Fruit of the contemplative life: > Recollection of Past Lives
Recollection of Past Lives
Alexander:
--- Quote from: Jhanananda on January 21, 2013, 01:21:08 AM ---Well, let us say it is umimaginable, so I cannot explain it to you. You will just have to experience it sometime. But, annihilation is the scariest thing you will ever have to deal with. But, once you give up all of the fetters, guess what? You get infinity back.
--- End quote ---
So would you say, since you are annihilated, you are "immortal"?
Cybermonk:
Aloha to you Cybermonks,
I have to confess, I'm not a master of dogma. I generally sit around the
fire, listening in some fascination, to beings dovetailing the many paths
of existence, back into plain common sense.
To me.... throwing out the baby with the bath water, seems to be what's
usually being proposed, for a being who's trying to just get to the truth
of this existence.
So... why stop reincarnation? Why not keep it all? Of course, considering
using this viewpoint, is like contemplating having absolutely nothing
to identify yourself with. What would a being express to others, if they
denied and accepted existence at the same time?
Another thought.... what possible viewpoint could accept total annihilation?
Would it be, " the heck with all this, I'm totally outa here".
A problem may arise for beings when then truly discover, "there is no end".
No way of getting "outa here".
So then what.... oh contemplatives? HAHahahahahah. So.... enjoy the
play of life. What did that old greybeard say? "Energy can't be created or
destroyed". Are we having fun yet?
Kimo
Jhanananda:
--- Quote from: aglorincz on February 07, 2013, 02:42:06 PM ---So would you say, since you are annihilated, you are "immortal"?
--- End quote ---
Conflating annihilation with immortality is a classic problem in religion. It depends upon how you interpret immortality verses how the concept of immortality was understood by the enlightened who used terms that are interpreted today as immortality.
In the Pali canon there is a term 'amata', which is typically translated as 'the deathless." The Discourse of the Buddha frequently refer to the deathless. In fact one of the term used in the suttas for an enlightened person is 'Arahatta, and it means "one who has attained the deathless."
--- Quote ---SN V Mahavagga, 48 Indriyasamyutta (page 1699)
Connected Discourses on the Faculties
57 (7) Brahma Sahampati
“The five faculties, when developed and cultivated, have the Deathless as their ground, the Deathless as their destination, the Deathless as their final goal. What five? The faculty of faith, the faculty of energy, the faculty of mindfulness, the faculty of (absorption), the faculty of wisdom.”
(Samyutta Nikaya trans. Bhikkhus Nanamoli and Bodhi, Wisdom, 2000)
--- End quote ---
--- Quote ---Jhana Sutta - Mental Absorption (AN IX.36)
Translated from the Pali by Thanissaro Bhikkhu
"I tell you, the ending of the mental fermentations depends on the first jhana... the second jhana... the third... the fourth... the dimension of the infinitude of space... the dimension of the infinitude of consciousness... the dimension of nothingness. I tell you, the ending of the mental fermentations depends on the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception.
"'I tell you, the ending of the mental fermentations depends on the first jhana.' Thus it has been said. In reference to what was it said? There is the case where a monk, withdrawn from sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful qualities, enters and remains in the first jhana: rapture and pleasure born from withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought and evaluation. He regards whatever phenomena there that are connected with form, feeling, perception, fabrications, and consciousness, as inconstant, stressful, a disease, a cancer, an arrow, painful, an affliction, alien, a disintegration, an emptiness, not-self. He turns his mind away from those phenomena, and having done so, inclines his mind to the property of deathlessness: 'This is peace, this is exquisite ˜ the resolution of all fabrications; the relinquishment of all acquisitions; the ending of craving; dispassion; cessation; Unbinding.'
