Astral Travelling

[bodhimind]

Hi, I remember that Jhanananda replied about the main difference being ethics when I suggested that the out-of-body-experience in fifth jhana was very similar to the processes that "astral travellers" tended to use. I was wondering though, could these principles from astral travelling also be used from modern context to get one into the fifth jhana?

The reason why I'm so interested in this is that if it is true that many of these astral travellers are already reaching fifth jhana, then all they need is to turn their path towards reaching the higher jhanas, isn't it right?

Here are some excerpts on why I think it is so similar to meditation:

Monroe is credited for having brought to light the term “out-of-body-experience” (short: OBE) with his very popular book “Journeys Out of the Body” that was published in 1971. The technique described in the following has been tested on many individuals and was found to work extraordinarily, as it allowed participants to induce a very powerful out-of-body-experience. Monroe’s technique consists of four different parts, namely “Relaxation”, “State of Vibration”, “Control of Vibrations” and finally “The Separation Process” itself.

And then there was this:

As you become relaxed and start to drift off into sleep hold your mental attention on something, anything, with your eyes closed. Once you can hold the borderland state indefinitely without falling asleep, you have passed the first stage. - Robert Monroe

To me, from a Buddhist context, this sounded exactly like using a meditation object, such as the charism.

All the thoughts and mental images will start to fade away and are being detached (at least in my personal experience) by awkward light-patterns that I recognize here and there in-between the blackness of my closed eyes. For me, the point where I know that I’m mental fully relaxed is where these “awkward light-patterns” start to cease, when there is nothing more than blackness in front of my closed eyes.

This paragraph was so similar to how thoughts and mental objects do fade away in normal meditation when being mindful of the meditation object.

Thirdly, the stage named “Control of Vibrations” has the main objective to utilize the vibrations under conscious control by systematically applying the procedures shown in the following. In order to obtain control over the vibrations, Monroe mentally conducts all the vibrations into his head, pushes them along his body to his arms, legs and toes and then back again to his head. He thereby creates a rhythmical wave that sweeps within (approximately) ten seconds to his toes and takes another five seconds to complete the circuit back to his head. Monroe practices this until the wave of vibration floats through his body on mental command.

This totally sounds like what the tactile charisms would be described as... right? I find that my whole body, though its not really physical, tingling. This would be the fourth jhana, no?

Finally, after having achieved a form of control over the vibrations “The Separation Process” of physical and mental dissociation can begin.

Finally, the out-of-body experience.

*

The thing is that while they are approaching it with a different mindset, it sounds to me like they are going through the process that we go through in meditation as well. Here are some of the other "methods" they use: http://www.planetofsuccess.com/blog/2011/the-best-astral-projection-techniques/

I also find that some of the techniques that they use, such as doing "reality checks" to check if they are asleep when in a non-lucid dream, is a form of mindfulness, isn't it? In a way, they're training themselves to become mindful. This habit of being mindful then appears when they are in the limited form of experiencing the dream reality.

Also, according to this blog, he writes:

Physical plane: The densest of the seven planes; where we presently reside.

Astral plane: The second plane of creation. Its medium is concrete emotional energy. It is where our consciousness is focused between lifetimes and when we're finished with the physical plane.

Causal plane: The third plane of creation. Its medium is concrete intellectual energy.

Akashic plane: The central, neutral plane of creation that interconnects the other six. The distilled knowledge of the universe is recorded there. This is the records generated of everything that happens in the universe as it occurs. The appearance is that all matter and energy have a sort of built-in digital recording device, storing its entire history in a photographic code, but the records are actually windows into the past. The records show events exactly as they were experienced, so the information in them begins raw-it is not clarified, understood, and assimilated until a consciousness takes responsibility for doing so. Once it is fully assimilated, it is stored on the akashic plane.

Mental plane: The fifth plane of creation. Its medium is abstract intellectual energy, emphasizing truth. The infinite soul who incarnated as Lao-tzu taught from this plane.

Messianic plane: The sixth plane of creation. Its medium is abstract emotional energy, emphasizing love. The infinite soul who incarnated as Jesus taught from this plane.

