Cal's Meditation and Mystical Experience Records

[Jhanananda]

The demons will take every method possible to distract the contemplative: from aggressive and violent behavior, to seductive behavior.  Their object is simply to distract the contemplative who is actually making progress in deep meditation.

Otherwise the religious phenomena is many and varied, and can be quite uncomfortable when one first encounters it. So, the point of this forum is just to report this wide range of phenomena, so that others can find correlation with what they might be experiencing in their deep meditation state.

[Michel]

Well, Michel, what do these demons look like? The one who was on my face showed himself twice. His prominent features were in his mouth. I recall a painted like face, something you might see on a clown, but it wasnt a clown, but he WAS a clown in that he thought he was funny AND because he was a little shitstain. "Humanoid", yet the skin near his mouth seemed to melt away as it looked to be smiling. Jagged, very long, metalic, knife-like teeth. Both times this one showed itself he attempted to drift into view, and as he came closer, attempted to get a rise out of making me think he could bite me with his dumb face. This was a very mild encounter with them to say the least; and this particular one, a big wuss. He went back to standing on my face when he realized he couldnt scare me. The other one I did not see, I only felt him.

Often they can have a likeness to twisted feline predators. Often they can have a likeness to scaled dragon like things. I have seen so many, and all have been different, its really hard to classify them. Lets just say that they have been so unique that I could not imagine their uniqueness. The only one who was consistent for awhile was the Minotaur. And to put it lightly, he is one mean asshole. Out of all of them, and there have only been a few that were exceptional at what they do, yet in different ways, the minotaur was the only one that "shook" me, or "impacted" me, or "moved" me. I mean quite literally, at least in feeling.

You are indeed deep down in the rabbit hole, Cal. I hope to join you one day, and we can ask the mad hatter if he's figured out what the answer is to his riddle, "Why is a raven like a writing desk?" LOL

[Cal]

Well, Michel, what do these demons look like? The one who was on my face showed himself twice. His prominent features were in his mouth. I recall a painted like face, something you might see on a clown, but it wasnt a clown, but he WAS a clown in that he thought he was funny AND because he was a little shitstain. "Humanoid", yet the skin near his mouth seemed to melt away as it looked to be smiling. Jagged, very long, metalic, knife-like teeth. Both times this one showed itself he attempted to drift into view, and as he came closer, attempted to get a rise out of making me think he could bite me with his dumb face. This was a very mild encounter with them to say the least; and this particular one, a big wuss. He went back to standing on my face when he realized he couldnt scare me. The other one I did not see, I only felt him.

Often they can have a likeness to twisted feline predators. Often they can have a likeness to scaled dragon like things. I have seen so many, and all have been different, its really hard to classify them. Lets just say that they have been so unique that I could not imagine their uniqueness. The only one who was consistent for awhile was the Minotaur. And to put it lightly, he is one mean asshole. Out of all of them, and there have only been a few that were exceptional at what they do, yet in different ways, the minotaur was the only one that "shook" me, or "impacted" me, or "moved" me. I mean quite literally, at least in feeling.

You are indeed deep down in the rabbit hole, Cal. I hope to join you one day, and we can ask the mad hatter what if he's figured out what the answer is to his riddle, "Why is a raven like a writing desk?" LOL

That is an odd question indeed. If it wasnt for the neutrality meditation has provided, I'd likely be discussing this under different circumstances haha. I know you have spent a great deal of energy combing the Suttas; have you seen any reference to these types of experiences there-in?

Also, I'm more than open to talking with you about your meditations and such. 

[Michel]

I know you have spent a great deal of energy combing the Suttas; have you seen any reference to these types of experiences there-in?

No, I haven't come across anything in the suttas similar to these types of experiences. It leaves one with many questions.

Also, I'm more than open to talking with you about your meditations and such. 

I don't have much to report about my meditations other than I'm experiencing the1st jhana according to some people here. I'm just slogging away trying to figure it all out. I'm working on relaxing, letting go and being content with whatever pleasant or unpleasant feelings arise and pass away without grasping or feeling aversion towards them.

[Cal]

I know you have spent a great deal of energy combing the Suttas; have you seen any reference to these types of experiences there-in?

No, I haven't come across anything in the suttas similar to these types of experiences. It leaves one with many questions.

