Fruit of the Contemplative Life
Fruit of the contemplative life: => General Discussion => : DDawson May 05, 2016, 10:31:39 PM
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Hi there,
I'm new and am grateful for the chance to say hello to all of you out there. For me, mediation has allowed me to experience amazing rapture and clarity but also some really dysfunctional mind states. It really has to do with what's going on with my life at the time and how I'm handling it. Given the up and down nature of my experiences with it, I've had my doubts about whether to give advice or not, so keep this in mind when you hear my story. I dabbled in meditation when I just got out of high school and after my brother converted me to Buddhism. This occurred at the tail end of a lengthy bout of questioning the meaning of life. It didn't work well for me, but once and even then I didn't see its significance. Mostly there was no effect and later when I sat at a 3 day retreat and the advice was to sit through the pain I had really negative side effects. It made me tense and short tempered. Not my usual state of mind, so I stopped. I moved to Northern California and years later Abhayagiri monastery showed up in my neighborhood. I began a relationship with them that was at first very rewarding. Their belief is that the heart needs to be cultivated, a teaching that Ajahn Chah received from Ajahn Mun that was pivitol to his success. The place was really fun and heartwarming and at the beginning simple and authentic. I loved to go there and I began meditating again. Along with the meditation I would volunteer and do all kinds of building projects for them and make trails in the forest. They appeared genuinely amazed with my skills and it was nice to know I was appreciated. Again, nothing much was happing with my meditation until one day I saw the abbot, Ajahn Amaro walk in and sit at the head of the group to visit with the people there. He had a flushed face and looked preoccupied with some kind of pleasure. To be honest, it looked almost sexual. It was then that I decided, there must be something to this meditation business. I decided, I wasn't going to look for enlightenment, that being too lofty and out of reach, if at all possible. I was going to change my attitude about life and investigate familiar but rare feelings I've had in my life. So that's what I did. I investigated feelings of gratitude, love, satisfaction, calmness, contentment and anything else I felt I needed to develop to live a happy life. During my mediation, I would pay attention to any feelings of balance and pleasantness. Little by little I zeroed in and began to feel amazing. Waves of pleasure, strange serenity and later, feelings of perfection. The world felt like it did when I was 5 years old. My emotions were coming alive and I felt alive. One of my practices was to ask myself to see things as if I didn't know what they were. To experience them as if for the first time. I could feel a part of my mind blocking a clear and immediate experience. During this whole time, I never told anyone what I was doing because I thought I had abandoned enlightenment and was goofing off, trying to learn how to enjoy life. There were times when my meditations felt almost sexual and I wasn't going to confide in anyone that I was doing that in the Dhamma Hall, so I kept it to myself. Later, the co-abbot arrived. Ajahn Passano. It was time to start planning the Monastery in earnest. I was invited to be on the building committee. I thought we were going to discuss how we were going to build things and stay true to the ideals of fugality that we chanted at Puja, but not the case. Ajahn Passano was a Snob and the committee was a formality. This was going to be his power trip and the architect, who was also a contractor was lining up a lot of business for himself. I decided not to be a part of the building committee. Soon after, I went on a 10 day retreat given by Ajahn Amaro in Santa Rosa. It was here that I was put through the ringer. I had gotten good at finding these perfect feeling and on day one I dove in. At the monastery I meditated a couple of times a week, but here, all day long. The first day, I went into a fevered rapture, It finally occurred to me that I was experiencing one of the Jhana's. Which one? I didn't know. I still don't. I was bothered by what happened and my mind would go back to it, in between Samadhi. I'd think about being contented and easily satisfied, unburedened with duties and frugal in their ways. What did that mean? During walking meditation I experienced a mind state that was more angelic than human. I was amazed but tried to stay calm and balanced, knowing that if I didn't I would fall apart. Day two, I was wearing out and decided to play the if I didn't know what it was what would it be game. I was feeling my foot and asking, how do I know its a foot? What really is a foot? The mental block parted and I could see it was a mental projection. There was no foot. It was a vibration. Its all a game. Identity is just a big game. There is no self. That's when I fell apart. Too much all at once. I wrote a little description of what happened to me on the retreat and it was read at the end. This was also read by the people at the monastery, so I became a star, which I didn't want or capitalize on in any way. One of things I was able to do after that retreat was know who knew and who didn't. Ajahn Amaro was the only other streamwinner at the monastery. They do exist. I wouldn't doubt Ajahn Sumedho is one also. Sadly, most of the rest are deeply ignorant and even corrupt. Ajahn Passano is one of these although he doesn't want to be. Over the next two or three years I tried to find a niche there but couldn't. The place was turning greedy and cultish but I still owe them. Without them, I wouldn't have had this experience.