Buddhaic plane: The highest plane of creation. Its medium is pure or abstract kinetic energy. We experience the buddhaic plane just before fully refocusing our awareness in the Tao. The infinite soul who incarnated as Buddha taught from this plane.

I'm not sure, but if the above is written in such a way, they might have also realized there are different stages of jhana upwards from the fifth, such as the jhana of infinite consciousness, and beyond.

It gets me quite excited because it does seem as if the spiritual seekers outside the context of Buddhism, even though they are not guided, are able to find their way into such a state.

Is this bad? Are these things consistent with your experience? Can an astral traveller become enlightened?

I'd love to know the GWV's take on it.

The thing with astral travellers is that these people are often also so driven about it that once they've experienced it, they go back again and again and it becomes a part of their life. As such they also have a huge source of "personal experiences" and case studies. They also describe the experiences of charisms such as experiencing the high pitched tinnitus sound, seeing streaks of light, the full-body tingling, etc.

[Jhanananda]

Hi, I remember that Jhanananda replied about the main difference being ethics when I suggested that the out-of-body-experience in fifth jhana was very similar to the processes that "astral travellers" tended to use. I was wondering though, could these principles from astral travelling also be used from modern context to get one into the fifth jhana?

First, there is no 5th, 6th, 7th or 8th jhana.  There are only 4 jhanas.  Everyone who claims there are more jhanas is not speaking the Buddha dhamma.  The upper 4 stages of samadhi are described in the suttas with a common suffix, which was 'ayatana.'

However, yes there are common themes in some of the OOBE schools and Buddhism, because they borrowed heavily from Buddhism, but did not give Buddhism credit, and they left important content out.

The reason why I'm so interested in this is that if it is true that many of these astral travellers are already reaching fifth jhana, then all they need is to turn their path towards reaching the higher jhanas, isn't it right?

No, because if you read MN 26 and 36, then you will find that Siddhartha Gautama had practiced the OOBEs attaining all 4 of the immaterial domains; however, he stated that he was still not liberated, then he turned his attention to the 4 jhanas, and after traversing them, he realized the 4 jhanas were the path to liberation.

Monroe is credited for having brought to light the term “out-of-body-experience” (short: OBE) with his very popular book “Journeys Out of the Body” that was published in 1971. The technique described in the following has been tested on many individuals and was found to work extraordinarily, as it allowed participants to induce a very powerful out-of-body-experience. Monroe’s technique consists of four different parts, namely “Relaxation”, “State of Vibration”, “Control of Vibrations” and finally “The Separation Process” itself.

If you read this article that I wrote some years ago, The Proto-Contemplative Life, Lucid Dreams and Out-of-Body Travel, then you will find I read Robert Monroe's book “Journeys Out of the Body” more than 40 years ago and found it useful then.

As you become relaxed and start to drift off into sleep hold your mental attention on something, anything, with your eyes closed. Once you can hold the borderland state indefinitely without falling asleep, you have passed the first stage. - Robert Monroe

Yes, this is meditation.

To me, from a Buddhist context, this sounded exactly like using a meditation object, such as the charism.

No, using the charism as a meditation object is beyond any other meditation object, because when the charisms arise, then one is no longer practicing a meditation technique.  One is now having a religious experience (samadhi).

All the thoughts and mental images will start to fade away and are being detached (at least in my personal experience) by awkward light-patterns that I recognize here and there in-between the blackness of my closed eyes. For me, the point where I know that I’m mental fully relaxed is where these “awkward light-patterns” start to cease, when there is nothing more than blackness in front of my closed eyes.

When the thoughts and mental images fade away, then one has arrived at the 2nd jhana

Thirdly, the stage named “Control of Vibrations” has the main objective to utilize the vibrations under conscious control by systematically applying the procedures shown in the following. In order to obtain control over the vibrations, Monroe mentally conducts all the vibrations into his head, pushes them along his body to his arms, legs and toes and then back again to his head. He thereby creates a rhythmical wave that sweeps within (approximately) ten seconds to his toes and takes another five seconds to complete the circuit back to his head. Monroe practices this until the wave of vibration floats through his body on mental command.

