Fruit of the Contemplative Life
Fruit of the contemplative life: => Insight => : Alexander May 30, 2023, 03:36:38 PM
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Arahants
Christ, Siddhartha, Teresa of Avila, John of the Cross,* St. Denis,** Jhanananda, Mohammed, Ramana Maharshi, John the beloved apostle
Nonreturners
Kabir, Gurdjieff,++ St. Francis, Catherine of Siena,*** Rumi, John Climacus, Patanjali, Dante,+ Evelyn Underhill, King Solomon, Nicolas Flamel,++ Henry Suso, the Dalai Lama
Once-returners
Walt Whitman, Carl Jung, Carl Sagan, Gary Weber, Friedrich von Hugel, Lao Tzu, Pythagoras, John the Baptist,+++ Bob Monroe,# Merlin,##, Rabbi Simon,### Yogananda
Notes
*Discoverer of the dark night of the soul.
**Note the inclusion of St. Denis - a forgotten figure - but likely also an historical arahant.
***Catherine of Siena (St. Catherine) moved very far, very fast. If she had lived she would have become an arahant. But she died at 33, in the imitation of Christ. She's like the female equivalent of Christ.
+Dante's visions of the spirit realm, which formed the basis of the Comedy, were primarily the product of intuition.
++Alchemist.
+++Discoverer of the first descent into hell (the "metanoia").
#Note Bob Monroe's facility in the out-of-body experience, but his attainment of only once-returning.
##Lost historical figure.
###Author of the Zohar.
*Website link https://alexanderlorincz.com/index.php/articles/table-of-attainment
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I'm pondering some of the saints of Christianity, for example Augustine and Thomas Aquinas, and trying to see if the Director wants me to place them on the table. It's remaining silent. I never read either in detail as it's clear they aren't mystics. It seems a harsh truth about the reality of our spiritual nature.
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It also appears Socrates achieved immortality as a consequence of obtaining the Form of wisdom, but did not have spiritual attainment outside of this.
It appears Plato comprehended the underlying spiritual structure of the universe, but did not have spiritual attainment outside of this.
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The filmmaker Darren Aronofsky may be a once-returner... though I will not include him on the table as he is not a spiritual teacher. His film The Fountain appears to be a powerful revealed work, similar to The Matrix.
Re: Augustine and Aquinas. Their omission doesn't mean they don't have a heavenly afterlife... however, they will eventually have to be reborn, as opposed to those who achieve nonreturning.
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Hm so Christ and Mohammed had relatively few OOB tier experiences. This is obvious when reading the teachings of both. However it is clear the Buddha was a master of the OOBE, due to the extensive descriptions of the spirit realm in the suttas.
The Maharshi also only had one major OOB experience which we recall from his history. Yet he still achieved self-realization.
There was a poverty of literature on the OOBE until the experiences and writings of Bob Monroe in the US.
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Hm Dante’s visions of the spirit realm, which formed the basis of the Comedy, were primarily the product of intuition. I’m not sure of his experience of the OOBE.
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Hm Catherine of Siena (St. Catherine) moved very far, very fast. If she had lived she would have become an arahant. Ah but she died at 33, in the imitation of Christ. She’s like the female equivalent of Christ.
I can’t believe I missed her. What a remarkable, saintly, superhuman. A true worthy one and mystic. A champion of the race. 😭
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Hm the nonreturners were all geniuses. Absolutely brilliant people.
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Ok there are no streamwinners because streamwinners are knowledge collectors. Once it reaches critical mass, they induce the first descent into hell. If they navigate it they emerge as a once-returner.
Hm Alan Watts was brilliant. And knew a lot. But he never induced the spiritual crisis. He was killed by his unconsciousness.
Edit: He used alcohol to taper off the spiritual crisis until it killed him.
*Knowledge of the spiritual crisis, and its need for development, is essential.
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Hm Mohammed was ignorant of being so he didn’t know Christ’s nature. Ah but he is a prophet, he should know better. Shame on him.
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Hm the Buddha was ignorant of the Mysteries. Including the power of virginity.
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Ok there are no streamwinners because streamwinners are knowledge collectors.