--- End quote ---
--- Quote ---Ariyapariyesana Sutta (MN: 26.12; 26.18; 26.20f)
The Noble Search
“And, what is the noble search? Here someone being subject to birth seeks the unborn supreme security from bondage, Nibbana; being subject to ageing, having understood the danger in what is subject to ageing, he seeks the unageing supreme security from bondage, Nibbana; being subject to sickness, having understood the danger in what is subject to sickness, he seeks the unailing supreme security from bondage, Nibbana; being subject to death, having understood the danger in what is subject to death, he seeks the deathless supreme security from bondage, Nibbana; being subject to sorrow, having understood the danger in being subject to sorrow, he seeks the sorrowless supreme security from bondage, Nibbana; being subject to defilements (corruption), having understood the danger in what is subject to defilement, he seeks the undefiled supreme security from bondage, Nibbana. This is the noble search.” Having “…attained the undefiled supreme security from bondage, Nibbana,” the Buddha said, “the knowledge and vision arose in me: ‘My deliverance is unshakeable; this is my last birth; now there is no renewal of being.’”
--- End quote ---
Sources for the Deathless (Amata):
Deathless, door to (Amatassa dvara) DN: 14.3.7; 18.27; n 535
MN: 26.12; 26.18; 26.20f; 52.15; 64.9ff; 106.13; n. 1023
SN: 216; 232-233; 268; 290; 432 n. 368; 461-62 n. 510; 464-65 n 522; 1528; 1549-50; 1658; 1660; 1690; 1699
It just so happens that the Christian Gospels refer to Eternal life. In New Testament theology, in addition to "life" (zoe, i.e. ζωὴ in Greek), there is also a promised spiritual life sometimes described by the adjective eternal (aionios i.e. αἰώνιος in Greek) but other times simply referred to as "life".[3][15] In the New Testament.
The Amata concept of Buddhism could give new meaning to the concept of Eternal life in Christianity, especially if Jesus was a contemplative who was versed in Buddhist thought. Perhaps his use to the concept of Eternal life was a direct reference to the deathless of Buddhism.
Now, what were Jesus and Siddhartha Gautama getting at when they referred to the Deathless or eternal life? I believe they were referring to getting to such a deep place in meditation that one never loses consciousness during the sleep cycle. How do I get there? Well, getting there requires understanding the world-view of most peoples before Galileo.
Before Galileo pointed his telescope at the night sky and discovered that the points of light on the night sky were stars, planets and moons. Prior to Galileo it was believed that the points of light in the night sky were angles, in fact that is why the night sky is also called the "heavens." Because people thought is was heaven, where God and angles live. Another aspect of the world-view of ancient peoples is to understand that they believed when we dreamed at night we were visiting the afterlife.
Thus, someone who is fully lucid in the sleep state and never loses consciousness during the sleep cycle has, by Buddhist doctrinal reference, arrived at the deathless (amata), thus that person is an Arahatta. However, that does not mean that one's physical body is immortal. It is such a one's spirit that is immortal.
Further annihilation is not gone for ever, but the identity of that person is; however, the spirit persists. Spirit here is not an aggregate of cognition, nor an identity. It is just a boundless awareness domain.
In answer to Kimo's response: Kimo, what is the point in returning for another lifetime if humans are insane, stupid greedy and addicted? What is the point in returning for another lifetime if humans are going to not only completely disregard their mystics, but marginalize them? I see no point in coming back, because what useful purpose has been made of this lifetime?
Luke Avedon:
Hello,
Very interesting thoughts.
I came across this little blurb from Thanissaro Bhikhhu which seemed to shed some light on the idea for me:
--- Quote ---“The Pali commentaries support this point by tracing the word nibbana to its verbal root, which means "unbinding." What kind of unbinding? The texts describe two levels. One is the unbinding in this lifetime, symbolized by a fire that has gone out but whose embers are still warm. This stands for the enlightened arahant, who is conscious of sights and sounds, sensitive to pleasure and pain, but freed from passion, aversion, and delusion. The second level of unbinding, symbolized by a fire so totally out that its embers have grown cold, is what the arahant experiences after this life. All input from the senses cools away and he/she is totally freed from even the subtlest stresses and limitations of existence in space and time.” (Source: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/thanissaro/nirvanaverb.html)
--- End quote ---
I guess this second level of “unbinding” is the: “Unconditioned, luminous consciousness without features” or
--- Quote ---Further annihilation is not gone for ever, but the identity of that person is; however, the spirit persists. Spirit here is not an aggregate of cognition, nor an identity. It is just a boundless awareness domain.