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Welcome to the pleasure-dome. I think you will like it here.
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Hi there,
I'm new and am grateful for the chance to say hello to all of you out there. For me, mediation has allowed me to experience amazing rapture and clarity but also some really dysfunctional mind states. It really has to do with what's going on with my life at the time and how I'm handling it. Given the up and down nature of my experiences with it, I've had my doubts about whether to give advice or not, so keep this in mind when you hear my story.
Welcome, DDawson, and thank-you for posting something about your contemplative life.
I dabbled in meditation when I just got out of high school and after my brother converted me to Buddhism. This occurred at the tail end of a lengthy bout of questioning the meaning of life. It didn't work well for me, but once and even then I didn't see its significance. Mostly there was no effect and later when I sat at a 3 day retreat and the advice was to sit through the pain I had really negative side effects. It made me tense and short tempered. Not my usual state of mind, so I stopped.
I am not surprised, so I do not recommend meditating past the pain. After all, a major component of the contemplative life is to be mindfully self-aware.
I moved to Northern California and years later Abhayagiri monastery showed up in my neighborhood. I began a relationship with them that was at first very rewarding. Their belief is that the heart needs to be cultivated, a teaching that Ajahn Chah received from Ajahn Mun that was pivitol to his success. The place was really fun and heartwarming and at the beginning simple and authentic. I loved to go there and I began meditating again. Along with the meditation I would volunteer and do all kinds of building projects for them and make trails in the forest. They appeared genuinely amazed with my skills and it was nice to know I was appreciated. Again, nothing much was happing with my meditation until one day I saw the abbot, Ajahn Amaro walk in and sit at the head of the group to visit with the people there. He had a flushed face and looked preoccupied with some kind of pleasure. To be honest, it looked almost sexual. It was then that I decided, there must be something to this meditation business.
I decided, I wasn't going to look for enlightenment, that being too lofty and out of reach, if at all possible. I was going to change my attitude about life and investigate familiar but rare feelings I've had in my life. So that's what I did. I investigated feelings of gratitude, love, satisfaction, calmness, contentment and anything else I felt I needed to develop to live a happy life.
During my mediation, I would pay attention to any feelings of balance and pleasantness. Little by little I zeroed in and began to feel amazing. Waves of pleasure, strange serenity and later, feelings of perfection. The world felt like it did when I was 5 years old. My emotions were coming alive and I felt alive.
One of my practices was to ask myself to see things as if I didn't know what they were. To experience them as if for the first time. I could feel a part of my mind blocking a clear and immediate experience. During this whole time, I never told anyone what I was doing because I thought I had abandoned enlightenment and was goofing off, trying to learn how to enjoy life. There were times when my meditations felt almost sexual and I wasn't going to confide in anyone that I was doing that in the Dhamma Hall, so I kept it to myself.
Later, the co-abbot arrived. Ajahn Passano. It was time to start planning the Monastery in earnest. I was invited to be on the building committee. I thought we were going to discuss how we were going to build things and stay true to the ideals of fugality that we chanted at Puja, but not the case.
Ajahn Passano was a Snob and the committee was a formality. This was going to be his power trip and the architect, who was also a contractor was lining up a lot of business for himself. I decided not to be a part of the building committee.
Soon after, I went on a 10 day retreat given by Ajahn Amaro in Santa Rosa. It was here that I was put through the ringer. I had gotten good at finding these perfect feeling and on day one I dove in.
At the monastery I meditated a couple of times a week, but here, all day long. The first day, I went into a fevered rapture, It finally occurred to me that I was experiencing one of the Jhana's. Which one? I didn't know. I still don't. I was bothered by what happened and my mind would go back to it, in between Samadhi. I'd think about being contented and easily satisfied, unburedened with duties and frugal in their ways. What did that mean?
During walking meditation I experienced a mind state that was more angelic than human. I was amazed but tried to stay calm and balanced, knowing that if I didn't I would fall apart. Day two, I was wearing out and decided to play the if I didn't know what it was what would it be game.
I was feeling my foot and asking, how do I know its a foot? What really is a foot? The mental block parted and I could see it was a mental projection. There was no foot. It was a vibration.
Its all a game. Identity is just a big game. There is no self. That's when I fell apart. Too much all at once.