The Vibrations here are the tactile charism. However, here is where we depart.  Monroe believes it is necessary to "control" the Vibrations; whereas, I find any attempt to control the religious experience (samadhi) is counter productive; because one must shed the cognitive processes to gain from the religious experience.

The thing is that while they are approaching it with a different mindset, it sounds to me like they are going through the process that we go through in meditation as well. Here are some of the other "methods" they use: http://www.planetofsuccess.com/blog/2011/the-best-astral-projection-techniques/

I also find that some of the techniques that they use, such as doing "reality checks" to check if they are asleep when in a non-lucid dream, is a form of mindfulness, isn't it? In a way, they're training themselves to become mindful. This habit of being mindful then appears when they are in the limited form of experiencing the dream reality.

I have seen "reality checks" used.  It can be mindfulness, or it can be just too cognitive.  It just depends how it is done.

Physical plane: The densest of the seven planes; where we presently reside.

Astral plane: The second plane of creation. Its medium is concrete emotional energy. It is where our consciousness is focused between lifetimes and when we're finished with the physical plane.

Causal plane: The third plane of creation. Its medium is concrete intellectual energy.

Akashic plane: The central, neutral plane of creation that interconnects the other six. The distilled knowledge of the universe is recorded there. This is the records generated of everything that happens in the universe as it occurs. The appearance is that all matter and energy have a sort of built-in digital recording device, storing its entire history in a photographic code, but the records are actually windows into the past. The records show events exactly as they were experienced, so the information in them begins raw-it is not clarified, understood, and assimilated until a consciousness takes responsibility for doing so. Once it is fully assimilated, it is stored on the akashic plane.

Mental plane: The fifth plane of creation. Its medium is abstract intellectual energy, emphasizing truth. The infinite soul who incarnated as Lao-tzu taught from this plane.

Messianic plane: The sixth plane of creation. Its medium is abstract emotional energy, emphasizing love. The infinite soul who incarnated as Jesus taught from this plane.

Buddhaic plane: The highest plane of creation. Its medium is pure or abstract kinetic energy. We experience the buddhaic plane just before fully refocusing our awareness in the Tao. The infinite soul who incarnated as Buddha taught from this plane.

I am not sure who this is from, but it is right out of Theosophy, which stole it from Buddhism, and botched it.

I'm not sure, but if the above is written in such a way, they might have also realized there are different stages of jhana upwards from the fifth, such as the jhana of infinite consciousness, and beyond.

It gets me quite excited because it does seem as if the spiritual seekers outside the context of Buddhism, even though they are not guided, are able to find their way into such a state.

Is this bad? Are these things consistent with your experience? Can an astral traveller become enlightened?

I'd love to know the GWV's take on it.

The thing with astral travellers is that these people are often also so driven about it that once they've experienced it, they go back again and again and it becomes a part of their life. As such they also have a huge source of "personal experiences" and case studies. They also describe the experiences of charisms such as experiencing the high pitched tinnitus sound, seeing streaks of light, the full-body tingling, etc.

The fact is most of the OOBE schools acquired their content from Buddhism without giving it credit, but they left out critical components.  The biggest problem with the OOBE schools is they are all in too much of a hurry to get to the OOBE and miss the significance of the 4 jhanas, so they do not get liberated.

I highly recommend that you read the Major Discourse on Heartwood MN-29.

[bodhimind]

First, there is no 5th, 6th, 7th or 8th jhana.  There are only 4 jhanas.  Everyone who claims there are more jhanas is not speaking the Buddha dhamma.  The upper 4 stages of samadhi are described in the suttas with a common suffix, which was 'ayatana.'

Oh, now that makes sense. That explains why the Buddha only described the only four jhanas in some of his discourses. To clarify, this means the rupa-jhanas, right?

No, because if you read MN 26 and 36, then you will find that Siddhartha Gautama had practiced the OOBEs attaining all 4 of the immaterial domains; however, he stated that he was still not liberated, then he turned his attention to the 4 jhanas, and after traversing them, he realized the 4 jhanas were the path to liberation.

