IQ and deep meditation

[JamesC]

Thanks, Cal, the scale upon which your IQ was measured is important to know for relevance.  In the 60's the scale was 155, now it is 200, which shifts up the IQ measurement.  However, if you do not know the scale that your IQ was measured against, and it was measured in the 60s or 70s, then you know the scale was 155.

Ah! That's really interesting. When I was in high school in the 70s I scored 135 on an IQ test. When I entered a graduate philosophy program at 50 years old, I scored 165. I was thinking perhaps one or the other was wrong, or perhaps the one in the 70s was low (or high!) because I was on acid when I took it.

That's a pretty weird intro from me, having just logged in for the first time. I'm browsing at the moment... 

[Jhanananda]

Welcome, JamesC, and thank-you for posting here.  If your IQ is 135 out of 155, and 165 out of 200, then your IQ is in the top 1%, which means that you could join MENSA, if you wanted to.  I look forward to reading what else you have to write here.

[roamer]

I am extremely skeptical of standardized intelligence tests and even more skeptical of a society that seems to worship a sort of mechanized spatial hyper intelligence.    The whole intellectual aspirations of this culture seem to be geared towards conquer and conquest of the world and universe through a mechanistic scientific worldview.  It reeks of a game meant to lure our egos into servitude of the greater venture at large.

That really is the crux of it, intellectual abilities are not valued by themselves but in their ability to serve the vested power interests.  .I don't think there is any conspiracy against mystics other than the fact that the mystics view and insight often go against power structures.

My suspicion about intelligence is that the human is far more innately intelligent than society and cultural conditioning allow expression of.  Deep meditators may find access to hidden and innate intelligence more readily because they have navigated out of such conditioning.  The impulse to begin navigating out of such conditioning is the real origin of this intelligence and for most deep meditators it seems to be just as the buddha described, pain and suffering.  When anybody gets real honest about how they feel and real earnest to look for a way to feel deeply better then they will begin the process of shedding all the layers and getting closer to innate intelligence of mind. 

[Jhanananda]

You make good points, roamer.  However, as I have experienced IQ tests they are more about the ability to solve problems and the exercise of critical thinking, than they are about the ability to mesh culturally. 

And, considering that people are almost always tested for their IQ in this culture, but almost never informed regarding the significance of their IQ; and the war on drugs originated with criminalizing liberals, who happened to have high IQs and good educations; then I am forced to accept that this culture has been in war against its intellectual elite since the 60s.

[roamer]

"However, as I have experienced IQ tests they are more about the ability to solve problems and the exercise of critical thinking, than they are about the ability to mesh culturally.  "

Yes but even the type of critical thinking tested is a reflection of what problems the culture focuses on.  Imagine a buddhist IQ test, differential moral calculus around maximizing happiness of some such would be deemed intelligent, rather than say the ability to spatially manipulate objects in ones mind or some such.

"And, considering that people are almost always tested for their IQ in this culture, but almost never informed regarding the significance of their IQ; and the war on drugs originated with criminalizing liberals, who happened to have high IQs and good educations; then I am forced to accept that this culture has been in war against its intellectual elite since the 60s."


I fully agree, there has been a war against non-elite and non conforming intellectuals since the 1960's.  Such sinister attacks as you hint at don't surprise me.  The universities in the 60's were in my opinion intentionally compromised and subverted to to thwart the threat to power counterculture intellectuals were representing.  But its not just the sixties, probably every major power structure, barring perhaps the occasional benign enlightened kings of old india or something have been more less corrupt, functioning hardly any different than a big male bear killing young male cubs threatening his rule.  Depressing but seems true.

[Jhanananda]

I fully agree, there has been a war against non-elite and non conforming intellectuals since the 1960's.  Such sinister attacks as you hint at don't surprise me.  The universities in the 60's were in my opinion intentionally compromised and subverted to to thwart the threat to power counterculture intellectuals were representing.  But its not just the sixties, probably every major power structure, barring perhaps the occasional benign enlightened kings of old india or something have been more less corrupt, functioning hardly any different than a big male bear killing young male cubs threatening his rule.  Depressing but seems true.

I happen to agree.

[Jhanananda]

In an article Does Giftedness Matter?

...large segments of the gifted and talented community, who already feel as though they have to constantly justify the existence of gifted and talented  programming in school.

"I’m sad because the misconception of giftedness is so rampant.  I’m sad because giftedness continues to be thought of only in terms of education and intellect, when in truth, it has very little to do with education.  It has to do with living and experiencing life more intensely.  It has to do with being wired differently.  Which, trust me, has some great benefits and some great disadvantages." - says Heather Boorman, a writer and licensed clinical social worker.

...the whole concept of giftedness was, from the very beginning of its inception, tied to educational outcomes. When Lewis Terman invented the concept*, he made giftedness synonymous with high IQ scores (on his own test, of course), and linked it to high achievement (genius).

What seems to be going on here (and I document this trend in my book Ungifted), is that a sizable proportion of the gifted and talented community-- mostly clinicians who actually work with such children on a daily basis-- fundamentally conceptualize giftedness as something very different than high achievement, and often also very different from high cognitive ability.


What this particular segment of the gifted and talented community seem to be describing as giftedness-- exquisite sensitivity to the environment-- certainly is a particular dimension of human variation that is important, and most certainly has substantial variation, like the rest of human personality differences.


