Karma, Merit & Rebith

[Michel]

One of the more disturbing trends I observed in the Sangha in Sri Lanka was
> the insistence that just about the best thing anyone could do was feed, donate
> money to or otherwise provide services to the monks to support their
> lifestyle...
> I remember a lovely mural depicting the meritorious deeds for the benefit of
> those who could not read...feeding monks , handing over rupees, serving monks
> etc etc..then depictions of the various tortures in hell that awaited those
> who neglected this duty....
> It was actually quite sickening.
> Yes of course this has crept in to sustain the monks in their luxury and
> position at the top of the tree.
> Like any clergy they have their own self interest at heart.

Sounds like a corrupt and manipulative Buddhist clergy. And welcome to the forum, Munirah.

[Jhanananda]

...it is my understanding that when one is able to meditate to the depth of the 4th Jhana, one is able to arrive at insight into the of nature Karma - and acquire "Right View," the first fold of the Noble Eightfold Path.

More than that.  When one masters the 4th stage of deep meditation (jhana) one is free of craving.  Karma is the map of our habitual behavior.  When we learn to meditate deeply, then we shed the habits of the mind.

How do we know karma is real? It is the experience of mystics and those who experience near death who report that while they are out-of-body there are different realms of existence. Why are there animals, humans, devas, ghosts, & hell-beings? If there is rebirth, then why not karma? Well, nobody has ever proved that karma or rebirth are real by scientific means. But mystics apparently know from direct experience. Should we believe them? I think that is not the right question. One should become a mystic and find out through one's own direct experience.

It is the habits of the mind (karma) that drives the cycle of rebirth.  So, free yourself of the habits of the mind (karma), and you free yourself of the compelling force behind the cycle of rebirth.

One of the more disturbing trends I observed in the Sangha in Sri Lanka was the insistence that just about the best thing anyone could do was feed, donate money to or otherwise provide services to the monks to support their lifestyle...

I remember a lovely mural depicting the meritorious deeds for the benefit of those who could not read...feeding monks , handing over rupees, serving monks etc etc..then depictions of the various tortures in hell that awaited those who neglected this duty....

It was actually quite sickening. Yes of course this has crept in to sustain the monks in their luxury and position at the top of the tree. Like any clergy they have their own self interest at heart.

Welcome munirah. All priesthoods are corrupt, when they resort to pretending to be holy, while marginalizing those who meditate deeply.

[bodhimind]

It is the habits of the mind (karma) that drives the cycle of rebirth.  So, free yourself of the habits of the mind (karma), and you free yourself of the compelling force behind the cycle of rebirth.

Is karma caused only by the various habits of the mind? Just trying to understand it properly here.

Does it mean that when you give meritoriously, it is because that puts your mind is a good state and hence this is karma that abolishes karma? So is meditation simply a way of removing all of our mental tendencies and habits, the so-called karma, hence removing ourselves from the propensity to be re-birthed again?

I know the Buddha talked about leading a contemplative lifestyle through the N8P. It does make sense if it was all about trying to remove negative habits and promote positive habits. I'm trying hard to understand how it fits to "one's inherent nature", which is supposedly revealed gradually as one moves into deep levels of jhana.

Would it mean that the enlightened state is the original state, where an enlightened being would already naturally conform to the N8P? Or is it simply a reversal of our negative habits (bad karma), a rehab of sorts, to get us back to the enlightened state? Maybe I'm intellectualizing it too much here.

But from this explanation, I do understand how various habits of one's own mind may cause, for example, a thief to be born poor, or a murderer to be rebirthed with a short life, etc. Does this mean that in the Christian context, where you confess your sins and put them down, it is possible to remove the bad karma from the sins if you lead the right lifestyle then after?

[Jhanananda]

Is karma caused only by the various habits of the mind? Just trying to understand it properly here.

Does it mean that when you give meritoriously, it is because that puts your mind is a good state and hence this is karma that abolishes karma? So is meditation simply a way of removing all of our mental tendencies and habits, the so-called karma, hence removing ourselves from the propensity to be re-birthed again?

The traditional interpretation of karma is based upon actions; however, the mind leads the body into meritorious actions, or evil actions.  Therefore, it is the mind that must be trained properly to seek meritorious actions, while avoiding evil actions.  This training is the fruitful contemplative life, and the N8P is a reasonable description of a fruitful contemplative life.

I know the Buddha talked about leading a contemplative lifestyle through the N8P. It does make sense if it was all about trying to remove negative habits and promote positive habits. I'm trying hard to understand how it fits to "one's inherent nature", which is supposedly revealed gradually as one moves into deep levels of jhana.

Would it mean that the enlightened state is the original state, where an enlightened being would already naturally conform to the N8P? Or is it simply a reversal of our negative habits (bad karma), a rehab of sorts, to get us back to the enlightened state? Maybe I'm intellectualizing it too much here.

I see it as the same thing.  The natural state is one of freedom from addictions and compulsions.  One gets there through leading a fruitful contemplative life.

But from this explanation, I do understand how various habits of one's own mind may cause, for example, a thief to be born poor, or a murderer to be rebirthed with a short life, etc.

The worst thieves and murderers are the wealthy who drive nations into war, just to enrich themselves.

Does this mean that in the Christian context, where you confess your sins and put them down, it is possible to remove the bad karma from the sins if you lead the right lifestyle then after?

I happen to find confession is a good thing, because it forces the person to admit where they were wrong, which I believe is the first step in recovery.  However, I have yet to find any mainstream religion that understands the righteous lifestyle, or the fruitful contemplative life.

[Alexander]

I feel that all people, even the "well-adjusted," spend their lives running from their actions. It is why they are all so afraid of being alone. When you sit with yourself your mind starts to emerge, and you have to face what you really are. So, it is easier to evade and hide.

When you know yourself you have to confront all your karmas. So, you can pay off your karmas in the here and now, through repentance and suffering.

[Michel]

I prefer being alone than with other people. I not trying to be a contrarian. I really enjoy it. It's the only time that I feel at peace. But I would say that most people, not all people, are afraid to be alone.

[Jhanananda]

I feel that all people, even the "well-adjusted," spend their lives running from their actions. It is why they are all so afraid of being alone. When you sit with yourself your mind starts to emerge, and you have to face what you really are. So, it is easier to evade and hide.

When you know yourself you have to confront all your karmas. So, you can pay off your karmas in the here and now, through repentance and suffering.

So, true friend.  Your comment reminded me of the following:

It is no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society.

I prefer being alone than with other people. I not trying to be a contrarian. I really enjoy it. It's the only time that I feel at peace. But I would say that most people, not all people, are afraid to be alone.

I to prefer my solitude.

[Jhanananda]

I looked at the sutta in its original Pali. I could not find the term 'samathavipassanācittassa.'

How come I am not surprised?

So your right, Jhananda. But Bodhi's note is misleading.

Yes, that is the problem with Buddhist priests.  They too often invent the dhamma as they go, or too few of them bother to check the sources of their belief systems.