Well, I know my own perception of things has a play in this. It could be that this is the way my mind chooses to view, even if that much is out of my control. I also have many questions in this regard, however, I also understand why something like this would not be described in great detail, as well. I think making a point to express all of these things vividly only serves to create an expectation for another; and lets be honest, who would want to view something like this. It could serve as a detourent as well. I think the same could also be said about the good things one might see.

Also, I'm more than open to talking with you about your meditations and such. 

I don't have much to report about my meditations other than I'm experiencing the1st jhana according to some people here. I'm just slogging away trying to figure it all out. I'm working on relaxing, letting go and being content with whatever pleasant or unpleasant feelings arise and pass away without grasping or feeling aversion towards them.

I can understand the aversion, but not the grasping. When you recognize the charisms, you bring full awareness to them and grasp them gently. I recall reading an essay from Jeff about how it can be much like riding a horse in that you, as the rider, must maintain a firm grip, but not a taught grip on the reigns of the horse, otherwise the horse would rather just eat the grass in front of him. He used this analogy in the context of OOBE, yet I believe it applies here as well. The balance of aversion and grasping falls more into the context of your thoughts or unpleasant feelings or the "rogue mind", at least thats what I've found in meditation. When I've relaxed sufficiently to be the "rider", its in the tingling or cool breeze upon the surface of my skin that I grasp; its everything else that I let fall away.

On another note, last nights meditation was the first time ever that I did not feel anything "unpleasant" near me. I had 0 encounters with them and it was one of the most serene meditation experiences I have ever had. I feel like much work was accomplished last night, and I hope this can continue. 

Funny though, at first there was a bit of anxiety present as I kept expecting something. When nothing negative at all was happening, I REALLY thought something BIG was gonna happen. It took a bit of time to drop this expectation and really just enjoy the experience, and to just remind myself that even if something did happen; so what, its just another stroll in the park.

[Cal]

Some time ago I realized that pushing something away was the same as clutching at it.  Now, I just sit in meditation with a still mind.  When I close my eyes I see light, as if it were day time.

When I see this light, as if it were day time, it feels as though I am separating from my physical body. Like if someone was to take a vacuum nozzle shaped perfectly to my body, place it over me, then turn on the vacuum. There is even a rushing sound and feeling to it, much like the moving of air. Sometimes this can happen several times in a deep meditation. But, so far, there is always an excitement that comes over me and it will just stop.

[Michel]

Well, I know my own perception of things has a play in this. It could be that this is the way my mind chooses to view, even if that much is out of my control. I also have many questions in this regard, however, I also understand why something like this would not be described in great detail, as well. I think making a point to express all of these things vividly only serves to create an expectation for another; and lets be honest, who would want to view something like this. It could serve as a detourent as well. I think the same could also be said about the good things one might see.

It would be interesting if others would describe their experiences to see what similarities there are to yours.

Jhananda made reference to the demons use of seduction to distract. I think he implied sexuality, wealth, power, etc. Did you ever come across something like this?

I can understand the aversion, but not the grasping. When you recognize the charisms, you bring full awareness to them and grasp them gently.

I meant grasping or craving for the pleasant sensations in meditation. Wanting anything to occur creates a state of agitation which is detrimental to the meditation.

On another note, last nights meditation was the first time ever that I did not feel anything "unpleasant" near me. I had 0 encounters with them and it was one of the most serene meditation experiences I have ever had. I feel like much work was accomplished last night, and I hope this can continue. 

Way to go, old chap. I'm very glad to hear this. I hope it continues. I had a break through today as well. I had a couple of head orgasms. I experienced this mild explosive feeling of radiance and expansion in the head when I placed my attention on the pressure sensations in the head. I felt it could go further, but it didn't. It's 1st jhana stuff, I'd say.

Funny though, at first there was a bit of anxiety present as I kept expecting something. When nothing negative at all was happening, I REALLY thought something BIG was gonna happen. It took a bit of time to drop this expectation and really just enjoy the experience, and to just remind myself that even if something did happen; so what, its just another stroll in the park.

I think it's all about being in the now or just experiencing whatever is happening in the present moment without craving for anything and letting whatever is going to happen, happen. Everything arises and passes away. Just watch it and let it go, don't get involved with it. That's what I've learned from meditation so far. I believe meditation teaches you everything.

[Cal]

Well, I know my own perception of things has a play in this. It could be that this is the way my mind chooses to view, even if that much is out of my control. I also have many questions in this regard, however, I also understand why something like this would not be described in great detail, as well. I think making a point to express all of these things vividly only serves to create an expectation for another; and lets be honest, who would want to view something like this. It could serve as a detourent as well. I think the same could also be said about the good things one might see.