--- End quote ---
All sounds totally unimaginable and out there so I’ll just have to leave it at that.
Since you mentioned this very provocative idea:
--- Quote ---Thus, someone who is fully lucid in the sleep state and never loses consciousness during the sleep cycle has, by Buddhist doctrinal reference, arrived at the deathless (amata), thus that person is an Arahatta. “
--- End quote ---
If the Arahatta still has any mental anxiety or craving however, aren’t they not an Arahat? even if they can stay awake during the entire sleep cycle? I guess you mean that both those attainments seem to be correlated.
Anyway, all this talk of sleep made me think of something else I had wanted to ask for some time.
I believe I read in some of your writing Jeffrey, that you report not only recollecting past lives, but actually reliving them in their entirety. (Unfortunately I can’t seem to find the source so perhaps I imagined this).
I was never quite sure if the Buddha mentioned that he just remembered all those aeons of lives back to his first one, or if he actually relieved them. I would assume the second would be far more convincing.
I know of Buddhists frustrated by their meditation attainments and not being able to get into a deep arupa or remember any past lives then turning to “regression hypnotists” which in my view is highly questionable.
--- Quote ---‘With the breakup of the body, following the exhaustion of life, all feelings, not being delighted in, will become cool right here; mere bodily remains will be left." - SN12.51(1).
--- End quote ---
Stephen La Berge, who has done all this research on lucid dreaming, apparently proved that dream time and real time are exactly the same. Meaning that dreams which are very very long are really just dreams with lots of different locations and such. If you are in REM for 90 minutes your dream will only last 90 minutes. When I had excellent dream recall I found this to be true.
If OBE’s and powerful visions, such as reliving an entire past life, are in fact not hallucinations but real. I would imagine that one of the tell tale signs was that they could go on a lot longer than dream time--for example literally reliving an entire lifetime.
Is this actually possible?
I could imagine people easily deluding themselves, as it is easy to only remember disjointed highlights of events--even a lifetimes worth of events.
P.S.
--- Quote ---“, especially if Jesus was a contemplative who was versed in Buddhist thought.”
--- End quote ---
Do you find the evidence for this convincing? I always lumped it together with the “Jesus was a Buddhist monk” theories which seemed to only be sensational television programming.
Jhanananda:
--- Quote from: Luke Avedon on February 08, 2013, 04:27:09 AM ---Hello,
Very interesting thoughts.
I came across this little blurb from Thanissaro Bhikhhu which seemed to shed some light on the idea for me:
--- Quote ---“The Pali commentaries support this point by tracing the word nibbana to its verbal root, which means "unbinding." What kind of unbinding? The texts describe two levels. One is the unbinding in this lifetime, symbolized by a fire that has gone out but whose embers are still warm. This stands for the enlightened arahant, who is conscious of sights and sounds, sensitive to pleasure and pain, but freed from passion, aversion, and delusion. The second level of unbinding, symbolized by a fire so totally out that its embers have grown cold, is what the arahant experiences after this life. All input from the senses cools away and he/she is totally freed from even the subtlest stresses and limitations of existence in space and time.” (Source: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/thanissaro/nirvanaverb.html)
--- End quote ---
--- End quote ---
I have not been impressed by either the commentaries nor Thanissaro translation work. I found I had to translate the suttas for myself to find out what they really say. For instance neither Thanissaro nor the commentaries seem to understand that jhana is pleasurable, desirable to cultivate for one seeking enlightenment in this very lifetime, and achievable by anyone who wishes.