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I tend to agree. First initiation to me is a person who has reached the ability to have regular OOBE and is collecting knowledge in that way. Reaching second initiation of four you enter much deeper cosmic states being and are overcome by the mysterious nature of the Universe. Your sense of self, and time is somewhat effaced by the stunning awe and cosmic majesty of the higher worlds (galaxies and greater stuctures of the cosmos) like Ramana Maharishi.
For Ahahats alive today I would recommend investigating M.P. Singh as Shiva Bala Yogi (who is said to be the reincarnation of Ramakrishna by some psychics) and also Maha Ananda Siddha. They are the ones I personally feel have achieved completion.
-David
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Ok there are no streamwinners because streamwinners are knowledge collectors.
>>>
I tend to agree. First initiation to me is a person who has reached the ability to have regular OOBE and is collecting knowledge in that way. Reaching second initiation of four you enter much deeper cosmic states being and are overcome by the mysterious nature of the Universe. Your sense of self, and time is somewhat effaced by the stunning awe and cosmic majesty of the higher worlds (galaxies and greater stuctures of the cosmos) like Ramana Maharishi.
For Ahahats alive today I would recommend investigating M.P. Singh as Shiva Bala Yogi (who is said to be the reincarnation of Ramakrishna by some psychics) and also Maha Ananda Siddha. They are the ones I personally feel have achieved completion.
-David
Gentle reminder, Dave, to cultivate the power of discernment
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Interesting prologue http://fruitofthecontemplativelife.org/forum/index.php/topic,676.0.html
An old thread made on here 9 years ago
Looks like some wrong IDs
However I did correctly ID Jeff as arahant, Michel as streamwinner, and Von Hugel as a Noble One. So not bad for the time
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*Added Jhanananda and John the Baptist
*Added two new margin notes
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Hm the arahants appear to be ordered in terms of their relative contributions to the species
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I mentioned to Jeff I do believe Vishnu descended in antiquity... but it's so far back it's dating into the realm of mythology
Thus I think it's appropriate to include St. Denis (for whom we do have an historical record - even if it's imperfect), but not Vishnu's avatar
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Hm this is all far more interesting than I ever would have anticipated. It's fascinating to see how it all fits together
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I'm pondering the reference in the suttas to the Buddha's two early teachers who allegedly taught him to navigate the OOBE. So it appears the OOBE is an independently existing practice, and the ladder of ascent (four noble ones) is its own path. They don't necessarily overlap. It's complicated.
I assume the Buddha believed they were intertwined because that was his experience. However, it's clear the other spiritual masters achieved enlightenment without it.
I'm pondering now some of the figures of the OOBE movement, such as Robert Bruce and William Buhlman. So a lot of the saints and astral projectors of history indeed have heavenly afterlifes, but if they don't get on the ladder they eventually have to forget everything and be reborn.
St. Paul it seems the same. I don't think he achieved once-returning or nonreturning. Though his role in the development of Christianity remains essential.
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Von Hugel and Underhill are an interesting pair. It shows what humans can achieve if they are sincere.
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1 Underhill never awakened from the dogmatic slumber. This is what blocked her from enlightenment.
2 Gurdjieff never questioned his selfhood which blocked him from enlightenment.
3 Dante more or less knew everything. A complete vision of the world's spiritual reality. He was extremely close to enlightenment when he passed away.
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I'm pondering some of the saints of Christianity, for example Augustine and Thomas Aquinas, and trying to see if the Director wants me to place them on the table. It's remaining silent. I never read either in detail as it's clear they aren't mystics. It seems a harsh truth about the reality of our spiritual nature.
St Augustine's history is interesting, because he started out as a follower of Manachism, which makes him originally an Arian Christian. He; however, renounced his association with Manachism and Arianism, or none of us would have ever heard of him. So, I have chosen not to spend much time studying him, because of his preponderance of rationalism and lack of mysticism.
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It also appears Socrates achieved immortality as a consequence of obtaining the Form of wisdom, but did not have spiritual attainment outside of this.
It appears Plato comprehended the underlying spiritual structure of the universe, but did not have spiritual attainment outside of this.
