Anatta's case history

[Anatta]

It is hard to know when to begin describing one's case history, seeing how the "I", in the grand scheme of everything, doesn't really matter much at all. Yet, for the sake of uncompromising self-reflection, honesty, authentic connection, and growth toward enlightenment, I'll give a go at what may be relevant in the case of this fragment of our consciousness I call "me" in this lifetime, even while I paradoxically struggle to release the attachment to my ego identity.  My chosen pseudonym for this board was chosen as a symbol of how far from that release I am, but also to remind myself that when I talk of "myself" here, it is an allusion.

I could spend much time discussing the details of the lessons and gifts and love from my childhood, but to do so would be to indulge in both self-pity and self-conceit.  Therefore, I'll only mention the themes.  My family, through many generations, has pulled along mindlessly with it the burden of anxiety, abuse, depression, attachment, secrecy, mental illness, crippling self-criticism, addiction, and co-dependency.  Yet, family traits also include intelligence, deep empathy, kindness, insight, creativity, and a desire to serve in the noblest way one can.  In me, these traits that have created challenges and blessings, at times which are one and the same.  The body I am piloting this lifetime is female and currently is 41 years old.  This incarnation’s duty, challenge and joy includes involves a marriage of nearly two decades and two children who are school-aged.

In my early 30’s, I began teaching childbirth education classes and leading women through the childbirth process, which from the beginning has been a spiritual experience, always a vehicle to connection to the present moment at its most intensely human and divine.  My chosen mentor in this calling had lived in a Zen monastery for 10 years.  At the time, I had no real connection to Buddhism or meditation, or was aware that the philosophy I was seeking was guided by its principles.  At some point, I realized that I had been witnessing and instructing breath and body meditation and had deeply experienced its powerful effects.  Books were read, and the label of “Buddhist” was eventually applied to my philosophy and spirituality.  A daily mindfulness meditation practice helped keep my anxiety and ADHD under control, yet the breath and body work, while pleasant and powerful, was at times challenging.  I learned and believed in the mainstream view that thoughts will always arise in meditation, and this was not only okay but to be expected and unavoidable, and the goal was to watch them instead of interact with them.  I changed my birth classes to be meditation-focused outright, and began co-leading a meditation group at a yoga studio with a friend.  I taught what I had learned and what I knew, though it was only the beginning.  I had no idea how much further meditation could take me, until recently.

I met Jhanon (yes, that Jhanon – the one you all know well from the boards) a few months ago, when life had shifted in many ways, cognitively, occupationally, and emotionally.  I’d abandoned the unpredictable hours of birth work as a sacrificial offering to my family members, but also as a clearing away to make room for a career in counseling.  I became a student again, learning the academics of social work, which was shifting my thinking from innately compassionate and giving, to one that was still service-oriented but which saw the deep social problems in our world and inspired anger, self-righteousness, and action against them.  This disturbed me.  Was it possible or desirable to interact nonviolently in this world?  Was I releasing my former innocence and growing stronger, or was I reverting into an angry, hostile person who was only going to add to the world’s problems, as I feared?

Having no intention to “hire” Jhanon, I did recognize in his words the part of me that I missed and had left behind.  We began a modern-day dhamma-sharing type of connection through social media.  Yet, even having not met him in person, I began to seek out his insight and guidance more and more.  And each time we talked, I experienced tingling in my head and a peace in my mind that could be sustained for hours, and eventually, days.  It seemed that even through text interactions, Jhanon’s portal to the divinity of higher planes was somehow opened to my use as well.  I don’t know if it was his level of attainment, his will for my attainment, or our very authentic dhamma and developing friendship connection that made this possible.

Through Jhanon’s guidance, I’ve learned about jhana, and how to access its levels, or at least some of them.  This wasn’t something I knew I needed, but has been the best gift that I could imagine receiving.  It also seems that it was something this body was preparing for, because just days before we began to speak about meditation technique, I’d achieved the second jhana, without yet knowing about its existence. 

After this, things started to happen very fast.  I was regularly reaching new places in meditation that I’d heard about, but didn’t think actually existed.  These experiences included bliss, joy, physical pleasure, deep compassion, visions worldly and other-worldly, insight, a sense of connectedness with every being in our world.  There were also times where my body disappeared, and even my mind.  There were times, too, of staring into an abyss of nothingness and being awed at its vastness and peace.  And there have been moments of equanimity so profoundly comforting that I long for them in my waking life.  Jhanon has always been able to show me where I am on the map, so I don’t feel quite so lost in this new existence.

