are very interesting people, because they have a great amount of gravity beneath the surface.

A nonreturner has totally effaced the human fetters. This means he will not return to the human realm again. That is very profound.

Arahant

The supreme state of man spiritually. I look for the dark night of the soul, profound emotional and intellectual refinement, and the religious experience.

(II) What are some of the things I look for in general?

Streamwinner:
- belief in mystic knowledge
- belief in a "way out of the world"
- respect given to spiritual teachers but an admittance of what one doesn't know

Important fetters:
- Sensuality
- Ill will
- Restlessness

Also:
- Inconsistency, pride, or lack of equilibrium; usually this shows a person who lacks self-knowledge - tied to the fetter of restlessness

Important events:
- A transformative experience that alters the person's vision of himself and the world
- The dark night of the soul

Attainments:
- Self-arising joy
- The ability to be alone and be happy
- A consistent self behind all the roles we play in a day
- The still mind
- A gravity when in the person's presence; not tangible to the ordinary person

(III) Critical things to read

(1) The Buddha's explanation of the 4 stages of liberation: Excellent chart.

(2) Ouspensky's writings on the 4 higher kinds of man: The Psychology of Man's Possible Evolution, 54-55; Fragments of an Unknown Teaching, 71-73.

(3) R. M. Bucke's list of people throughout history: Cosmic Consciousness.

(IV) Important threads

Ramana Maharshi an arahant based on 2 crises and evidence of the religious experience: http://fruitofthecontemplativelife.org/forum/index.php/topic,540.0.html

List of Socrates, Walt Whitman and others and their attainment based on jhana: http://fruitofthecontemplativelife.org/forum/index.php/topic,591.0.html

Vision of the Noble Ones as a spiritual gift: http://fruitofthecontemplativelife.org/forum/index.php/topic,727.0.html

Michel's blog: http://fruitofthecontemplativelife.org/forum/index.php/topic,767.15.html

Frederick

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Re: Discerning Attainment
« Reply #59 on: January 06, 2017, 07:19:30 PM »
I have 1-10.

I love living; I love being human. I want to be re-born here.

I find human life to be satisfying and amazing.

That said, I'd also like to meditate and to reach higher states especially the jhanas. But this desire for jhana, currently, is weaker than my desire to live my life.

I practice as much as I can, though, and will do so until I die.

I do have faith in Buddhist practice, in meditation, and even that people in this group have spiritual attainment and knowledge beyond my own.

Otherwise, I'm very conceited and narcissistic.

This will be a place where I intend to intellectually hammer down on what level of attainment I might be at. I hope it becomes useful for others. I am using definitions from the internet because I feel like no one has ever given them! It is strange that I see these words over and over, and yet hardly a relative definition to go along with them.

5 Lower Fetters

1) Narcissism - extreme selfishness, with a grandiose view of one's own talents and a craving for admiration, as characterizing a personality type.

Anyone who knows me says I have none, which is a marked contrast to when I was in my early 20's. Now that I'm externally processing it like this, I'm remembering that I am almost certain I didn't have any narcissism when I was young. I can't remember the last time I even took anything "personal", or cared about how I look (beyond the knowledge that I should make an effort to look "good" for my partner and her parents because those things matter to them.)  God, that is such a wonderful feeling of freedom.

2) Skeptical doubt - Denying or questioning the tenets of a religion. regarding the doctrines or opinions of philosophical Skeptics.

I don't think I have any of this. I do remember a moment yesterday when I was reflecting on the fetters, and I thought "What if the deathless isn't actually true? Sure, Enlightenment is real, and you can attain arahantship and become conscious at all times; but what if when the physical body dies none of it ends up mattering?" But, there isn't a single thing, thought or anything which suggests the deathless isn't true, other than the fact that I haven't attained the deathless and finished this human life.

3) Clinging to rules, rights and rituals - This is pretty straight-forward. I think a good example is someone saying "You can't do that; it's illegal."

This is similar to my response to narcissim. I have absolutely no clinging to these things. In fact, when I was young (as early as 7 years old) I distinctly remember already being to this point, which got me in trouble often and left me confused and frustrated. Oh wow. i can't believe it. That's true. I never thought of it before. Anyway, regarding "rituals", I do have to unplug everything in my room and hide the few "valuables" I have before I leave my house. I think that's anxiety from sensing energies, though.

4) Desire for sensuality - Sensual means physically pleasing. It often is used in a sexual context, but is not exclusively sexual in meaning.

This is difficult to answer. My first thought is "No. None." Even when I was young, I never thought about sex or was interested in having a girlfriend. It was something "learned", just like the clinging to rites and rituals. My greatest concern in regards to this is that I use psychoactive medications to ease the difficulties and numb the pain of human life (aches, pains, sensing negative energies, being around too many people, no interest in worldly things.)

5) Ill-will or aversion - Animosity or bitterness. A strong dislike or disinclination.

No, I don't have any of this. I do have preferences, like silence, stillness, and solitude. And, I also have a preference against ordinary jobs because I've failed to keep SO many of them. Also, I avoid running out of medication at almost all costs. Also, I experience fear when the light of annihilation comes. The identity always jumps in and ruins it with evasive action.

5 Higher Fetters

1) Craving for Material Existence - Craving to be a human or animal, for example. (?)

I had this when I was younger. I wanted to be a cat. In terms of what I am consciously aware of, I do not have any craving for material existence. I crave "Home."

2) Craving for Immaterial Existence - Craving to be an angel/deva (?)

This is tough to answer, because I've only experienced the lower immaterial plane a few times. It seems pretty great up there, but it's not "Home."

3) Conceit - Excessive pride in oneself. A fanciful expression in writing or speech; an elaborate metaphor.

As of lately, I don't think I have this either. Which is making me think I'm seriously delusional to have made it this far down the fetters without admitting wholeheartedly to being guilty of one of them. I do put a good deal of effort into writing and other communication. But whenever it's something good, I can see it wasn't me, but the Dhamma. Often I write something intending it to say one thing, and then it ends up being even better than I intended. As if it "snuck" in or something. And I know I didn't do that on purpose. Sometimes I'll write a Facebook post to help stimulate contemplation in others, and I don't even know why I'm writing what I'm writing--it's just inspired. It only makes complete sense upon contemplating it.

4) Restlessness - Characterized by or showing inability to remain at rest: a restless mood. Unquiet or uneasy, as a person, the mind, or the heart.

Yes, I think i sometimes get this. One example is that I keep having to rearrange my legs, as I am sitting cross legged on the floor to type this, and the pain tells me to move the legs. I also wonder if without my medications (after withdrawal), if I would be more restless. Yes, I do think I have this, but I think it is mediated a lot by vaping (an electronic cigarette I use) and music.

5) Ignorance - Ignorance is a state of being uninformed (lack of knowledge).[1] The word ignorant is an adjective describing a person in the state of being unaware and is often used as an insult to describe individuals who deliberately ignore or disregard important information or facts.

I can't answer this one. If I was ignorant, I don't think I would know it. Wait, yes, I think I am a little bit ignorant. Sometimes my partner will suggest something, or someone else will, and it doesn't even register because I'm absorbed in some other contemplation or thought.

Hopefully somewhere in there can be identified the fetters I still have. I intend to come back and add all the rest of the marks of levels of enlightenment. Then future seekers or mystics can hopefully find it useful for them.