I wrote a little description of what happened to me on the retreat and it was read at the end. This was also read by the people at the monastery, so I became a star, which I didn't want or capitalize on in any way. One of things I was able to do after that retreat was know who knew and who didn't.
Ajahn Amaro was the only other streamwinner at the monastery. They do exist. I wouldn't doubt Ajahn Sumedho is one also. Sadly, most of the rest are deeply ignorant and even corrupt. Ajahn Passano is one of these although he doesn't want to be. Over the next two or three years I tried to find a niche there but couldn't. The place was turning greedy and cultish but I still owe them. Without them, I wouldn't have had this experience.
Thank-you DDawson, for posting your very honest personal journey. I can see that you naturally fell into a methodology that leads to jhana, which is what brought you here. Please make yourself at home, and I look forward to reading more of what you have to say.
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Thanks, Sam and Jhananda for reading my story and writing back. To be honest, I wish it were better written but It'll do. I think the critical aspect of my experience was opening the heart. That turned my life back then into something magical. It was with the help of the people at the monastery that I was able to do this. It could only have happened in the beginning when the place was sincere and genuine. This open heart allowed me to go exploring with great results. In the end I was able to sense an innocence in all things, that right and wrong is also a mental projection. Good luck everyone, I'm happy to be here visiting with you.
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I am surprised ; you were not vilified. Be sure to come to the GWV summer retreat... Stu
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Well yes, I was vilified. It was for not wanting to help them with their proud and demanding building projects. They thought I had become conceited and proud of myself and was creating discord in the Sangha. I had built the first 5 Kutis and hacked out miles of trails, all as a volunteer so when people saw that I wasn't involved they sensed a problem. The problem was Ajahn Passano, I'm sorry to say. He took it as a power struggle and I was just trying to stay true to what I believed and stay out of it. He used his persuasive skills to turn others to hate me. Although I can't say Abhayagiri is a cult, there were moments when it felt very cultish. When done right, they have a great program.
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Well yes, I was vilified. It was for not wanting to help them with their proud and demanding building projects. They thought I had become conceited and proud of myself and was creating discord in the Sangha. I had built the first 5 Kutis and hacked out miles of trails, all as a volunteer so when people saw that I wasn't involved they sensed a problem.
Funny, I was accused of being conceited and proud of myself by the sangha where I had led the sits, been a board member, and had organized their retreats for years. Clearly those who succeed at deep meditation are not valued in any religion.
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Excellent post. Very inspirational. So interesting to see the same stories over and over again. The good times seemed too good to be true. Sorry it had to end.
Why can't spiritual communities work out? Always some power trip or another.
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The sad part for me was seeing the Buddha's teachings warped. It really can work if done right.
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The sad part for me was seeing the Buddha's teachings warped. It really can work if done right.
From a close study and translation of the Pali Canon suggests to me that Siddhartha Gautama's teachings were being warped by some of his followers while he lived. So, we should consider that this is true for the followers of any spiritual master.
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Yes, I think you're right about that. There are some crazy and humorous stories about the antics of the people the Buddha met and the misunderstandings of his followers. That's where all the oddball rules come from. We're going to have to deal with the same in our modern times. Let's hope we don't lose heart and keep believing that truth matters. Thanks Jhanananda for all your efforts and I love your videos!
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I've googled the place and it seems wonderful. Low population (2010 census of 130 people). Wonderful hilly area.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitchell,_Oregon
Wish I could be there too.
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Yes, I think you're right about that. There are some crazy and humorous stories about the antics of the people the Buddha met and the misunderstandings of his followers. That's where all the oddball rules come from. We're going to have to deal with the same in our modern times. Let's hope we don't lose heart and keep believing that truth matters.
My premise is enlightenment is possible in the here and now for anyone who pursues it correctly. And, we know a tree by its fruit. So, religious leaders who do not understand the superior fruit of the contemplative life, are just frauds. So, do not follow them, if you are interested in enlightenment in the here and now.
Thanks Jhanananda for all your efforts and I love your videos!
I am glad my efforts and the videos are helping you. This forum represents a community who has direct experience with the superior fruit of attainment. Therefore, the pose a much more valuable record than books and videos.