Back on the ground, my self-righteousness started to fall away and I got my compassionate mojo back, and then some.  I know I still have much to learn and many more steps to take, yet I’m eternally grateful for the

This has developed into a guru-disciple relationship of sorts, which is a very new experience for me.  Yet it goes both ways, as I’ve been able to return guidance back to Jhanon in other areas of his life, or at least hold space for him during his own life’s challenges.  The relationship is physically purely platonic, and will remain so.  Yet, its inherent emotionality is challenging for my husband, who for as much as he is my rock and solid place to land, his nature doesn’t understand the nature of this kind of connection, and feels somehow threatened by it, though he has no reason to be.  Jhanon and I come from different stratas of the fallacies of socially-constructed division, and “people like me” and “people like him” don’t ordinarily interact.  I’m breaking the artificial social code that causes so much suffering, and I’m finally following a divinely inspired authentic moral and spiritual code.  Yet, it is causing others I love to suffer.

I’m finding this journey challenging in ways I never imagined it would be.  Through heightened compassionate abilities and a real, felt connection with all other beings, I can feel their suffering and ignorance, but can also see my actions causing pain.  I’m going past knowing on a cognitive level that any action one takes is bound to be met with judgement and suffering from someone, somewhere, and actually experiencing its heartbreak. 

My intuition tells me that this is exactly why equanimity comes after compassion – it is the only way to survive the deepness of feeling without splintering into an infinite number of heartbroken pieces.  My current practice sees this place on the map, and is looking forward to its arrival, though it can’t know what the actual experience of achieving it will be, or even if it will be achieved in this lifetime.  I watch my mind experience heartbreak over causing others pain, confusion on what is the moral answer when others cannot possibly understand the experience of awakening without themselves awakening, sadness that those I love do not also seek enlightenment and an open heart and mind, worry over seeing the parallel for the entirety of humanity and longing for its salvation through enlightenment, self-judgement for imagining I somehow know what's best for all of humanity anyway, frustration out of grasping for something at all, and ambiguity over all the conflicting emotions.

I'm here to broaden the connection I've accessed with Jhanon to encompass a wider sangha, as well as guidance for this newly-awakened being trying to make sense of a newly-foreign world.

That’s where I’m at.  Thanks for reading.  Likely, I will speak with many words on these boards, as is my nature.

[Jhanananda]

It is hard to know when to begin describing one's case history, seeing how the "I", in the grand scheme of everything, doesn't really matter much at all. Yet, for the sake of uncompromising self-reflection, honesty, authentic connection, and growth toward enlightenment, I'll give a go at what may be relevant in the case of this fragment of our consciousness I call "me" in this lifetime, even while I paradoxically struggle to release the attachment to my ego identity.  My chosen pseudonym for this board was chosen as a symbol of how far from that release I am, but also to remind myself that when I talk of "myself" here, it is an allusion.

It is not surprising that you reference the effacement of the identity; and it is not a coincident that most contemplative literature discusses the same topic, because one of the key characteristics of most of the case histories here is one of loss of identity.

I could spend much time discussing the details of the lessons and gifts and love from my childhood, but to do so would be to indulge in both self-pity and self-conceit.  Therefore, I'll only mention the themes.  My family, through many generations, has pulled along mindlessly with it the burden of anxiety, abuse, depression, attachment, secrecy, mental illness, crippling self-criticism, addiction, and co-dependency. 

I too come from a fairly dysfunctional family system.  It too is a key characteristic here in our case histories.  I believe part of the reason why, is self-awakening requires a high degree of self-awareness, which brings us to attend to our dysfunctional family system, so we tend to be more aware of it, than others.  Also, I have a hypothesis that most family systems are dysfunctional.  It is just the world persists in denial of it.  Whereas, we successful contemplatives overcome our denial systems.

Yet, family traits also include intelligence, deep empathy, kindness, insight, creativity, and a desire to serve in the noblest way one can.  In me, these traits that have created challenges and blessings, at times which are one and the same.  The body I am piloting this lifetime is female and currently is 41 years old.  This incarnation’s duty, challenge and joy includes involves a marriage of nearly two decades and two children who are school-aged.

In my early 30’s, I began teaching childbirth education classes and leading women through the childbirth process, which from the beginning has been a spiritual experience, always a vehicle to connection to the present moment at its most intensely human and divine.  My chosen mentor in this calling had lived in a Zen monastery for 10 years.  At the time, I had no real connection to Buddhism or meditation, or was aware that the philosophy I was seeking was guided by its principles.  At some point, I realized that I had been witnessing and instructing breath and body meditation and had deeply experienced its powerful effects.  Books were read, and the label of “Buddhist” was eventually applied to my philosophy and spirituality.  A daily mindfulness meditation practice helped keep my anxiety and ADHD under control, yet the breath and body work, while pleasant and powerful, was at times challenging.  I learned and believed in the mainstream view that thoughts will always arise in meditation, and this was not only okay but to be expected and unavoidable, and the goal was to watch them instead of interact with them.  I changed my birth classes to be meditation-focused outright, and began co-leading a meditation group at a yoga studio with a friend.  I taught what I had learned and what I knew, though it was only the beginning.  I had no idea how much further meditation could take me, until recently.