This contradicts a widespread belief in the gifted and talented community that the higher the IQ, the higher the morality and depth of emotions a child will experience (see here for an example of this meme). I'm not sure how this meme started, or how it could even be true from a face validity perspective. When you look at an IQ test, you see a potpourri of cognitive tests, from reading comprehension to mental rotation to holding various bits of abstract information in one's head and integrating them on the spot. Yes, these skills do a great job of predicting academic achievement. But there is not a single item on an IQ test that measures someone's capacity to "live and experience life more intensely".

[Marcus]

I was given an official psychologist administered IQ test around the age of 13. I wasn't informed of my score except told that it was "near-genius". I later learned that I scored 135, which is consistent with the results I usually get from online tests. I never received the comprehensive breakdown, so I'm not sure what of that is spatial/verbal/etc.

I agree with the premise that those with high IQs are more likely to become mystics. Reading the words of figures like Jesus/Buddha, I'm left thinking that they are obviously extremely intelligent and would score incredibly high on a modern IQ test.

I wonder what life would be like if most people were more intelligent. I admit my sense of morality has been logically reinforced. Karma can very clearly follow from cause and effect and doesn't require much 'faith'. Same for most of the virtues of most religions. With a little empathy, logic and effort, I think most would arrive at the same place as Jesus..at least in a "rule" sense. I still have yet to experience the oneness/non-duality/transcendental or whatever you want to call it that would make these truths more experiential as opposed to deductive.

Unfortunately most use their intelligence to deceive their less intelligent brothers and sisters. This is where it's clear that wisdom and intelligence are different. Using your intelligence in this manner simply opens yourself up to even more intelligent bad actors. Malice is a sucker's game.

[Jhanananda]

I was given an official psychologist administered IQ test around the age of 13. I wasn't informed of my score except told that it was "near-genius". I later learned that I scored 135, which is consistent with the results I usually get from online tests. I never received the comprehensive breakdown, so I'm not sure what of that is spatial/verbal/etc.

Thank-you, Marcus, for providing your IQ to support the strengthening premise that there is a close relationship between IQ and mysticism.

I agree with the premise that those with high IQs are more likely to become mystics. Reading the words of figures like Jesus/Buddha, I'm left thinking that they are obviously extremely intelligent and would score incredibly high on a modern IQ test.

Yes, I am not surprised that you support this premise.

I wonder what life would be like if most people were more intelligent. I admit my sense of morality has been logically reinforced. Karma can very clearly follow from cause and effect and doesn't require much 'faith'. Same for most of the virtues of most religions. With a little empathy, logic and effort, I think most would arrive at the same place as Jesus..at least in a "rule" sense. I still have yet to experience the oneness/non-duality/transcendental or whatever you want to call it that would make these truths more experiential as opposed to deductive. 

Yes, I agree.  Ethics reflects intelligence. As an anthropologist I have had to accept that civilization breeds week fools; whereas, the hunter/gatherer lifestyle breeds genius/athletes.

Unfortunately most use their intelligence to deceive their less intelligent brothers and sisters. This is where it's clear that wisdom and intelligence are different. Using your intelligence in this manner simply opens yourself up to even more intelligent bad actors. Malice is a sucker's game.

Those who choose to harm others are demonstrating a lack of intelligence.

[panegalli]

I don't know my IQ, since I have never been tested by a psychologist or psychometrician, IQ is not a big deal here in Brazil, I don't think I have ever met anyone personally that has taken an IQ test. I've done a Raven progressive matrices IQ test online and got a 120 score, not anywhere near what you guys report here, not really genius level, I hope that doesn't make me unsuited for experience jhana or to progress in the contemplative/mystical path.

[Alexander]

I'm not sure if IQ is exactly the right term, but I definitely think making your way to a place like this, seeing, understanding, and valuing the accounts of mystics, and valuing the premise mysticism presents, is a function of intelligence.

I remember growing up, panegalli, intuitively understanding the premises of mysticism. I would be in the classroom and think to myself, "this is all pretend right?" or "this is like Plato said, we're in the shadow world or the false world, this isn't reality itself" or "as above, so below; just like we can play a virtual reality computer game, so too my existence in this body is the same."

I was constantly trying to find someone who perceived things in the way I did (I particularly hoped for an attractive young lady to think the same haha) but I found no one shared my views.

I remember when I studied philosophy in college, how far it went off-topic. In an academic setting I don't even know what "philosophy" means. Plato and Socrates were very clear philosophy was a preparation for death, that philosophy purified and elevated the soul, and that the goal of the philosopher was to separate from the corrupt body and to return to Reality.

And don't get me started about religious people haha. It is interesting how universal religion is, that it is inherently human to value it and have a sense of the spiritual. But how it is interpreted is amazing.

I find the symbolism of Christianity very heroic myself. Of Christ, the god-man and Crucified One (as Teresa called him), calling the Christian to forsake the body and embrace the life of the spirit. Yet this call isn't followed by any Christian I know. Particularly here in America Christians are so far removed from the life-negation and self-transcendence of Christ it is astonishing. They do none of the aid to the poor, sick, alienated or imprisoned. I expect most of these Christians will find themselves making their way right back here again.

So, I definitely get what Jeff is getting at when he says "IQ." It is certainly a faculty of intelligence to value these topics and come here. And, the fact your Inner Director brought you here is evidence you have what Jeff describes.

[Jhanananda]

panegalli, I agree with Alexander here.  If you have found yourself here, then by definition you certainly have the IQ necessary to question mainstream thought, and pursue a spiritual life.

[panegalli]

Thank you Jhanananda and Alexander for such kind words