--- Quote from: Luke Avedon on February 08, 2013, 04:27:09 AM ---I guess this second level of “unbinding” is the: “Unconditioned, luminous consciousness without features” or
--- End quote ---
When one is fully liberated, enlightened, then one is “Unconditioned, luminous consciousness without features.” It does not matter if they are dead or alive. However, if humans are going to consistently marginalize every enlightened being who comes to this planet; while lionizing every fraud and pedophiles, then what is the point of an enlightened being coming to this planet?
--- Quote ---Further annihilation is not gone for ever, but the identity of that person is; however, the spirit persists. Spirit here is not an aggregate of cognition, nor an identity. It is just a boundless awareness domain.
--- End quote ---
--- Quote from: Luke Avedon on February 08, 2013, 04:27:09 AM ---All sounds totally unimaginable and out there so I’ll just have to leave it at that.
--- End quote ---
You are correct, it cannot be imagined, and it is all too fantastic to relate anyway.
--- Quote from: Luke Avedon on February 08, 2013, 04:27:09 AM ---Since you mentioned this very provocative idea:
--- Quote ---Thus, someone who is fully lucid in the sleep state and never loses consciousness during the sleep cycle has, by Buddhist doctrinal reference, arrived at the deathless (amata), thus that person is an Arahatta. “
--- End quote ---
If the Arahatta still has any mental anxiety or craving however, aren’t they not an Arahat? even if they can stay awake during the entire sleep cycle? I guess you mean that both those attainments seem to be correlated.
--- End quote ---
Those who have anxiety or craving are not Arahattas; therefore they are not likely to remain fully conscious during every sleep cycle. Just remaining fully conscious through one sleep cycle is just a sleeping disorder.
--- Quote from: Luke Avedon on February 08, 2013, 04:27:09 AM ---Anyway, all this talk of sleep made me think of something else I had wanted to ask for some time.
I believe I read in some of your writing Jeffrey, that you report not only recollecting past lives, but actually reliving them in their entirety. (Unfortunately I can’t seem to find the source so perhaps I imagined this).
I was never quite sure if the Buddha mentioned that he just remembered all those aeons of lives back to his first one, or if he actually relieved them. I would assume the second would be far more convincing.
--- End quote ---
I have had both experiences of gaining a glimpse of past lifetimes, as well as fully reliving them as if it was the real lifetime from beginning to end with all of the salient details intact. The reason why this detail does not appear in the Pali canon, along with so many other details, is in part the Pali language is a simple language lacking the complexity of a language with a large literature, such as English. Pali is also a dead language and the Buddhist priesthood is clearly clueless on its subtle details, such as the importance of the attainment of jhana, and the other superior fruit (maha-phala).
--- Quote from: Luke Avedon on February 08, 2013, 04:27:09 AM --- I know of Buddhists frustrated by their meditation attainments and not being able to get into a deep arupa or remember any past lives then turning to “regression hypnotists” which in my view is highly questionable.
--- End quote ---
Regression therapy has its problems of being essentially hypnosis and therefore much of it could be through suggestions. The subject can also bring their own garbage to the session, because of how so few genuine rigorous, self-aware contemplatives there are out there. However, I resorted to regression therapy to get through the recollection of my last lifetime in which I was tortured to death in a Nazi concentration camp. That was maybe 20 years ago. Since then I have deepened my meditation practice and developed far more equanimity than I had in those days.
--- Quote from: Luke Avedon on February 08, 2013, 04:27:09 AM ---
--- Quote ---‘With the breakup of the body, following the exhaustion of life, all feelings, not being delighted in, will become cool right here; mere bodily remains will be left." - SN12.51(1).
--- End quote ---
Stephen La Berge, who has done all this research on lucid dreaming, apparently proved that dream time and real time are exactly the same.