I find the Pali Canon does not at all offer a religion; however, it offers a very good description of the contemplative life, and what it leads to.  Thus, for me, the Pali Canon's description of the contemplative life, and what it leads to could be placed within any cultural or religious environment without ever having to reject one's cultural or religious background, nor embrace another.

I met Jhanon (yes, that Jhanon – the one you all know well from the boards) a few months ago,

I believe that you are the second person whom Jhanon has brought here.  I hope you find this community supportive of your spiritual transformation.

when life had shifted in many ways, cognitively, occupationally, and emotionally.  I’d abandoned the unpredictable hours of birth work as a sacrificial offering to my family members, but also as a clearing away to make room for a career in counseling.  I became a student again, learning the academics of social work, which was shifting my thinking from innately compassionate and giving, to one that was still service-oriented but which saw the deep social problems in our world and inspired anger, self-righteousness, and action against them.  This disturbed me.  Was it possible or desirable to interact nonviolently in this world?  Was I releasing my former innocence and growing stronger, or was I reverting into an angry, hostile person who was only going to add to the world’s problems, as I feared?

The self-awareness necessary to have a productive contemplative life certainly takes us through many layers of the self, where we might find some unwholesome behavior lurking under a well-constructed social ego.  We may also become aware of that well-constructed social ego in the rest of the world covering up a fairly dysfunctional, and abusive under-belly.

Having no intention to “hire” Jhanon, I did recognize in his words the part of me that I missed and had left behind.  We began a modern-day dhamma-sharing type of connection through social media.  Yet, even having not met him in person, I began to seek out his insight and guidance more and more.  And each time we talked, I experienced tingling in my head and a peace in my mind that could be sustained for hours, and eventually, days.  It seemed that even through text interactions, Jhanon’s portal to the divinity of higher planes was somehow opened to my use as well.  I don’t know if it was his level of attainment, his will for my attainment, or our very authentic dhamma and developing friendship connection that made this possible.

The Gospels reference transformational experiences of people having just met Jesus, or one of his apostles.  I believe that rapid transformational experience is due to being in the presence of someone who has some genuine attainment. 

A number of the people who have been part of the GWV since its beginning, such as: myself, Michael Hawkins and Sam, have observed the same effect from our teaching of others. 

Sometimes this rapid transformational experience in the presence of someone who has some genuine attainment results in a negative response from those who were not expecting such a profound rapid transformational experience.

Through Jhanon’s guidance, I’ve learned about jhana, and how to access its levels, or at least some of them.  This wasn’t something I knew I needed, but has been the best gift that I could imagine receiving.  It also seems that it was something this body was preparing for, because just days before we began to speak about meditation technique, I’d achieved the second jhana, without yet knowing about its existence. 

After this, things started to happen very fast.  I was regularly reaching new places in meditation that I’d heard about, but didn’t think actually existed.  These experiences included bliss, joy, physical pleasure, deep compassion, visions worldly and other-worldly, insight, a sense of connectedness with every being in our world. 

The second jhana is the doorway into profound experiences of deep meditation, but few ever get there.

There were also times where my body disappeared, and even my mind.  There were times, too, of staring into an abyss of nothingness and being awed at its vastness and peace.  And there have been moments of equanimity so profoundly comforting that I long for them in my waking life.  Jhanon has always been able to show me where I am on the map, so I don’t feel quite so lost in this new existence.

These are certainly deeper levels of the experience of deep meditation, but it is hard to say precisely where you were.  Let us say it was at least the 3rd jhana, and possibly deeper.

Back on the ground, my self-righteousness started to fall away and I got my compassionate mojo back, and then some.  I know I still have much to learn and many more steps to take, yet I’m eternally grateful for the

This has developed into a guru-disciple relationship of sorts, which is a very new experience for me.  Yet it goes both ways, as I’ve been able to return guidance back to Jhanon in other areas of his life, or at least hold space for him during his own life’s challenges.  The relationship is physically purely platonic, and will remain so.  Yet, its inherent emotionality is challenging for my husband, who for as much as he is my rock and solid place to land, his nature doesn’t understand the nature of this kind of connection, and feels somehow threatened by it, though he has no reason to be.  Jhanon and I come from different stratas of the fallacies of socially-constructed division, and “people like me” and “people like him” don’t ordinarily interact.  I’m breaking the artificial social code that causes so much suffering, and I’m finally following a divinely inspired authentic moral and spiritual code.  Yet, it is causing others I love to suffer.

