Recovery from psychiatric meds

[Jhanananda]

I recently met Dr. Ibrahim Kreps, a Canadian, who is a psychiatrist, with 37 years of clinical experience, and a contemplative, who considers himself a mystic.  He has come to meet me in Prescott tomorrow, so I plan to speak to him then about the issue of misdiagnosis of mystics, and recovery from psychiatric drugs.

Books by Joel Ibrahim Kreps

The Big Questions (2007)

he Big Questions is a presentation and analysis of a wide array of near-death experience reports organized around the theme of The Big Questions - the Reality of the Soul, the Existence of God, Heaven and Hell, and the Meaning of Life. Supported by parallels in the Muslim Qu'ran, this analysis provides clear-cut convincing answers to many of The Big Questions while leaving other questions open for further research and reflection. If you have ever pondered the mysteries of the Universe, you have every reason to look into this book. Think about it, argue with it, or expand upon it if you wish. And if you haven't thought about these questions yet, it might be time to start!

Snakes and Ladders: Aphorisms for Modern Living (Mar 30, 2006)

Snakes and Ladders is the result of 34 years of psychiatric practice and 30 years on the spiritual path.It is an overview of contemporary society in each of its major dimensions-Psychology,Religion and Spitrituality,Politics,Philosophy,Daily living,Medicine and Law-from a spiritual perspective."In this book Dr. Kreps challenges our most cherished beliefs about the superioriyty of contemporary society.These ideas do not come from New Age fantasy nor from metaphysical speculation but from the nitty-gritty of family life, psychiatric practice and serious spiritual searching.This is a brave offering, grounded in daily life but imbued with other-wordly perspective" -Rolf Fernandes,former Franciscan friar and current teacher of meditation and inter-faith dialogue.

Enlightenment is Not Enough: Dimensions of Spiritual Practice (Jul 1, 2011)

"When I look closely at other peoples' beliefs, especially in the field of religion and spirituality, I realize that they almost invariably come from three sources. 1) Either they were raised with a particular belief system and have never seriously challenged it. For example, they were raised Catholic and they remain Catholic or they were raised in Shia Islam and they remain in Shia Islam until the end of their life, being convinced that this is the best, or the only possible, description of Ultimate Reality. Or 2) they converted and accepted the beliefs of their new found faith in toto. So now they are Wahhabbi Muslims or born-again Christians. Or 3) they have been conditioned by their academic training to think like secular materialists (in the philosophical sense), the primary belief system taught in our schools and universities. Then they believe in nothing and challenge everything except their own conditioning. Each of these three paths contains serious degrees of bias.

This book is not intended for these three categories of people. It is aimed at the thinking person. I, myself, have throughout my path, made every attempt to see through these forms of conditioning. I challenged the belief systems of my Jewish upbringing, such as the exclusionist notion of the Chosen People and the refusal to recognize Jesus, from my earliest years as an independent thinker. After accepting Islam, I investigated carefully every one of its tenets and kept studying other religions all throughout my Islamic experience in order to see what extra understandings I could derive from them. As to the secular, materialistic approach, I never found it either satisfuing or convincing. It invariably seemed narrow and cynical to me. The only aspect of my educational conditioning that I do own is the need to objectively inquire and critically think through. This inquiry is much wider in scope than the contemporary scientific model would allow for.

[Michel]

Interesting fellow. Upon superficial examination, his approach to mysticism, rooted in Sufism, seems to be similar to the GWV's.

When you meet him, could you please ask him if he thinks taking a daily dose of 2.5mg of Olanzapine (antipsychcotic) together with a 100mg dose of Lamotrigine (mood stabilizer) have any affect on one's meditation.

And also, if he were to withdraw one of his patients from these meds how he would go about it. Maybe he knows of a clinic or someone in the Canada who is competent in this matter.

[Michel]

Dr. Kreps has arrived at the interesting conclusion that Islam is a more complete teaching than Buddhism. I haven't unpacked Islam, so I'm not in any position to comment. But it's on my do list.