Since Socrates was only documented by Plato, then we cannot be sure if he was a fictional character cooked up by Plato; nonetheless, the Socrates clearly manifest many of the features and dialog of a genuine mystic. The fact that he is described to have been going into trances, and went willingly to his death, suggest he was an arahant. The real issue revealed in Plato's writing, and that of other Greek philosophers is they did not seem to have a grasp of a formal meditation practice, but their discussion of the virtues, which are identical to the "fruits of Spirit" and some of the "fruit of the mendicant life" (samanaphala) suggests there was at least shared concepts throughout Eurasia.
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Ok there are no streamwinners because streamwinners are knowledge collectors. Once it reaches critical mass, they induce the first descent into hell. If they navigate it they emerge as a once-returner.
Hm Alan Watts was brilliant. And knew a lot. But he never induced the spiritual crisis. He was killed by his unconsciousness.
Edit: He used alcohol to taper off the spiritual crisis until it killed him.
*Knowledge of the spiritual crisis, and its need for development, is essential.
I really don't understand the appeal of Alan Watts, because in his own admission he never practiced meditation and yet he is known most for his discourses on Buddhism, so he was only following a subset of the Noble Eightfold Path, meaning he was only for the naive, and not for those who meditate deeply.
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Hm Mohammed was ignorant of being so he didn’t know Christ’s nature. Ah but he is a prophet, he should know better. Shame on him.
We have to keep in mind that Mohammed wrote nothing, but the Koran is supposedly a collection of his speech during his trances. When the koran was rolled out by Abu Bakker there was a lot of debate over the authenticity of the Koran, and why some other material wasn't included, which became the Hadith. Also, his inclusion of the 8 gates of Islam, which linguistically are associated with the term 'jhana' suggests to me that Mohammed might very well have been the real deal, but just like Jesus and Siddhartha Gautama, his and their message has been deeply corrupted by subsequent corrupt priesthoods.
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Hm the Buddha was ignorant of the Mysteries. Including the power of virginity.
I don't see this as true at all. In fact the fruit of the mendicant life (samanaphala) are the earliest and most complete discussion of mysticism (aka Mysteries)
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I'm pretty sure I read most, if not all, of Underhill's books, and I came away from her writing with the opinion that she did not understand mysticism at all. Her writing was more a comprehensive documentation of every Catholic saint with a reputation of mysticism.
The argument that psychologists such as: Freud and William James, make is mysticism is the product of belief psychosis. Later neurologists and neurosurgeons have argued that mysticism is the product of neurological damage, strokes and brain tumors. My take on the many so-called mystics that Underhill documented is 90% probably did suffer from profound: belief psychosis, neurological damage, strokes and/or brain tumors. However, 10% of those mystics clearly had genuine mystical attainment, such as: Teresa of Avial and John of the Cross.
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I'm pondering the reference in the suttas to the Buddha's two early teachers who allegedly taught him to navigate the OOBE. So it appears the OOBE is an independently existing practice, and the ladder of ascent (four noble ones) is its own path. They don't necessarily overlap. It's complicated.
I assume the Buddha believed they were intertwined because that was his experience. However, it's clear the other spiritual masters achieved enlightenment without it.
I'm pondering now some of the figures of the OOBE movement, such as Robert Bruce and William Buhlman. So a lot of the saints and astral projectors of history indeed have heavenly afterlifes, but if they don't get on the ladder they eventually have to forget everything and be reborn.
St. Paul it seems the same. I don't think he achieved once-returning or nonreturning. Though his role in the development of Christianity remains essential.
What I get out of my study of the suttas is one of many of Siddhartha's insights is the 4 material states of samadhi known in the suttas as jhana are to be understood as essential and foundational, which the OOBE movement has completely ignored in their rush to develop the OOBE.
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(...) So, I have chosen not to spend much time studying [Augustine], because of his preponderance of rationalism and lack of mysticism.
Agreed
Since Socrates was only documented by Plato, then we cannot be sure if he was a fictional character cooked up by Plato; nonetheless, the Socrates clearly manifest many of the features and dialog of a genuine mystic. The fact that he is described to have been going into trances, and went willingly to his death, suggest he was an arahant.
It appears immortality is possible through three methods: (1) perfection (lionhood), (2) the Form of wisdom, and (3) attainment (nonreturning or arahantship).