The spiritual guide is one of the most intimate of relationships, which most people cannot understand.  I am reminded here that Shams, Rumi's spiritual guide, was murdered by Rumi's family, because they were afraid of the transformation that Rumi was undergoing under Shams' guidance.  So, it is not surprising that your family will have some problems with our relationship.  So, it will be necessary for you two to conduct yourselves appropriately.  After all, discipline is a critical component of a fruitful spiritual journey.

I’m finding this journey challenging in ways I never imagined it would be.  Through heightened compassionate abilities and a real, felt connection with all other beings, I can feel their suffering and ignorance, but can also see my actions causing pain.  I’m going past knowing on a cognitive level that any action one takes is bound to be met with judgement and suffering from someone, somewhere, and actually experiencing its heartbreak. 

My intuition tells me that this is exactly why equanimity comes after compassion – it is the only way to survive the deepness of feeling without splintering into an infinite number of heartbroken pieces.  My current practice sees this place on the map, and is looking forward to its arrival, though it can’t know what the actual experience of achieving it will be, or even if it will be achieved in this lifetime.  I watch my mind experience heartbreak over causing others pain, confusion on what is the moral answer when others cannot possibly understand the experience of awakening without themselves awakening, sadness that those I love do not also seek enlightenment and an open heart and mind, worry over seeing the parallel for the entirety of humanity and longing for its salvation through enlightenment, self-judgement for imagining I somehow know what's best for all of humanity anyway, frustration out of grasping for something at all, and ambiguity over all the conflicting emotions.

I'm here to broaden the connection I've accessed with Jhanon to encompass a wider sangha, as well as guidance for this newly-awakened being trying to make sense of a newly-foreign world.

That’s where I’m at.  Thanks for reading.  Likely, I will speak with many words on these boards, as is my nature.

Yes, I agree, compassion needs equanimity to keep one from going insane in this world.  One gets equanimity at the 3rd jhana.  So, see if you can deepen your meditation practice so that you are consistent in attaining at least to the level of the 3rd stage.  If you do, then you will have all of the equanimity you need, "tho you walk through the valley of the shadow of death.  You will fear no evil...", because, as Michael Hawkins' recent essay shows, you will be in the presence of the Holy Spirit, and it (she) will hold you up.

[joelibrahim]

Well-written story Anatta.Just two comments for now1)What you report with Jhanon is what I call simply"transmission of states".In fact this occurs all the time but often we are unaware of it.That is we are both transmitters and receptors of spiritual transmissions all the time.2) This is the problem in our work BTW.I am a practicing psychiatrist for over fourty years.We are subject to negative emotional bombardment on a daily basis.In January I attended a Mindfulness seminar with Ronald Siegel in Costa Rica.The seminar was for therapists and since Allah has permitted me to see into peoples spiritual states I can tell you that these therapists were in really bad ones and seemed to be totally unaware of this! They did palpably improve over the week but I was sure they would quickly degrade back to their usual states as soon as thjy restarted their work.It's a problem and the social workers seem to have to deal with the most negative situations.So in the words of our beloved Dylan"He just said 'Good Luck''"PS If you discover any effective ways to deal with this dilemma please share them.I end my workdays with a one-hour sleep followed by prayers and meditation.

[Anatta]

Thank you for your insights, Jhananda. What you have said echoes Jhanon's words to me in the last few days/weeks, which is good validation.

I fear I'm not responding to the quotes in a way that will make my reply easy to read; please forgive me as I work to learn how to use the forum.

t is not surprising that you reference the effacement of the identity; and it is not a coincident that most contemplative literature discusses the same topic, because one of the key characteristics of most of the case histories here is one of loss of identity.

I hadn't realized it until you worded it in this way, but the loss of identity theme may be what is creating some of the connection yet conflicting feelings about Jhanon. I am going to trust that staying "exceedingly upright" and noble, as Jhanon and I hav discussed, will be key while this releasing is taking place.

I too come from a fairly dysfunctional family system.  It too is a key characteristic here in our case histories.  I believe part of the reason why, is self-awakening requires a high degree of self-awareness, which brings us to attend to our dysfunctional family system, so we tend to be more aware of it, than others.  Also, I have a hypothesis that most family systems are dysfunctional.  It is just the world persists in denial of it.  Whereas, we successful contemplatives overcome our denial systems.