On a more sectarian plane, I cannot help but reflect on the differences between two great historical figures-the Prophet Muhammad sal and the Buddha. Studying carefully the life of Muhammad, it is clear that he was always a pious and truthful person but not really ambitious in any way I can discern. He was not seeking out Prophethood, or even leadership for that matter. He was a chosen one because of his good character and interpersonal skills .In the case of Buddha, he, neither, appeared to be motivated to leadership. But he was absolutely determined to succeed spiritually. He departed from his family, he strove and strove to the verge of self-destruction until he finally succeeded. Is this not ambition? And does this wilfulness not persist in Buddhism itself right down to modern times. This should give us pause to reflect. This may be the reason why Islam is a more complete teaching. Think about it.

November 2011

Wilfulness is another way of saying desire. I think what Dr. Kreps is trying to get at is that because the Buddha had a great desire to liberation he was somehow less noble than Muhammad who had none. But the Buddha's path is all about the full renunciation of desire. Perhaps submitting to the will of Allah has the same meaning as letting go of desire in Buddhism. So in this respect possibly Buddhism and Islam are similar. You have to have some desire in order to begin the spiritual path.

Full pdf 4 page essay available here: http://www.hakimpublishing.com//documents/Overcoming--Spiritual-Ambition.pdf

[Jhanananda]

I met with Dr Kreps and his wife this afternoon in Prescott.  Sorry, Michel, I did not know of your question at the time, but I sure thought of your aspiration to withdraw from your psychiatric meds, and asked him about it; although I was not aware of what you were taking, nor the dosage.  He seemed to think it was possible and reasonable to withdraw from the meds; however, he also said that when people withdraw from their psychiatric meds they tend to find their psychiatric problems resurfacing.  That seemed like a reasonable response, but he was not considering someone who is a diligent contemplative, and rigorous philosopher as yourself.

Also, yes we discussed various religions, and Buddhism in greater depth.  I would say that his remark that Islam is a more complete teaching than Buddhism might reflect his devotion to his religion, as well as a lack of factual information regarding Buddhism.  Especially because most of what we hear about Buddhism from Buddhists is generally based upon fiction, or profound translation errors.  So, I believe I might have left him with a better idea of Buddhism than he had.

[Michel]

...  he also said that when people withdraw from their psychiatric meds they tend to find their psychiatric problems resurfacing.

That could be a good thing in some cases. I think one should face and resolve one's psychiatric problems without meds. Meds just cover-up symptoms. I would prefer a padded cell
to a chemical straight-jacket if I ever I become psychotic.

... but he was not considering someone who is a diligent contemplative, and rigorous philosopher as yourself.

If we are following the N8P diligently, then then by definition we are contemplative-philosophers, are we not?

Also, yes we discussed various religions, and Buddhism in greater depth.  I would say that his remark that Islam is a more complete teaching than Buddhism might reflect his devotion to his religion, as well as a lack of factual information regarding Buddhism.  Especially because most of what we hear about Buddhism from Buddhists is generally based upon fiction, or profound translation errors.  So, I believe I might have left him with a better idea of Buddhism than he had.

That is good. After having recently finished reading the discourses, I can say with a certain measure of confidence that there is certainly a pile of nonsense about Buddhism, and I'm sure you helped him a great deal towards a better understanding of what the Buddha was teaching in the Pali Canon.

Does Dr. Kreps practice meditation?

[Jhanananda]

That could be a good thing in some cases. I think one should face and resolve one's psychiatric problems without meds. Meds just cover-up symptoms. I would prefer a padded cell to a chemical straight-jacket if I ever I become psychotic.

I could not agree more.

If we are following the N8P diligently, then then by definition we are contemplative-philosophers, are we not?

Correct.

That is good. After having recently finished reading the discourses, I can say with a certain measure of confidence that there is certainly a pile of nonsense about Buddhism, and I'm sure you helped him a great deal towards a better understanding of what the Buddha was teaching in the Pali Canon.

I can only hope so.

Does Dr. Kreps practice meditation?

Yes, he practices something that he believes is meditation; however, it appears to be more devotional than self-awareness.  I helped him here as well.  We will see if my help bares fruit.

[Michel]

Yes, he practices something that he believes is meditation; however, it appears to be more devotional than self-awareness.  I helped him here as well.  We will see if my help bares fruit.

That's unfortunate. All that energy wasted on simple devotion. He's very fortunate to have met you. Maybe it will propel him in the right direction.

Are there any Sufis that you have met or read about that practice anything resembling Right Effort, Right Mindfulness and the eight samadhis or the whole N8P for that matter?

