Depression as an unwholesome state

[Michel]

OK.

Just a final comment. It is good to keep your dog on a leash at first. Then when he's disciplined, you can let him go.

[Jhanon]

I certainly don't mean to say you are wrong. Words are just references, but we all see them a bit different.

Last night I actually did have a craving for ice cream. But my conscience, which is the faculty responsible for higher knowing, said "You are already nourished from your meal. There is no need for ice cream. It is empty." Of course it doesn't actually say this--it just shows it. And so I didn't get the ice cream. In the future, the conscience faculty will mediate even sooner, and sooner, as long as I trust it and allow it's guidance. Some day I will no longer have craving for ice cream. I used to eat it almost everyday.

It's like a child. If it always gets what it wants, it will come to expect it's way. If it is suppressed or repressed by being pushed away, it will become angry and vengeful. But if it kindly shown the consequences of it's action, it will no longer be inclined.

[Jhanon]

OK.

Just a final comment. It is good to keep your dog on a leash at first. Then when he's disciplined, you can let him go.

I see what you are saying. Restraining. In the culture I live in, restraining or preventing force (like of the dog) by simply not allowing it. Repression or suppression would be pushing it into the ground and holding it there.

[Cal]

OK.

Just a final comment. It is good to keep your dog on a leash at first. Then when he's disciplined, you can let him go.

No, not unless you want to stifle progress. You let the dog go, completely. Become aware of what it does, and define it. Then meditate, jhana will purify.

[Cal]

I believe why Jhananada says "...will fall away." "Fall" being the key word. You do not remove anything, jhana does.

[Cal]

Michel, may I be direct with you?

[Michel]

Of course, Cal. Be direct.

[Cal]

"This is doubt"

Through contemplation I would come to this conclusion. The doubt is masked by misunderstanding, responsible action, previous conditioning. I love you Michel as I do every other person here, it's not judgement.

I've heard you say that you do feel a tactile sensation in the hands and feet. Come to a conclusion that this is indeed "doubt" then retreat "into" tactile sensation.

Please note I am no saint or role model. I fail and fall repeatedly at many many things, even this. I am just following intuition.

[Michel]

I love you Michel as I do every other person here, it's not judgement.

There are very few people in the world who have said that about me. Are you sure? Haha.

I've heard you say that you do feel a tactile sensation in the hands and feet. Come to a conclusion that this is indeed "doubt" then retreat "into" tactile sensation.

I don't get what you mean about doubt. I feel tactile tingling sensations in my feet. It progress to pleasurable blissful sensations if I keep my focus there.

[Cal]

I love you Michel as I do every other person here, it's not judgement.

There are very few people in the world who have said that about me. Are you sure? Haha.

Yup, there is an overwhelming sense of "well being" for all of you here.

I love you Michel as I do every other person here, it's not judgement.

There are very few people in the world who have said that about me. Are you sure? Haha.

I've heard you say that you do feel a tactile sensation in the hands and feet. Come to a conclusion that this is indeed "doubt" then retreat "into" tactile sensation.

I don't get what you mean about doubt. I feel tactile tingling sensations in my feet. It progress to pleasurable blissful sensations if I keep my focus there.

What I mean by "This is doubt"- when you spoke of restraining the dog until it was disciplined, you had "doubt" the doubt led to the conclusion of irresponsible action to let an undisciplined dog do as it will. As explained by the aggregates, the space between a thought and conclusion should be filled with a definition. In this case - "This is doubt".

[Michel]

It's like a child. If it always gets what it wants, it will come to expect it's way. If it is suppressed or repressed by being pushed away, it will become angry and vengeful. But if it kindly shown the consequences of it's action, it will no longer be inclined.

I do not feel any anger or vengefulness if I keep my sense cravings in check. Rather I feel like I have control and mastery over myself. There are negative consequences if I fail.

[Jhanananda]

I believe why Jhananada says "...will fall away." "Fall" being the key word. You do not remove anything, jhana does.

Correct.  We just show up for the religious experience, saturate our self in it, over and over again, and eventually the cravings just fall away.  However, we must also discipline the beast, or it will run off and never get trained.