Families as innately dysfunctional -- well, this has certainly sparked some contemplation! Even while I'm a mother and a family practitioner, I can see some truth in your words, when viewed from a collective consciousness. I'll watch what that spark of insight develops into.

I find the Pali Canon does not at all offer a religion; however, it offers a very good description of the contemplative life, and what it leads to.  Thus, for me, the Pali Canon's description of the contemplative life, and what it leads to could be placed within any cultural or religious environment without ever having to reject one's cultural or religious background, nor embrace another.

I agree fully.

I believe that you are the second person whom Jhanon has brought here.  I hope you find this community supportive of your spiritual transformation.

Thank you for your well-wishes. Already I feel a safety and non-judgement here, and more head tingling, which I am taking as a positive sign that this forum is one of divine communication. I am grateful to be here.

The self-awareness necessary to have a productive contemplative life certainly takes us through many layers of the self, where we might find some unwholesome behavior lurking under a well-constructed social ego.  We may also become aware of that well-constructed social ego in the rest of the world covering up a fairly dysfunctional, and abusive under-belly.

This is something I am ready to face, though it will take some courage to see it without recreating the negative feelings I've just recently released.

The Gospels reference transformational experiences of people having just met Jesus, or one of his apostles.  I believe that rapid transformational experience is due to being in the presence of someone who has some genuine attainment.  A number of the people who have been part of the GWV since its beginning, such as: myself, Michael Hawkins and Sam, have observed the same effect from our teaching of others. 

I believe this to be accurate for my shared experience with Jhanon. I did not mention that since we started this process over text, we have been in physical proximity twice now...once, when my family had his family over for dinner. The charisms remained at approximately the same level in person as over text, having talked dhamma every day for a few weeks before. I find it interesting that transformational experiences through interaction with attainment can travel through text as well as in person, at least for this particular case. It gives hope that forums such as this can be transformational just as with a personal visit, at least on some cases.

Sometimes this rapid transformational experience in the presence of someone who has some genuine attainment results in a negative response from those who were not expecting such a profound rapid transformational experience.

It has only been very positive for me, but negative for my husband, who said it was the first time he was ever worried in our marriage, as it looked as if I were "looking into the eyes of my soulmate."  I responded with that what was actually happening was him witnessing me interacting purely authentically with someone, which he may have never been witness to before. My husband is not one to be interested in spiritual growth or personal development, so he may just not be ready in this lifetime for this kind of interaction and cannot explain it in any other way. My current thinking is to compromise on what types of interaction Jhanon and I will have, yet not compromise authentic interactio, with my husband, Jhanon, or anybody.

The second jhana is the doorway into profound experiences of deep meditation, but few ever get there.

Thank you. It was a long time coming after practice in the dark for so many years. I did not mention that in waking life I now have constant kundalini sensations throughout my spine, which at times are quite strong. I am not also experiencing pleasurable skin sensations like breezes, goosebumps and rushes of warmth in various areas constantly. It makes mto curious if I am now in the second Jhana whether or not I am meditating? Or perhaps there is another explanation?

These are certainly deeper levels of the experience of deep meditation, but it is hard to say precisely where you were.  Let us say it was at least the 3rd jhana, and possibly deeper.

Thank you for verification that I am progressing. I will go into more thorough explanations of individual experi nces in another comment for posterity of case studies of the mystical experience.

The spiritual guide is one of the most intimate of relationships, which most people cannot understand.  I am reminded here that Shams, Rumi's spiritual guide, was murdered by Rumi's family, because they were afraid of the transformation that Rumi was undergoing under Shams' guidance.  So, it is not surprising that your family will have some problems with our relationship.  So, it will be necessary for you two to conduct yourselves appropriately.  After all, discipline is a critical component of a fruitful spiritual journey.

Jhanon and I discuss this often, and I have been impressed greatly by his resolve to right actions. Noble behavior is on our minds, as is identification with the witness, and remaining "exceedingly upright." He has behaved true to these principles.

I’m finding this journey challenging in ways I never imagined it would be.  Through heightened compassionate abilities and a real, felt connection with all other beings, I can feel their suffering and ignorance, but can also see my actions causing pain.  I’m going past knowing on a cognitive level that any action one takes is bound to be met with judgement and suffering from someone, somewhere, and actually experiencing its heartbreak. 