[Jhanananda]

That's unfortunate. All that energy wasted on simple devotion. He's very fortunate to have met you. Maybe it will propel him in the right direction.

We all start from where we are.  If we engage rigorously, then we are applying right effort.  It seems to me that Dr. Kreps has been rigorous.  After all he found the GWV.

Are there any Sufis that you have met or read about that practice anything resembling Right Effort, Right Mindfulness and the eight samadhis or the whole N8P for that matter?

Shams, Jalalu’l-Din Rumi, Ibn Al-Arabi, Kabir, Rabia, and al-Hallaj all seemed to be the real deal.  In fact I highly recommend that any true seeker will read them for inspiration, and guidance.

[Michel]

Shams, Jalalu’l-Din Rumi, Ibn Al-Arabi, Kabir, Rabia, and al-Hallaj all seemed to be the real deal.  In fact I highly recommend that any true seeker will read them for inspiration, and guidance.

I must say that is an impressive list. I'm a little familiar with Rumi. Aside from the Buddha, who would you say in the Buddhist camp are the "real deal? "

[Jhanananda]

The only "real deal" in the Buddhist camp that I have come across is Boddhidharma.  The indicator for me was in his history.  I wondered all over India looking for a dharma center that would accept him, including Nalanda Buddhist University.  He was rejected by all of them.  So, he literally took a slow boat to China, and when he got off he was lionized because he was the only Indian Buddhist in the country.  After about a year he was invited to court to meet the emperor, who had built a bunch of Buddhist monasteries.

There the emperor asked him, "So, I did all of this good work for Buddhism.  I must have acquired lots of merit."

Boddhidharma said, "No merit."

Boddhidharma was banished for the rest of his life to the frontier, and the emperor eventually destroyed all of the Buddhist monasteries that he had built, but left Boddhidharma alone, possibly because he was so far out of sight, that he was out of mind. 

In the 5th century there was a Buddhist monk in Sri Lanka who claimed to be an arahatt.  His discourses centered upon jhana.  The other monks rose up against him, and his followers, burned his monastery down, and killed all of the monks.  Then they published the Vissudhimagga to overshadow the legacy of that monk's work. So, I think it is likely that he was an arahatt

Otherwise, the evidence suggests that Buddhism has been dead for about 2,000 years.

[joelibrahim]

Jeffrey has asked me to post about psychiatric medications.I am a psychiatrist with 44 years of experience in the field.I began my career as a Laing and Cooper anti-psychiatrist using almost no medications for the first few years of my practice.When someone really needed meds I referred them out.Then a schizophrenic lady I was treating taught me a serious lesson.By her good fortune I went away for a summer and her mother took her to another psychiatrist who gave her 5mg. of Stellazine-a medication used a lot a long time ago.When I came back I realized that she had made more progress in the two months I was away than in the three years of multi-modal therapy(individual,group and family) that I had been using to treat her. I have the good fortune of being able to observe reality and not get stuck in ideology-something that has served me well as I progressed through socialism,Marxism and various forms of psychotherapy before embracing the spiritual path.My first spiritual teacher, Pir Vilayat Khan, used to repeat"Break your principles on the rock of Reality".That has become part of my personal credo.
    So the question of continuing or going off meds is a difficult and subtle one and needs to be assessed on a case by case basis.In a nutshell the general rule is the following.Medications don't cure any illnesses in psychiatry.They just control the symptoms.If the symptoms are of a chronic nature they are likely to re-emerge on stopping the meds.If they are needed for an acute crisis and the crisis has resolved itself they may be able to be discontinued but the withdrawal has to be gradual-10% /week say the psychopharmacologists.Often we don't know the result until we begin the withdrawal effort.If the symptoms re-emerge(which is not the same as withdrawal reactions) it is likely you need the meds long-term as if you were a juvenile diabetic who needs his insulin.All of this should be done under the close supervision of a sympathetic and competent psychiatrist.That's a quick resume of the art of psychopharmacology.I hope people find that useful. Namaste.Dr. Ibrahim Kreps

[Jhanananda]

Thank-you, Dr. Ibrahim Kreps, for giving us a very insightful understanding of psychopharmacology that has been tested upon the "rock of reality."  I look forward to reading your contributions to this forum, whenever you are inspired to make them.