--- End quote ---
Goodness, that has not at all been my experience. The problem with so-called researchers into lucid dreaming, the OOBE, the religious experience, and meditation is most of them do not meditate, nor do any of them bother to check the historic record, or correct the translation of the historic record, if they bother to read it.
--- Quote from: Luke Avedon on February 08, 2013, 04:27:09 AM ---Meaning that dreams which are very very long are really just dreams with lots of different locations and such. If you are in REM for 90 minutes your dream will only last 90 minutes. When I had excellent dream recall I found this to be true.
--- End quote ---
I would not know, because I had no way of measuring REM or my brainwaves while asleep or meditating. However, my full recollection of lifetimes seemed like decades had gone by, when only a night's sleep had, and I suspect the actual event only took seconds, but I do not know.
--- Quote from: Luke Avedon on February 08, 2013, 04:27:09 AM ---If OBE’s and powerful visions, such as reliving an entire past life, are in fact not hallucinations but real. I would imagine that one of the tell tale signs was that they could go on a lot longer than dream time--for example literally reliving an entire lifetime.
Is this actually possible?
I could imagine people easily deluding themselves, as it is easy to only remember disjointed highlights of events--even a lifetimes worth of events.
--- End quote ---
The argument against the religious experience is that it is just a case of mental projection. Arguably people all too easily delude themselves; however, rigorous, self-ware contemplatives do not.
--- Quote from: Luke Avedon on February 08, 2013, 04:27:09 AM ---P.S.
--- Quote ---“, especially if Jesus was a contemplative who was versed in Buddhist thought.”
--- End quote ---
Do you find the evidence for this convincing? I always lumped it together with the “Jesus was a Buddhist monk” theories which seemed to only be sensational television programming.
--- End quote ---
Well, Buddhism 2000 years ago is most probably nothing like Buddhism today. Certainly the Gospels do not say Jesus was a Buddhist, nor does Buddhist literature; however, both the historic and and archaeological record show that Buddhism and Judaism were in Persia for centuries on either side of Jesus' lifetime. Persia was not that far from Judea, so it is reasonable that Jesus could have made the trip. There was surely trade between India, Persia, Rome and Judea at the time. Through trade not only are goods exchanged but so are ideas.
There was an ancient Jewish lifestyle represented by the Nazarite, and there are several references to Nazarites in the Bible. The Nazarite lifestyle described in the Bible indicates that it was monastic. Buddhists are monks, it seems reasonable that the Nazarite lifestyle described in the Bible was directly influenced by Buddhism.
Further there was no town by the name of Nazareth at the time of Jesus. The archaeological record shows that the town that is called Nazareth today was a Roman garrison at the time of Jesus. The lifestyle described in the Gospels for Jesus and John the Baptist is clearly a Nazarite lifestyle. The earliest Christians did not call themselves 'Christian.' They called themselves 'Nazarite.' The Aramaic term for a 'Christian' is 'Nazarite.' The Arabic term for a 'Christian' is 'Nazarite.' I therefore believe that it is reasonable to say that Jesus, his father Joseph and John the Baptist were most likely Nazarites.
Further, the so-called 3 wise men who come to visit Jesus when he was a child are called 'Magi' in the Greek and Aramaic bibles. A Magi is a specific term for a Zoroastrian priest. Zoroastrianism is from Persia. I believe it is therefore reasonable to say there is reasonable evidence that Jesus was influenced by Persia, and therefore by Buddhism.
Jesus was known for brotherly love. The term for brotherly love in Sanskrit is Metra. The personal name for one who would take brotherly love for a life's work would be Maitreya. Therefore I believe it is reasonable that Jesus was aware of the prediction of the next Buddha being the Buddha of brotherly love, who would be called the Maitreya Buddha, and he modeled his mission after the Maitreya Buddha, and he may very well have been enlightened, therefor I take him as the Maitreya Buddha.
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