My intuition tells me that this is exactly why equanimity comes after compassion – it is the only way to survive the deepness of feeling without splintering into an infinite number of heartbroken pieces.  My current practice sees this place on the map, and is looking forward to its arrival, though it can’t know what the actual experience of achieving it will be, or even if it will be achieved in this lifetime.  I watch my mind experience heartbreak over causing others pain, confusion on what is the moral answer when others cannot possibly understand the experience of awakening without themselves awakening, sadness that those I love do not also seek enlightenment and an open heart and mind, worry over seeing the parallel for the entirety of humanity and longing for its salvation through enlightenment, self-judgement for imagining I somehow know what's best for all of humanity anyway, frustration out of grasping for something at all, and ambiguity over all the conflicting emotions.

I'm here to broaden the connection I've accessed with Jhanon to encompass a wider sangha, as well as guidance for this newly-awakened being trying to make sense of a newly-foreign world.

That’s where I’m at.  Thanks for reading.  Likely, I will speak with many words on these boards, as is my nature.

Yes, I agree, compassion needs equanimity to keep one from going insane in this world.  One gets equanimity at the 3rd jhana.  So, see if you can deepen your meditation practice so that you are consistent in attaining at least to the level of the 3rd stage.  If you do, then you will have all of the equanimity you need, "tho you walk through the valley of the shadow of death.  You will fear no evil...", because, as Michael Hawkins' recent essay shows, you will be in the presence of the Holy Spirit, and it (she) will hold you up.

That was solid advice, today, I consciously spent about an hour in third Jhana (or what I felt was third) and did develop more solid equanimity. Will this release some of the bond between Jhanon and I? And if so, would that slow my progress? I do value him deeply and enjoy our connection.

[joelibrahim]

Hello Anatta and Jeffrey.I would like to reiterate something I said to Michel earlier.I have found that the most complete and satisfying way to deal with problems is a bio-psycho-socio-spiritual model.So your issue with Jhanon and your husband by extension falls into the psychological framework i.e. the part that is not a spiritual transmission.In psychotherapy we call that transference.The best way I have found to deal with transference is to be aware of it and not to act on it.Over time it will be integrated and find its place without disrupting your life.If you want to see a film related to this subject you can try "A Dangerous Method" about Jung and a client of his.I think it can constitute a lesson of what NOT to do.The film also contains distortions as I don't believe Jung was as perverse as the director or script-writer is indicating.But most hollywood directors are perverse themselves!

[Anatta]

Hello Anatta and Jeffrey.I would like to reiterate something I said to Michel earlier.I have found that the most complete and satisfying way to deal with problems is a bio-psycho-socio-spiritual model.So your issue with Jhanon and your husband by extension falls into the psychological framework i.e. the part that is not a spiritual transmission.In psychotherapy we call that transference.The best way I have found to deal with transference is to be aware of it and not to act on it.Over time it will be integrated and find its place without disrupting your life.If you want to see a film related to this subject you can try "A Dangerous Method" about Jung and a client of his.I think it can constitute a lesson of what NOT to do.The film also contains distortions as I don't believe Jung was as perverse as the director or script-writer is indicating.But most hollywood directors are perverse themselves!

Hi Joel, and thanks so much for your replies We speak the same academic language, though I don't have 40 years experience with it yet. I'm aware of the phenomena of transference between therapist and client...that makes sense that it would be the same in this type of relationship as well.

Your advice to ignore it and not act on it (I'm assuming you mean sexually or otherwise romantically?) is good and has been my plan from the start and will continue to be. Or did you mean something different? I'll have to check out the movie about Jung. I've been reading and loving stuff on him and some of the other transpersonal theorists/practitioners lately. Actually I'd but the biggest part of the issue in the social part of the model, as it's really more of a problem of person-in-environment. Jhanon or the spiritual teacher role doesn't really "fit" with the suburban life I lead. And therefore, it is misunderstood as inherently sexual or whatever, in my social world. What do you think?

Did I mention I'm working on getting my MSW in my intro? Clinical social work in individual or group settings is the goal, but that may change...and at least mindfulness meditation is something I very much would like to use in practice.

[Jhanananda]

Thank you for your insights, Jhananda. What you have said echoes Jhanon's words to me in the last few days/weeks, which is good validation.

You are welcome

I fear I'm not responding to the quotes in a way that will make my reply easy to read; please forgive me as I work to learn how to use the forum.

I did what I could to fix your response.  You could click the modify" button to see what I did, so that you will know better next time how to construct your responses.  The key is making sure you have (quote author=blah blah) at the beginning and at a the end a (/quote) and put [] instead of () around your quotes.

I hadn't realized it until you worded it in this way, but the loss of identity theme may be what is creating some of the connection yet conflicting feelings about Jhanon. I am going to trust that staying "exceedingly upright" and noble, as Jhanon and I hav discussed, will be key while this releasing is taking place.