It would be interesting if others would describe their experiences to see what similarities there are to yours.

Jhananda made reference to the demons use of seduction to distract. I think he implied sexuality, wealth, power, etc. Did you ever come across something like this?

Well, they have, just in different ways. I've noticed in several other members case histories that they have described similar experiences. The only difference would be where some of the finer details may have been omitted. I also understand why they were left out. But in reading them, and walking through the descriptions of them, I see the very same things.

I've always had a visual quality to words and stories. So, reading a book is the same as watching a movie to me. I immerse myself in it and live the experience that they write. In doing so, a sort of empathetic trait is present. There are times that I can feel what they were feeling as they moved through these thoughts, and expressed them. I think this is how I see the similarities.

Yes, I have come across this "seduction", although, seduction isnt something that has ever worked for me. I think the important note in this is that they will use any means possible to distract you. In order for an assbag to seduce someone with something, there must be an underlining desire first. I have never wanted to be a leader, or rich, or powerful, or influential, or a porn star, or anything like that; so they can go fly a kite with all that shit.

It seems as though these particular actions were more visable in the dream space than in meditation. Although, there were a few times that I have seen beautiful women in meditation, mostly in the third jhana when a very pleasurable sensation is present. I took these kinds of images and feelings to be an attempt at seduction, from them. However, the pleasurable sensation in the third jhana, or intense vibration, is not the work of a demon. It's hard to put the differences into words, but when you experience it, one knows the difference.

This type of influence isnt limited to only seduction though. There are many different ways they might go about their shenanigans.

I can understand the aversion, but not the grasping. When you recognize the charisms, you bring full awareness to them and grasp them gently.

I meant grasping or craving for the pleasant sensations in meditation. Wanting anything to occur creates a state of agitation which is detrimental to the meditation.

Very true. I suppose supporting the word grasping was a poor choice on my part, as its not exactly what I meant.

On another note, last nights meditation was the first time ever that I did not feel anything "unpleasant" near me. I had 0 encounters with them and it was one of the most serene meditation experiences I have ever had. I feel like much work was accomplished last night, and I hope this can continue. 

Way to go, old chap. I'm very glad to hear this. I hope it continues. I had a break through today as well. I had a couple of head orgasms. I experienced this mild explosive feeling of radiance and expansion in the head when I placed my attention on the pressure sensations in the head. I felt it could go further, but it didn't. It's 1st jhana stuff, I'd say.

It sounds like you opened your crown chakra. That radiance Michel, look for it elsewhere. You might feel that same radiant feeling on the tips of your fingers or the bottoms of your feet. You could even feel it now. Close your eyes. Take a deep, relaxing breath. As you exhale, place your awareness onto your hands. Hold off on the inhale for a moment, and search in awareness for what may or may not be there. It may take a couple of inhale/exhales to relax.

It would likely be second jhana if youre feeling that haha. Good work! Remember, the first jhana is nothing more than a pleasant abiding in your religious activity. Youre not likely to have the awareness of a radiant feeling until youve found some measure of tranquility in your mind, so I'd say your experience was further than the first jhana.

Funny though, at first there was a bit of anxiety present as I kept expecting something. When nothing negative at all was happening, I REALLY thought something BIG was gonna happen. It took a bit of time to drop this expectation and really just enjoy the experience, and to just remind myself that even if something did happen; so what, its just another stroll in the park.

I think it's all about being in the now or just experiencing whatever is happening in the present moment without craving for anything and letting whatever is going to happen, happen. Everything arises and passes away. Just watch it and let it go, don't get involved with it. That's what I've learned from meditation so far. I believe meditation teaches you everything.

110% Agreed 

[Jhanananda]

You are indeed deep down in the rabbit hole, Cal. I hope to join you one day, and we can ask the mad hatter if he's figured out what the answer is to his riddle, "Why is a raven like a writing desk?" LOL

When you fully fall down the rabbit hole, then make friends with a raven while camping in the wilderness for a few years, and OOBE with the ravens, then your friend the raven comes to die by you, with a flock of his relatives for his funeral, then you will know why a raven is like a writing desk.