Thank you for the guidance, I will study those suttas.

If you read this article that I wrote some years ago, The Proto-Contemplative Life, Lucid Dreams and Out-of-Body Travel, then you will find I read Robert Monroe's book “Journeys Out of the Body” more than 40 years ago and found it useful then.

I'm surprised that I haven't seen that article...

It is really interesting that you had lucid dreams in childhood... I also remember having those dreams, but could never 'replicate' them when I grew older. I also tried dream journalling about 2 years  ago. Funny how it was reverse though - I did the Silva Method way back and only came to the literature of astral travel recently.

No, using the charism as a meditation object is beyond any other meditation object, because when the charisms arise, then one is no longer practicing a meditation technique.  One is now having a religious experience (samadhi).

Oh my, I think I've been understanding it wrong the whole time. Thank you for the clarification.

The Vibrations here are the tactile charism. However, here is where we depart.  Monroe believes it is necessary to "control" the Vibrations; whereas, I find any attempt to control the religious experience (samadhi) is counter productive; because one must shed the cognitive processes to gain from the religious experience.

Is it right to just be mindful of the charism? I've tried meditating on the tinnitus-like sound but I'm not exactly sure how much emphasis to place on it.

I am not sure who this is from, but it is right out of Theosophy, which stole it from Buddhism, and botched it.

Then I guess it must be stealing from a thief haha.

The fact is most of the OOBE schools acquired their content from Buddhism without giving it credit, but they left out critical components.  The biggest problem with the OOBE schools is they are all in too much of a hurry to get to the OOBE and miss the significance of the 4 jhanas, so they do not get liberated.

I highly recommend that you read the Major Discourse on Heartwood MN-29.

Thank you for the guidance. I've just read the Heartwood discourse and have received its message. I think I'd been a little foolish in my understanding too. I'll strive hard to be consistent in the four jhanas for now, with goal of the fruits and liberation.

[Jhanananda]

Oh, now that makes sense. That explains why the Buddha only described the only four jhanas in some of his discourses. To clarify, this means the rupa-jhanas, right?

The concept of rupa verses arupa jhana is purely commentarial, and not suttic.  The immaterial domains are the same as 'arupa-jhana' and/or ayatana.

If I get nothing else across to anyone, then I would like to have as many people get that ALL religions are corrupt.  They have ALL corrupted the doctrine of their progenitor, so one will ALWAYS have to got to great lengths to unpack everything written and/or published within a religious, contemplative, and/or mystical context.  My recommendation is essential read only the material that directly comes from a genuine mystic, and dump everything that comes from the devout of mainstream religion.

It is really interesting that you had lucid dreams in childhood... I also remember having those dreams, but could never 'replicate' them when I grew older. I also tried dream journalling about 2 years  ago. Funny how it was reverse though - I did the Silva Method way back and only came to the literature of astral travel recently.

If you read that essay, then you will find that my take on lucid dreaming and the OOBE is that they are Proto-Contemplative

Oh my, I think I've been understanding it wrong the whole time. Thank you for the clarification...
Is it right to just be mindful of the charism? I've tried meditating on the tinnitus-like sound but I'm not exactly sure how much emphasis to place on it.

Well, I am not sure what you mean by "mindful."  So, let me be clear how it works for me, and if it works for me, then it is likely to work for others, including you.  You can find this in: The Degree of “Grip” upon the Meditation Object, which I wrote about 10 years ago.  Basically, before the charisms arise, we must have a gentle grip upon our meditation object so that we will relax to the necessary depth for the charisms to arise.  Then once the charisms arise, then they become our new meditation object, but the grip still has to be gentle.  When the charisms are with us throughout the day, then we keep our attention upon them to keep them with us, so that when we return to meditation later, then the chairsms will be there ready for us to meditate upon.  It is the charism that takes us deeper into the meditation experience by following it to where it takes us.

Thank you for the guidance. I've just read the Heartwood discourse and have received its message. I think I'd been a little foolish in my understanding too. I'll strive hard to be consistent in the four jhanas for now, with goal of the fruits and liberation.

Excellent.  Keep moving forward.