Yes, I agree transference (as Dr Kreps used the term) might be due to the loss of self that typically accompanies the experience of deep meditation.  And, the problems with transference require both parties to exercise discipline.

Families as innately dysfunctional -- well, this has certainly sparked some contemplation! Even while I'm a mother and a family practitioner, I can see some truth in your words, when viewed from a collective consciousness. I'll watch what that spark of insight develops into.

If we look at it from the perspective that almost no one is ever enlightened; and every culture has marginalized its mystics; and psychiatry commonly medicates mystics; then we have to assume that what is considered normative behavior is insane; therefore human social interactions must be inherently dysfunctional.

Thank you for your well-wishes. Already I feel a safety and non-judgement here, and more head tingling, which I am taking as a positive sign that this forum is one of divine communication. I am grateful to be here.

That is a good response to this forum.  I expect you will find it a home as many have.

I believe this to be accurate for my shared experience with Jhanon. I did not mention that since we started this process over text, we have been in physical proximity twice now...once, when my family had his family over for dinner. The charisms remained at approximately the same level in person as over text, having talked dhamma every day for a few weeks before. I find it interesting that transformational experiences through interaction with attainment can travel through text as well as in person, at least for this particular case. It gives hope that forums such as this can be transformational just as with a personal visit, at least on some cases.

It has only been very positive for me, but negative for my husband, who said it was the first time he was ever worried in our marriage, as it looked as if I were "looking into the eyes of my soulmate."  I responded with that what was actually happening was him witnessing me interacting purely authentically with someone, which he may have never been witness to before. My husband is not one to be interested in spiritual growth or personal development, so he may just not be ready in this lifetime for this kind of interaction and cannot explain it in any other way. My current thinking is to compromise on what types of interaction Jhanon and I will have, yet not compromise authentic interactio, with my husband, Jhanon, or anybody.

Yes, the transference can happen even with a thought.  It might help with your discipline, and relations at home to keep your physical distance from Jhanon, or anyone in the GWV, with the exception of attending one of our retreats some day.

Thank you. It was a long time coming after practice in the dark for so many years. I did not mention that in waking life I now have constant kundalini sensations throughout my spine, which at times are quite strong. I am not also experiencing pleasurable skin sensations like breezes, goosebumps and rushes of warmth in various areas constantly. It makes mto curious if I am now in the second Jhana whether or not I am meditating? Or perhaps there is another explanation?

We have been using the term 'saturation' to recognize that many of us here get to a point in our contemplative life where the charisms are with us all day long.  If this were the time of the Gospels, then it would be said that we have the holy spirit dwelling in us now.  This is typical of those who master the 3rd stage of deep meditation.

I’m finding this journey challenging in ways I never imagined it would be.  Through heightened compassionate abilities and a real, felt connection with all other beings, I can feel their suffering and ignorance, but can also see my actions causing pain.  I’m going past knowing on a cognitive level that any action one takes is bound to be met with judgement and suffering from someone, somewhere, and actually experiencing its heartbreak. 

My intuition tells me that this is exactly why equanimity comes after compassion – it is the only way to survive the deepness of feeling without splintering into an infinite number of heartbroken pieces.  My current practice sees this place on the map, and is looking forward to its arrival, though it can’t know what the actual experience of achieving it will be, or even if it will be achieved in this lifetime.  I watch my mind experience heartbreak over causing others pain, confusion on what is the moral answer when others cannot possibly understand the experience of awakening without themselves awakening, sadness that those I love do not also seek enlightenment and an open heart and mind, worry over seeing the parallel for the entirety of humanity and longing for its salvation through enlightenment, self-judgement for imagining I somehow know what's best for all of humanity anyway, frustration out of grasping for something at all, and ambiguity over all the conflicting emotions.

The breaking of the heart over and over again reminds me that if one does not weep every day for how corrupt this world is, then one is not enlightened. This phase, without guidance, or the attainment of equanimity typically causes people to go stark raving mad.  So, keep developing your equanimity, and keep in touch.

That was solid advice, today, I consciously spent about an hour in third Jhana (or what I felt was third) and did develop more solid equanimity. Will this release some of the bond between Jhanon and I? And if so, would that slow my progress? I do value him deeply and enjoy our connection.

Equanimity is what is needed to deal with transference.  In equanimity one can deeply feel any emotion, such as gratitude, without feeling the need to make it physical.  So, equanimity will not slow your progress. It will make you move much faster into deeper states, and get more out of them, with minimal trauma.  Good work.

[joelibrahim]

Anatta,I completely agree with Jeffrey about keeping a cautious distance from Jhanon.Although it is a Christian concept,the phenomenon of "temptation" is always lurking in the background.So beware.