This conclusion is a product of revelation, so ponder/grapple with it as you will. But, it makes the world much more complicated.
Based on the above, Socrates achieved immortality as a result of achieving the Form, but outside of this was neither a nonreturner nor an arahant.
The real issue revealed in Plato's writing, and that of other Greek philosophers is they did not seem to have a grasp of a formal meditation practice, but their discussion of the virtues, which are identical to the "fruits of Spirit" and some of the "fruit of the mendicant life" (samanaphala) suggests there was at least shared concepts throughout Eurasia.
Agree with all of this
Buddhism and the Greek philosophers are a kind of "yin and yang" of the sacred. The Buddhists focused on attainment, the Greeks on wisdom
I really don't understand the appeal of Alan Watts, because in his own admission he never practiced meditation and yet he is known most for his discourses on Buddhism, so he was only following a subset of the Noble Eightfold Path, meaning he was only for the naive, and not for those who meditate deeply.
I think it's a real tragedy what happened with him. He had enormous potential. He should be on the table as one of the once-returners. But he denied and fled his whole life from the spiritual crisis.
I would argue this is one of the weaknesses of Buddhism. It doesn't describe the descent into hell. Thus because he limited himself to only one tradition, he viewed the calling to descend as a pathology. He constantly ran away from it. So I think it's a tragic tale of lost potential.
I don't see this as true at all. In fact the fruit of the mendicant life (samanaphala) are the earliest and most complete discussion of mysticism (aka Mysteries)
I'd identify the primary Mysteries as:
The first descent into hell (the "metanoia")
The second descent into hell (the "dark night of the soul")
There are indirect references to these in Buddhism, but they do not appear to be consciously articulated
We have to keep in mind that Mohammed wrote nothing, but the Koran is supposedly a collection of his speech during his trances. When the koran was rolled out by Abu Bakker there was a lot of debate over the authenticity of the Koran, and why some other material wasn't included, which became the Hadith. Also, his inclusion of the 8 gates of Islam, which linguistically are associated with the term 'jhana' suggests to me that Mohammed might very well have been the real deal, but just like Jesus and Siddhartha Gautama, his and their message has been deeply corrupted by subsequent corrupt priesthoods.
You know he's the elephant in the room. We speak very little about Mohammed. I'm not disputing his attainment. But it is what it is.
I'm pretty sure I read most, if not all, of Underhill's books, and I came away from her writing with the opinion that she did not understand mysticism at all. Her writing was more a comprehensive documentation of every Catholic saint with a reputation of mysticism.
I recommend perusing this one. It may alter your judgment of her attainment: https://www.ccel.org/ccel/underhill/mysticism.html
What I get out of my study of the suttas is one of many of Siddhartha's insights is the 4 material states of samadhi known in the suttas as jhana are to be understood as essential and foundational, which the OOBE movement has completely ignored in their rush to develop the OOBE.
Agreed wholly here
The OOB movement is missing the forest for the trees. The experience has a role, but should be integrated into a holistic spiritual philosophy
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Hm I would have assumed Ouspensky ended at once-returner but the Director’s not having me add him. I’ll keep contemplating it
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Hm
Peter Demianovich Ouspensky was a Russian philosopher and esotericist who gained recognition for his work on spiritual and philosophical teachings, particularly his association with the ideas of George Gurdjieff. After moving to England in 1919, Ouspensky continued to explore and develop his ideas while also encountering personal challenges and conflicts.
In England, Ouspensky established himself as a prominent figure in the intellectual and spiritual circles of the time. He founded the "Theosophical Society for Psychical Research" in London, where he gave lectures and held meetings to discuss his philosophical concepts. His teachings centered around the exploration of human consciousness, self-awareness, and the potential for spiritual development.
During this period, Ouspensky continued to work closely with Gurdjieff, a spiritual teacher who had a significant influence on his thinking. Ouspensky became an advocate for Gurdjieff's ideas, particularly the notion of self-observation and the pursuit of higher states of consciousness. However, their relationship eventually soured, and Ouspensky parted ways with Gurdjieff in 1924 due to differences in approach and personal conflicts.