I can understand the aversion, but not the grasping. When you recognize the charisms, you bring full awareness to them and grasp them gently. I recall reading an essay from Jeff about how it can be much like riding a horse in that you, as the rider, must maintain a firm grip, but not a taught grip on the reigns of the horse, otherwise the horse would rather just eat the grass in front of him. He used this analogy in the context of OOBE, yet I believe it applies here as well.

Precisely.

I had a break through today as well. I had a couple of head orgasms. I experienced this mild explosive feeling of radiance and expansion in the head when I placed my attention on the pressure sensations in the head. I felt it could go further, but it didn't. It's 1st jhana stuff, I'd say.

Good work Michel. Now the challenge will be make this happen every time you meditate.  The second jhana is the stilling of the mind.  The big stuff, like the feeling that your head is exploding is more typical of the 3rd and 4th jhanas.

[Cal]

Lately I have been trying to keep some measure of time to my meditations, as recently, I have been taking my rest periods for 12+ hours. I've always been one to stay up late, as most of my working career was on the graveyard shift, and I've just kept near that schedule. But I've never really slept for so long. As a matter of fact, when I was working, I would rarely sleep more than 5-6 hours. So, the last 3 nights, instead of snapping myself out of the meditative state and just rolling over to sleep, I've thought to check a clock. I've noticed my meditations have been anywhere from 2-4 hours-so that at least accounts for a portion of my rest period.

These meditations have been extremely deep. I feel as though I have connected with my inner self in a way I had not known before. The meditation progressions are swift; with my only enemy being my "rouge mind". The odd thing though, random thoughts or "awareness darting" really only seems to get in the way near the climax's  of these meditations. It seems as though I am able to keep a constant awareness on the charisms, whether they be the audio charism, or the breeze upon the skin, all while having a brief reminder that there is something that I should not forget in the coming days. I should note that these thoughts are only a single arising thought, and I will only briefly entertain them, nonetheless, even this single thought arising can get in the way when moving into the 5th.

Which brings me to that place. Over and over again, while in the void where I do not feel my physical body, there comes this hissing, surging, rushing, sparkling, vacuum, amazing-ness. This is where my "rouge mind", or even awareness darting from event to event, gets me into trouble. I've learned how to return to this place, where all this wild stuff starts happening, but not how to surrender to it. Theres always something that will distract my awareness from this very beautiful thing. Whether that be that my breathe is constricted to where it feels like I cannot exhale, or that my heart begins to beat rapidly and is like a bass drum throughout my entire body. These 2 are the usual culprits, but, occasionally it can be an out of left field random thought; "I really like blue". 

These last couple weeks in this place have changed my perspective massively. For one, I think I have a much better understanding of why physical health has earned its emphasis here. To be honest, while it is of course a natural thing to be concerned about health, I used to be unsure about how it may have an effect on meditation. Let's just say I've learned that even the slightest joint inflammation feels like fire if you're aware of it for the span of hours. I also learned that I have a slight amount of swelling in my gums that I was unaware of previously lol.

There was this sort of "flatness" that started to come over my "body" that I havent felt before tonight. It was in the 4th, as there was only a void (except for a shifting awareness of a heartbeat and breath), except there was a familiar shitbag heat to it. So as this flatness systematically came over me, something started pulling my arm. I wrestled with allowing it to move, gently, but as I did so, my sit regressed. Apparently stopping movement or resisting them requires more cognition than I am allowed in that space. So I let it go until my arm was fully extended. Then the same thing happened with my head. It was moved from an upright position, while prone, laying on my back, to my left cheek laying flat on the couch where I was meditating. I've felt this kind of crap before, but never really so gently. In the past it has been yanks and awkwardness. I do not think this was connected with the flatness Im talking about, only that it happened around the same time. This flatness was like pouring a film of liquid over a surface, however it did not have a liquid feel, I only use it to describe how it slowly crept over me. It was much like when I first began meditating deeply, in the 2nd-3rd, scanning in awareness and the charisms slowly engulfing me. But this only had heat and a flatness...idk     

Man, the kriya was intense tonight as well. I had major muscle spasms in large muscle groups. I swear, if someone had been watching me, Im sure they would have thought I was having a seizure at times. Super awesome though, as it was also newish in the extent of them, so it helped me with equanimity. They didnt distract me long, but when your thigh muscle spasms and kicks up, it warrants a small reaction  .