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Hi Sam,
Yes, it is beautiful! A little bit remote though. As you can see the population of the town has dropped quite a bit in the last decade, but at the same time tourism has picked up. People go on bike journey's through the area in the summer and stop in town where they camp out in the park or get a room at the old hotel. There's also an old grocery store and three cafe's among other businesses which makes it a little less inconvenient than being totally remote. There was an old couple living in the house that wanted to stay there when we bought it. We being my mom, brother and me. The rent was $265 a month and we just kept it at that. For five years everything worked with my mom getting 10% interest on her investment with the rent. Then the old man died and his wife moved out, leaving us with an empty house to try and rent or sell. My mom died and I inherited it. This summer I was going to go up and make it more presentable but if GWV can find a use for it, that would be great. By the way, there is also Ochoco National forest close by with trees and free camping.
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If you google 206 Nelson street Mitchell Oregon you will find a picture of the house on a realtor.com listing from when we bought it. It looks a little different now. We put a new green roof on and I had to redo the floor of the porch because it was rotten and sagging. The realtor.com site has the address as 204 Nelson Ave., 5 bedrooms 2 bathrooms. One of the rooms upstairs doesn't have a closet, but I think it could be seen as having 6 bedrooms. It says it was built in 1910 but I think its older than that. It isn't 2 x 4 construction but a older method called board on board. Oddly, the ceiling height upstairs is only around 6 feet, so tall people would have a hard time up there. It's on a double lot with plenty of space but there is another house close by that feels like you're sharing a driveway with but is really Nelson street. The lot takes up part of a hillside with scattered juniper trees that might allow for some walking meditation paths or sitting under the shade of a juniper tree. This part of town is mostly quite but for the cattle guard that makes a noise when people drive over it. The views aren't spectacular but O.K. As I've said before, the town can be lively and cheerful during the summer months, but the house is in a quite corner of town. I hope the picture will give you a better sense of the place.
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Reading the description of the house and the natural surrounding environment I thought to myself, "This is just awesome!!".
I think this could be the beginning of some really, really good things for Jhananda and GWV. I think if we all could chip in some money (myself included) then we could definitely make things go faster/smoother.
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I'm willing to chip in the house, rent free but things can sound better than the really are. Try searching 204 nelson street Mitchell Oregon and you should find a site with the picture of the house. It is far away from Arizona. I hope its not too far away for everyone. I am glad, though, that your interested and I might find a good use for the place.
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Thanks, DDawson, it sounds very nice. I will have to do a lot of work on my van before I will trust it on a long highway trip.
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I'm heading out on my trip north tomorrow and will be in Mitchell on the 25th. I'm curious to see how it has fared the last 2 years since I've been up there. It looks like the house next door was renovated recently and is up for sale. You can see the pictures on Zillow for Mitchell, Oregon. It's address is 208 Nelson street. It appears for this to work, firstly we need to know if this is something we really want and then make plans to budget for a dependable car that can travel over Ochoco pass in the winter. Prineville is a nice town with all the different stores that make shopping easy and cheaper. What I think is nice about this area of Oregon is that its near all kinds of nature, from desert to the cascade's and even though this town is economically depressed, there are wealthier upscale towns nearby, if that's your preference. At least they're close enough to visit. Bend and Sisters for example. Well, we'll see how things unfold.
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Thank-you, DDawson, for your continued interest in me house sitting for you.
I just got my van back on the road yesterday, but it is still quite sick with one or more lazy hydraulic lifters. The plan is with frequent oil changes and engine flushes that the crud that is causing the lifters to malfunction will be flushed out, so they will start working again. However, for now the engine is gutless, and can only be used to drive a few miles around this small town. It also still leaks oil badly, so taking it on a long trip is not likely a wise choice.
So, it does seem time to replace the old van. A tow truck driver who towed my van about 2 months ago told me about a mechanic in the area who has been rehabing Jeep Cherokees with Mercedes diesel engines from the 80s. While that all sounds ancient history it could be the ideal vehicle to negotiate the high mountains of the inter-mountain Southwestern USA, such as Ochoco pass in the winter. And, it will get 45 mpg, so it could make driving long distances affordable; and being diesel means I can make my own fuel for it.