One of the problems that my case histories have revealed is the person who learns to meditate deeply is too often misdiagnosed as a paranoid schizophrenic.  So, I greatly appreciate opening dialog with a psychiatrist here.

[Michel]

Hello Dr. Kreps. Welcome to this mystical eclectic circus. Thank-you for telling us about your background in psychopharmacology.

I won't speak on behalf of schizophrenic people. But I had 3 close friends who were diagnosed as schizophrenic. So I'm familiar in this regard.

In my case, I was diagnosed with bipolar disorder back in 1979. I am now 63-years-old. The symptoms of bipolar have been kept in check by a daily maintenance dose of 2.5mg of Olanzapine and 100mg of Lamotrigine.

It is no secret that I have little faith in a psychopharmacological approach for the treatment of bipolar symptoms. I've had all kinds of encounters with the psychiatric community over the years. We have discussed this in detail on this forum.

In effect, I believe that manic "psychosis" can be a vehicle for insights into profound mystical truths broken off the "hard rock of reality." Carl Jung, the founder of analytical psychology, in his concept of "metanoia", believed that, "the process of experiencing a psychotic "break down" and subsequent, positive psychological re-building or "healing" were necessary for the spiritual development of an individual.

Anyways, we discuss and explore this interesting subject in depth here:

Awakening: Bi-Polar, PTSD, ADHD, Anxiety, Healing, Kundalini, Jhana:  http://fruitofthecontemplativelife.org/forum/index.php/topic,592.0.html

The Music of Emily Maguire: http://fruitofthecontemplativelife.org/forum/index.php/topic,579.0.html


PS - It is difficult to taper off Olanzipine since the smallest dose is 2.5mg and it is hard to break into smaller pieces. I can only break into 1/4's. What do you do in this case?

[Michel]

The only "real deal" in the Buddhist camp that I have come across is Boddhidharma.  The indicator for me was in his history.  I wondered all over India looking for a dharma center that would accept him, including Nalanda Buddhist University.  He was rejected by all of them.  So, he literally took a slow boat to China, and when he got off he was lionized because he was the only Indian Buddhist in the country.  After about a year he was invited to court to meet the emperor, who had built a bunch of Buddhist monasteries.

There the emperor asked him, "So, I did all of this good work for Buddhism.  I must have acquired lots of merit."

Boddhidharma said, "No merit."

Boddhidharma was banished for the rest of his life to the frontier, and the emperor eventually destroyed all of the Buddhist monasteries that he had built, but left Boddhidharma alone, possibly because he was so far out of sight, that he was out of mind. 

In the 5th century there was a Buddhist monk in Sri Lanka who claimed to be an arahatt.  His discourses centered upon jhana.  The other monks rose up against him, and his followers, burned his monastery down, and killed all of the monks.  Then they published the Vissudhimagga to overshadow the legacy of that monk's work. So, I think it is likely that he was an arahatt

Otherwise, the evidence suggests that Buddhism has been dead for about 2,000 years.

You would think that the teachings in the Pali Canon would have inspired produced more enlightened mystics. I bet there are some we never heard of. Bodhidharma is the founder of Zen and Kung Foo. Are his teachings as they are presented today of any practical use?

[Jhanananda]

PS - It is difficult to taper off Olanzipine since the smallest dose is 2.5mg and it is hard to break into smaller pieces. I can only break into 1/4's. What do you do in this case?

Perhaps you could purchase a triple beam balance and grind up all your meds down to powder, then administer the dosage you want.

You would think that the teachings in the Pali Canon would have inspired produced more enlightened mystics. I bet there are some we never heard of. Bodhidharma is the founder of Zen and Kung Foo.

As common as literacy is today, it was uncommon only 2 centuries ago.  So, he may not have been literate, or he may not have been literate in Magadhi, which is what the Pali Canon is written in.  So, only those literate in Magadhi would have had access to the original code, and then we have the problem of language shift.  Consequently, there would have been the few who figured it out on their own, and got marginalized for it.

Are his teachings as they are presented today of any practical use?

To the best of my knowledge Bodhidharma left no literature.  If I recall correctly he left 2 disciples behind.  One we never heard from, and the other became the filter through which we learned of Bodhidharma.