I feel as though I should start a mid day meditation to go with the waking/before sleep. There are times before my night meditation that I can become uneasy. If I can say anything, having an awareness to whats around me has been one of my bigger challenges. For example, 3 nights ago I believe, something came rushing past me. This was a good feeling, thankfully, and that nights meditation was asshat free. If I was paying better attention at the time, I would have thanked them, as Im sure it had something to do with the peaceful meditation. Ya, the midday meditation could definitely do some good.
 
On a final note, I've been having very long, continuous dreams. These dreams are extremely intriguing...and even entertaining at times haha. The other night for a good long while, I was a pirate on a ship. Splendid detail in what was going on, the events, my "same" personality. I didnt have a close connected feeling in this one though, although I did have a a knowledge of what was to come, somehow someway. It ended in a flash and a new one started, idk maybe I got bored with it haha. The dreams arent always very vivid, as most have been "distant", but it seems like all of them have their moments of lucidity. I should make a note to remind myself to "wake up" during them, after I end my night meditation.

Thanks again for listening to my rants GWV =). If you guys have any advice on the transition to the 5th, or about these newer things that are happening, it would be much appreciated. If not, thats ok too, as I really do love the place I am in now, and I know ill get used to it eventually  .

 

[Jhanananda]

Lately I have been trying to keep some measure of time to my meditations, as recently, I have been taking my rest periods for 12+ hours. I've always been one to stay up late, as most of my working career was on the graveyard shift, and I've just kept near that schedule. But I've never really slept for so long. As a matter of fact, when I was working, I would rarely sleep more than 5-6 hours. So, the last 3 nights, instead of snapping myself out of the meditative state and just rolling over to sleep, I've thought to check a clock. I've noticed my meditations have been anywhere from 2-4 hours-so that at least accounts for a portion of my rest period.

When I decided to see what would happen if I meditated as long as I could, I too resorted to checking a clock before and after the sit.  If an hour had not gone by, then I sat longer.  Eventually it averaged 2 hour sits, which led to the superior fruit of attainment (maha-phala).

These meditations have been extremely deep. I feel as though I have connected with my inner self in a way I had not known before. The meditation progressions are swift; with my only enemy being my "rouge mind". The odd thing though, random thoughts or "awareness darting" really only seems to get in the way near the climax's  of these meditations. It seems as though I am able to keep a constant awareness on the charisms, whether they be the audio charism, or the breeze upon the skin, all while having a brief reminder that there is something that I should not forget in the coming days. I should note that these thoughts are only a single arising thought, and I will only briefly entertain them, nonetheless, even this single thought arising can get in the way when moving into the 5th.

A still mind is all one needs, so one with a still mind need not worry about a "rough" mind.  One of the aides that I resorted to decades ago for keeping the mind still throughout the day was keeping a piece of paper or not pad and pencil in my shirt pocket, and jotting down a note to remind me of something that kept coming the mind while meditating.  That way, my mind could let go of the persistent recollection of something important.

Which brings me to that place. Over and over again, while in the void where I do not feel my physical body, there comes this hissing, surging, rushing, sparkling, vacuum, amazing-ness. This is where my "rouge mind", or even awareness darting from event to event, gets me into trouble. I've learned how to return to this place, where all this wild stuff starts happening, but not how to surrender to it. Theres always something that will distract my awareness from this very beautiful thing. Whether that be that my breathe is constricted to where it feels like I cannot exhale, or that my heart begins to beat rapidly and is like a bass drum throughout my entire body. These 2 are the usual culprits, but, occasionally it can be an out of left field random thought; "I really like blue". 

You are so very close.  I am certain that if you just get very good at maintaining a still mind throughout the day, then so much more "amazing-ness" will happen for you.

These last couple weeks in this place have changed my perspective massively. For one, I think I have a much better understanding of why physical health has earned its emphasis here. To be honest, while it is of course a natural thing to be concerned about health, I used to be unsure about how it may have an effect on meditation. Let's just say I've learned that even the slightest joint inflammation feels like fire if you're aware of it for the span of hours. I also learned that I have a slight amount of swelling in my gums that I was unaware of previously lol.

Yes, mindful self-awareness brings our attention to the body's state of health; and the discipline that comes from leading a mindful self-aware lifestyle comes to our aide to make the necessary lifestyle changes for our health, which in turn benefits our contemplative life.