[Sam Lim]

The concept of temptation is not exclusive to Christian but to Muslim as well. Known as "fitnah". Why don't we put it as a human thing instead. Why point fingers?

Hi Annata and Joel, welcome to the forum. I would agree that Annata keep the distance physically because that might cause misunderstanding but one should connect spiritually as one can learn and experience a lot.

[Anatta]

The concept of temptation is not exclusive to Christian but to Muslim as well. Known as "fitnah". Why don't we put it as a human thing instead. Why point fingers?

Hi Annata and Joel, welcome to the forum. I would agree that Annata keep the distance physically because that might cause misunderstanding but one should connect spiritually as one can learn and experience a lot.

We've actually already set up some boundaries around contact. I probably should have mentioned that. We will not be in physical proximity, at least for a while, except for the possibility of a meditation group, where I have close friends who will be there and know the situation. My husband is aware of the agreement as well. He had actually come to the decision that he should trust me, as I have always been trustworthy in the past, and admitted it probably is more his problem than mine. However, as an act of goodwill and to respect and nurture his still tender feelings, I let him know of these boundaries I will keep anyway, at least until he feels more stable with the situation. I'm putting a lot of energy into making sure my husband feels deeply loved and appreciated, as he is, but maybe I haven't done as well as I could have in expressing it deeply as I could have over the years.

I agree that spiritual friendship is a huge catalyst for growth, and it feeds me. To risk sounding blunt, since you can't know this about me, I've demonstrated many times in my life that I am able to be close friends with someone without having any kind of physical relationship with them, even if they happen to have a penis. My husband and I have been in a committed, monogomous relationship for 20 years.  However, I do understand that that the energy in this kind of growth period is strong, and can be mistaken for attraction to one individual instead of a wider love for all/"we", while things are new. and you all have experience with this sort of thing well beyond my own. And I greatly appreciate the concern, as I can tell it comes from a place of true caring. So, I thank you very much for listening, and helping me work out the situation.

[Jhanananda]

We've actually already set up some boundaries around contact. I probably should have mentioned that. We will not be in physical proximity, at least for a while, except for the possibility of a meditation group, where I have close friends who will be there and know the situation.

This sounds like a good idea.  I hope your meditation group works out well for all concerned.

I agree that spiritual friendship is a huge catalyst for growth, and it feeds me.

This is why this forum is here, but if one can find spiritual friends (kalyanamitta) where you live, then so much the better.  And, developing that friendship around a meditation group is even better.

[Sam Lim]

I am glad that you have a well balanced mind. The thing about close proximity for me is that others develop a clinging attachment to me. I find that totally unhealthy. Sometimes, I push them away. This is my experience.

[jay.validus]

Hello Anatta,

Thank you for sharing your story.  I enjoyed reading it.  I wish you all the best and hope to enjoy more post from you in the future.

Jay

[Jhanon]

Thank you, Anatta, for taking the time to write your forthcoming introduction to our friends here. Also my thanks for a warm and skillful welcome from everyone. I really appreciate the perspicacious discourse

[Anatta]

About a month ago, I had my first OOBE that was visual, and wasn't just a moment of vertigo or a limb or head "movement" that wasn't movement.  During meditation, I momentarily found myself at a place on a path I regularly jog, near a pizza joint.  Besides that it could be said that jogging is a kind of movement meditation for me where I'm connected in mind-body-breath and experience some charisms, this particular place doesn't hold any special significance for me.  It felt like a dream; however, colors were brighter and the entire experience was more vibrant and had a golden hue.  I could even discern the approximate time of day, because of how shadows were cast from the trees.  The time of day was about the same as was "real time" for my body in meditation.  It only lasted a "blip."  I've had a few other OOBEs since that time.

Then, about a week ago, I was jogging along the same path, the OOBE experience not at all on my mind, nor had it been for quite some time.  Something moving along the asphalt caught my eye.  At first, I assumed it was a blowing leaf, as it was approximately that size and moving in that manner, but when I jogged past it, I noticed there wasn't anything there at all, except for a "shimmer."  It was clear, but looked like someone had dropped a pebble into my consciousness in that spot, and ripples were vibrating from it.  Yet, it was still scampering along.

All of this lasted only about a second in length.  By the time this second was over and I realized I'd seen something significant, I'd run past it, but turned around to see if there was anything in that moment for me.

That's when I realized: the spot of the rippling was in the same place on the path as my OOBE a few weeks previous.  There were the same trees, and the pizza joint.

I'd love to hear any insight into the significance of this time differential between similar experiences.