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Hello Jhanananda,
I returned a couple of days ago from my trip north and here are a few impressions I had. Prineville is still a nice town. The drive from Prineville over the pass to Mitchell is very beautiful but for a recent forest fire on the Mitchell side of the pass. The Ochoco national forest wasn't badly damaged and is still inviting with large trees and very green. Mitchell, on the other hand is in a very western desert landscape with picturesque mountains and rock formations. Really, a lot of diversity. The Town of Mitchell is very old and tired looking, which I think attracts the tourists. My personal impression is that it is a nice place to visit, but would I want to live there? I say this because I don't want to lead you into something and feel like I've misled you. While we were there, I met an older German woman and her handyman builder when we stopped to investigate a couple of brightly painted buildings and stunning gardens. A garage in this compound had a sign "art and meditation". I think they were turning it into a meditation hall? Well, whatever, she was definitely into art and the painted hills. Her website is www.paintehillsvacation.com. I was able to put a laminate floor in the living room of my house and plan to do more work there in a couple of weeks, I hope. I might even hire the handyman to paint the outside. With no one living next door and all the other houses nearby empty, It's very quiet and feels like your in the country even though a couple of blocks down the road the town people and tourist are hanging out visiting. A rather striking change. If you look on Mitchell Oregon facebook, you'll find an article about Wheeler county and Mitchell that I thinks was printed in the Atlantic Monthly. This might give you a better sense of the place and if it appears circumstances won't allow you to check out the place this summer, that O.K. These ideas are just possibilities, not obligations.
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Thank-you, DDawson, for posting more about your home in Michell, OR. I have to be realistic about my van. While it continues to improve, it is no where able to make a long trip, and I doubt seriously it ever would without a rebuilt engine, which I think would be a waste of money. So, let us just keep this as an option when a more reliable vehicle comes my way.
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Mitchell, OR is only a couple hours from me Jhananda. Please, if you do decide to come this way, let me know. You're always welcome in my home as well.
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Thank-you, Cal. I would like to visit, to see how it goes there, and to visit you as well, but my health and finances are not good. I plan to look into a local home for the old soon, which would be free to me.
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Here's what I was thinking. To create a welcoming resource center for people who want to delve into meditation and Samadhi in particular. It should be based on the Buddha's noble eightfold path but include everyone. It shouldn't be a financial burden on anyone, therefore we can cobble it together with the resources at hand. Homelessness (camping and being out in nature) should be worked into the program. It's true, some ones got to run this thing, which might be a burden. If this isn't the time or the place, next year I might be able to invite people to a different place I have in mind. I'll try and organize things the best I can. Talk about it at the retreat and see if you can think up a plan. I think Sariputta once had an epiphany that half of the path was associating with the lovely and the Buddha responded it was the whole of the path. I think if we are on our best behavior and give moral and maybe even financial support at times, we can do something good for ourselves and others. Think about it.
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Here's what I was thinking. To create a welcoming resource center for people who want to delve into meditation and Samadhi in particular. It should be based on the Buddha's noble eightfold path but include everyone. It shouldn't be a financial burden on anyone, therefore we can cobble it together with the resources at hand. Homelessness (camping and being out in nature) should be worked into the program.
Yes, I agree, and it has been my work to provide a community space for those who aspire to develop the 8 stages of samadhi, by offering wilderness retreats. It is also a way of making it not a financial burden on anyone, other than the cost of taking time off from work, travel expenses, and investment in camping gear.
It's true, some ones got to run this thing, which might be a burden.
Yes, running the GWV on its slim budget has been quite a burden, but I find retirement boring anyway, and I find dialog with inspired contemplatives a fulfilling occupation in my old age.
If this isn't the time or the place, next year I might be able to invite people to a different place I have in mind. I'll try and organize things the best I can. Talk about it at the retreat and see if you can think up a plan.
Yes, at the GWV retreats we tend to spend some time discussing ways to make the contemplative life workable, and formalizing the GWV.
I think Sariputta once had an epiphany that half of the path was associating with the lovely and the Buddha responded it was the whole of the path. I think if we are on our best behavior and give moral and maybe even financial support at times, we can do something good for ourselves and others. Think about it.
I am not sure what the term the "lovely" is a translation of. I am going to guess that it is an unsuccessful translation of the terms 'jhana,' or 'piti' or 'sukha.' So, I would say associating with those who have become saturated in the 8 stages of samadhi, or becoming saturated in the 8 stages of samadhi is the whole of the path; because the 8th fold of the Noble Eightfold Path is samadhi; and without samadhi there is no liberation (vimokha).
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I hope there will be a time I could attend a retreat with all you guys. This is one of my DESIRE. LOL
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Yes, I would like to see you in person one day, and what better way than have you join us in retreat.
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Hello everyone,
I was surfing the web and noticed that ajahn sona of the birken forest monastery was planning a jhana retreat. I met him a few times when he would come down to Abhayagiri and I think this might indicate a change of attitudes from the Ajahn Chah followers. Jhana was a forbidden topic while I was there even though it was clear they knew what it was. Best wishes to you ajahn sona.