There was this sort of "flatness" that started to come over my "body" that I havent felt before tonight. It was in the 4th, as there was only a void (except for a shifting awareness of a heartbeat and breath), except there was a familiar shitbag heat to it. So as this flatness systematically came over me, something started pulling my arm. I wrestled with allowing it to move, gently, but as I did so, my sit regressed. Apparently stopping movement or resisting them requires more cognition than I am allowed in that space. So I let it go until my arm was fully extended. Then the same thing happened with my head. It was moved from an upright position, while prone, laying on my back, to my left cheek laying flat on the couch where I was meditating. I've felt this kind of crap before, but never really so gently. In the past it has been yanks and awkwardness. I do not think this was connected with the flatness Im talking about, only that it happened around the same time. This flatness was like pouring a film of liquid over a surface, however it did not have a liquid feel, I only use it to describe how it slowly crept over me. It was much like when I first began meditating deeply, in the 2nd-3rd, scanning in awareness and the charisms slowly engulfing me. But this only had heat and a flatness...idk     

This could be scary to a person who is not prepared for the strange world of the immaterial domains.  Eventually you will become invisible to the demons, then they will not be able to effect you.

Man, the kriya was intense tonight as well. I had major muscle spasms in large muscle groups. I swear, if someone had been watching me, Im sure they would have thought I was having a seizure at times. Super awesome though, as it was also newish in the extent of them, so it helped me with equanimity. They didnt distract me long, but when your thigh muscle spasms and kicks up, it warrants a small reaction  .

Yes, the kriya is a wonderful release.  Those who meditate deeply will keep having them until the stresses, which cause the build up of energy in the physiology, are finally gone.

I feel as though I should start a mid day meditation to go with the waking/before sleep. There are times before my night meditation that I can become uneasy. If I can say anything, having an awareness to whats around me has been one of my bigger challenges. For example, 3 nights ago I believe, something came rushing past me. This was a good feeling, thankfully, and that nights meditation was asshat free. If I was paying better attention at the time, I would have thanked them, as Im sure it had something to do with the peaceful meditation. Ya, the midday meditation could definitely do some good.

It sounds like you are starting to become transparent.
 

On a final note, I've been having very long, continuous dreams. These dreams are extremely intriguing...and even entertaining at times haha. The other night for a good long while, I was a pirate on a ship. Splendid detail in what was going on, the events, my "same" personality. I didnt have a close connected feeling in this one though, although I did have a a knowledge of what was to come, somehow someway. It ended in a flash and a new one started, idk maybe I got bored with it haha. The dreams arent always very vivid, as most have been "distant", but it seems like all of them have their moments of lucidity. I should make a note to remind myself to "wake up" during them, after I end my night meditation.

It sounds like you are building lucidity in the sleep domain.  Very good.

Thanks again for listening to my rants GWV =). If you guys have any advice on the transition to the 5th, or about these newer things that are happening, it would be much appreciated. If not, thats ok too, as I really do love the place I am in now, and I know ill get used to it eventually  .

Just attend to stilling your mind in every moment.  The rest comes along when you are ready.

[Michel]

You are indeed deep down in the rabbit hole, Cal. I hope to join you one day, and we can ask the mad hatter if he's figured out what the answer is to his riddle, "Why is a raven like a writing desk?" LOL

When you fully fall down the rabbit hole, then make friends with a raven while camping in the wilderness for a few years, and OOBE with the ravens, then your friend the raven comes to die by you, with a flock of his relatives for his funeral, then you will know why a raven is like a writing desk.

I would like to have the same experience one day, Jeffrey. Are ravens capable of OOBE experiences on their own, or did you bring them along for a ride?

[Michel]

I know why a raven is like a writing desk. It's because they both stand on their legs. LOL

[Jhanananda]

I would like to have the same experience one day, Jeffrey. Are ravens capable of OOBE experiences on their own, or did you bring them along for a ride?

Yes, of course, ravens and all other creatures are capable of an OOBE.  Have you never observed a dog dreaming?

I know why a raven is like a writing desk. It's because they both stand on their legs. LOL

I was thinking more abstractly, but thanks for delivering the punch line. 

I recall that summer that I spent so much time in the wilderness, and away from humans, that I began to forget how to speak, while learning to understand what the ravens said to each other, which for me was how a raven is like a writing desk, or a means of communication, because they chatter amongst themselves, much like humans do.

[Michel]

I would like to have the same experience one day, Jeffrey. Are ravens capable of OOBE experiences on their own, or did you bring them along for a ride?

Yes, of course, ravens and all other creatures are capable of an OOBE.  Have you never observed a dog dreaming?

Are you suggesting that dreaming is an OOBE?