Following his separation from Gurdjieff, Ouspensky went on to establish his own independent school, known as the "Institute for the Harmonious Development of Man." The school attracted a considerable following and became a hub for individuals interested in Ouspensky's teachings. He continued to lecture and write extensively, sharing his philosophical ideas and engaging with students and readers.
Throughout his life, Ouspensky grappled with personal crises and conflicts. He was known to be introspective and deeply concerned with the existential questions of human existence. His writings often explored the themes of self-identity, the nature of reality, and the search for meaning. Ouspensky's personal struggles and contemplations were reflected in his philosophical works, such as "The Psychology of Man's Possible Evolution" and "In Search of the Miraculous."
Ouspensky's later years were marked by health issues and a decline in his physical well-being. He suffered a severe heart attack in 1947 and experienced subsequent health complications. Despite his declining health, he continued to work on his writings and engage with students until his death.
On October 2, 1947, Ouspensky passed away in Lyne Place, Surrey, England, at the age of 67. His legacy lived on through his writings, which continue to inspire and influence individuals interested in philosophy, spirituality, and self-development. Ouspensky's ideas have had a lasting impact, with his work serving as a foundation for the exploration of consciousness and human potential.(ChatGPT)
His two books were excellent (In Search of the Miraculous and Psychology of Man’s Possible Evolution). The falling out with Gurdjieff is questionable and perhaps more significant than I thought. Gurdjieff may have been a vehicle for Ouspensky to raise his level of attainment. Alienated from him, he may not have been able to work on his own.
Gurdjieff was a bear and Ouspensky was a bird; so, Ouspensky did not raise his level of being to one of the wise animals, such as crow or owl.
He may never have gone through the first descent into hell (I’m surprised by this and always assumed he had) and thus died as a streamwinner. Unfortunate.
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Birth brings complete forgetfulness, so whatever esoteric knowledge was acquired in one life is not carried over. However, death as a streamwinner means the desire to seek higher knowledge (ie, knowledge pertaining to the path to liberation) is inherited. Thus one often begins seeking higher knowledge immediately or early in life, and increasingly gains the potential to reach “critical mass” in said knowledge, inducing the crisis that brings on the transformation into once-returning.
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Gurdjieff and Ouspensky discovered many things, and developed an extremely unique system for self-development. I assume much of the Gurdjieff teaching was a product of revelation, though Gurdjieff also traveled and read widely himself.
In ordinary life we meet only these three categories of man. Each one of us and everyone we know is either no. 1, no. 2, or no. 3. There are higher categories of man, but men are not born already belonging to these higher categories. They are all born no. 1, no. 2, and no. 3, and can reach higher categories only through schools.
Man no. 4 is not born as such. He is a product of school culture. He differs from man no. 1, no. 2, and no. 3, by his knowledge of himself, by his understanding of his position, and, as it is expressed technically, by his having acquired a permanent center of gravity. This last means that the idea of acquiring unity, consciousness, permanent 'I,' and will—that is, the idea of his development—has already become for him more important than his other interests.
It must be added to the characteristics of man no. 4, that his functions and centers are more balanced, in a way in which they could not be balanced without work on himself, according to school principles and methods.
Man no. 5 is a man who has acquired unity and self-consciousness. He is different from ordinary man, because in him, one of the higher centers already works, and he has many functions and powers that ordinary man—that is, man no. 1, 2, and 3—does not possess.
Man no. 6 is a man who has acquired objective consciousness. Another higher center works in him. He possesses many more new faculties and powers, beyond the understanding of an ordinary man.
Man no. 7 is a man who has attained all that a man can attain. He has a permanent 'I' and free will. He can control all the states of consciousness in himself and he already cannot lose anything he has acquired. According to another description, he is immortal within the limits of the solar system. (The Psychology of Man's Possible Evolution)
I’ve posted this before but it’s good to reiterate. You can see it’s a different articulation of the stages of streamwinner, once-returner, nonreturner, and arahant observable in Buddhism.
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Hm this may be a very transformative time
Lesley, Sydney, Alexandra (?), Tad, bodhi, Michael, Rougeleader- all potential arahants
Plus whatever nonreturners we can make 🤔
One day at a time 🎈👍
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*Added Lao Tzu as once-returner