[Michel]

Last night I actually did have a craving for ice cream. But my conscience, which is the faculty responsible for higher knowing, said "You are already nourished from your meal. There is no need for ice cream. It is empty." Of course it doesn't actually say this--it just shows it. And so I didn't get the ice cream. In the future, the conscience faculty will mediate even sooner, and sooner, as long as I trust it and allow it's guidance. Some day I will no longer have craving for ice cream. I used to eat it almost everyday.

It's like a child. If it always gets what it wants, it will come to expect it's way. If it is suppressed or repressed by being pushed away, it will become angry and vengeful. But if it kindly shown the consequences of it's action, it will no longer be inclined.

This is really interesting, Jhanon. Ramana Maharshi seems to partially agree with you. Ramana Maharshi has a different view than the Buddha on dealing with desire. Now we have been discussing how to prevent desire from arising, and that is done by guarding the sense doors. But how does one eradicate desire completely. Ramana Maharshi explains:

"Dealing With Desires

Question : What is the best way of dealing with desires, with a view to getting rid of them — satisfying them or suppressing them?

Ramana Maharshi: If a desire can be got rid of by satisfying it, there will be no harm in satisfying such a desire. But desires generally are not eradicated by satisfaction. Trying to root them out that way is like pouring spirits to quench fire. At the same time, the proper remedy is not forcible suppression, since such repression is bound to react sooner or later into forceful surging up with undesirable consequences. The proper way to get rid of a desire is to find out “Who gets the desire? What is its source?” When this is found, the desire is rooted out and it will never again emerge or grow. Small desires such as the desire to eat, drink and sleep and attend to calls of nature, though these may also be classed among desires, you can safely satisfy. They will not implant vasanas in your mind, necessitating further birth. Those activities are just necessary to carry on life and are not likely to develop or leave behind vasanas or tendencies. As a general rule, therefore, there is no harm in satisfying a desire where the satisfaction will not lead to further desires by creating vasanas in the mind."

[Jhanananda]

Dealing With Desires

Question : What is the best way of dealing with desires, with a view to getting rid of them — satisfying them or suppressing them?

Ramana Maharshi: If a desire can be got rid of by satisfying it, there will be no harm in satisfying such a desire. But desires generally are not eradicated by satisfaction. Trying to root them out that way is like pouring spirits to quench fire. At the same time, the proper remedy is not forcible suppression, since such repression is bound to react sooner or later into forceful surging up with undesirable consequences. The proper way to get rid of a desire is to find out “Who gets the desire? What is its source?” When this is found, the desire is rooted out and it will never again emerge or grow. Small desires such as the desire to eat, drink and sleep and attend to calls of nature, though these may also be classed among desires, you can safely satisfy. They will not implant vasanas in your mind, necessitating further birth. Those activities are just necessary to carry on life and are not likely to develop or leave behind vasanas or tendencies. As a general rule, therefore, there is no harm in satisfying a desire where the satisfaction will not lead to further desires by creating vasanas in the mind."

Thank-you, Michel, for the useful quote. This seems reasonable, except Ramana Maharshi did not apparently understand the significance of saturation in the charisms, which both effaces the identity, and addictions/sins/samskars/hindrances/fetters.  Not surprisingly he was not know for a complete manifestation of the superior fruit (maha-phala).

[Jhanon]

In my experience, traditional yoga asana's perfectly demonstrate how to handle aversion and craving.
You put the body in a pose that is difficult for it. It begins to produce all sorts of distraction and additional pain in effort to get out of the difficulty. But we just "breathe" into the "pain point" IN the body, and suddenly everything loosens up and we flow naturally deeper into the pose.

"Breath" in this sense is the same way that it was meant by the Buddha in Anapanasati sutta. Meaning "spirit" or "spirit body." Specifically in this case of a yoga pose, we mean the inner tactile charism, the "inner body." And Yoga as an entire discipline for enlightenment is about employing this practice in daily life difficulty, no? Which is just utilizing the "breath", the charisms, to train the dog.

A yoga asana routine every morning serves to remind us of this. Instead of the difficulty we sometimes have in seeing craving and aversion, we create the situation and "handle" it many times, first thing in the morning. We show the dog what it's supposed to do. Then we continue employing it into samyama/jhana meditation. We then have a momentum to take us through the rest of the day.