Fruit of the Contemplative Life
Fruit of the contemplative life: => Samadhi => : Tad March 21, 2024, 02:02:03 AM
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Hello dear friends,
Jhana has been discussed quite in depth on this forum and is probably the focal topic. This time I wanted to ask about how you view jhana from the metaphysical point of view. Are jhanas half way points to nibbana, divine energy, presence of God, etc.? What has been your personal understanding? There are some people who believe jhana is simply some sort of conditining of chemical reactions in the brain, but I think it is something much deeper that we tap into.
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Hello dear friends,
Jhana has been discussed quite in depth on this forum and is probably the focal topic. This time I wanted to ask about how you view jhana from the metaphysical point of view. Are jhanas half way points to nibbana, divine energy, presence of God, etc.? What has been your personal understanding? There are some people who believe jhana is simply some sort of conditining of chemical reactions in the brain, but I think it is something much deeper that we tap into.
Thank you, Tad for posting your interesting inquiry. There is certainly a metaphysical significance of jhana.
First: Jhana is the very definition of the 8th fold of the Noble Eightfold path; therefore, without jhana there is no eight folds. This means Buddhism has been dead for at least 2000 years, and all of those people claiming to be teaching an Eightfold path are not.
Secondly: Yes, I agree, eight stages of samma-samadhi are definitely 8 way points to nibbana, which means almost no one in a Buddhis context has made it to nibbana in at least 2000 years.
Third: your question regarding the metaphysics of "energy" is a good one, because viru, virya, virtue are terms used both in the definition of the 8 stages of samma-samadhi, and appear in other religious contexts to define the religious experience.
Fourth: Making the experience of samma-samadhi strictly a neuro-chemical phenomena suggests that all one would have to do is ingest some neuro-chemicals to become enlightened. This is surely incorrect thinking.
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Are jhanas half way points to nibbana, divine energy, presence of God, etc.? What has been your personal understanding? There are some people who believe jhana is simply some sort of conditining of chemical reactions in the brain, but I think it is something much deeper that we tap into.
To me, the jhanas provide an "altered" state that is associated with peace, love, happiness and several other positive traits, self-arising in the midst of general chaos and suffering. It is an island refuge, as well as a place where the mind becomes still. The way the Buddha talked about it (and maybe Patanjali and many mystics) would indicate that it provides a set of signposts along the road to emancipation from the pitfalls of existence, and that it comes with a responsibility to be a good steward - or to practice in a way that harnesses its guidance. The Buddha seems to have left the most complete roadmap and directions for making the most of it.
I see that Jeffrey has posted a reply as I write this, and I agree with his points there. The 8 stages of samma-samadhi are the signposts along the Noble Eightfold Path.
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To me, the jhanas provide an "altered" state that is associated with peace, love, happiness and several other positive traits, self-arising in the midst of general chaos and suffering. It is an island refuge, as well as a place where the mind becomes still. The way the Buddha talked about it (and maybe Patanjali and many mystics) would indicate that it provides a set of signposts along the road to emancipation from the pitfalls of existence, and that it comes with a responsibility to be a good steward - or to practice in a way that harnesses its guidance. The Buddha seems to have left the most complete roadmap and directions for making the most of it.
I see that Jeffrey has posted a reply as I write this, and I agree with his points there. The 8 stages of samma-samadhi are the signposts along the Noble Eightfold Path.
Well said, Micahel. Additionally, I have recently been active on a few OOBE forums on FaceBook and a few of them have joined this group. One of the things that should be pointed out is, they speak of sounds, vibrations and lights as signposts for an approaching OOBE event, what I see them ignoring is the sign posts are more than sign posts, but are actually transformative; but in their rush to the OOBE they are ignoring the significant transformational experience of saturation in the 4 jhanas, which provide the foundation for the Out-of-Body Experience.
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Well said, Micahel. Additionally, I have recently been active on a few OOBE forums on FaceBook and a few of them have joined this group. One of the things that should be pointed out is, they speak of sounds, vibrations and lights as signposts for an approaching OOBE event, what I see them ignoring is the sign posts are more than sign posts, but are actually transformative; but in their rush to the OOBE they are ignoring the significant transformational experience of saturation in the 4 jhanas, which provide the foundation for the Out-of-Body Experience.
It's really true, Jeffrey - the jhanas are much more than signposts. I'm thinking of how meditative absorption lead to saturation throughout the day (and night), which has the tendency to slow the mind and actually still it when we turn our attention to the bliss, joy and ecstasy - or, at least, that's something I'm noticing more and more. This is probably a "sign" that second jhana is available off the cushion, due to repeated immersions in absorption that leads to saturation. With the pace of mind-activity slowed, it's easier to be self-reflective (mindful), to see where clinging and craving are happening, and to let them go.
I can also see how a training takes place through meditative absorption, and that this could be preparation for OOB experience (arupa jhanas). I'm to the point where, after my before-bed meditation, I lay down in shivasana and allow the charisms to engage again on my way into sleep, and it's clear that there is some sort of transformative process at work. We'll see where it goes during the time I have left this lifetime.
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Jhanananda and Michael,
Thank you for the discussion. I remember reading somewhere that the four brahma viharas are included in the jhanas. If this is correct, then it means that jhanas are some kind of divine / god's abodes.
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It's really true, Jeffrey - the jhanas are much more than signposts. I'm thinking of how meditative absorption lead to saturation throughout the day (and night), which has the tendency to slow the mind and actually still it when we turn our attention to the bliss, joy and ecstasy - or, at least, that's something I'm noticing more and more. This is probably a "sign" that second jhana is available off the cushion, due to repeated immersions in absorption that leads to saturation. With the pace of mind-activity slowed, it's easier to be self-reflective (mindful), to see where clinging and craving are happening, and to let them go.
I can also see how a training takes place through meditative absorption, and that this could be preparation for OOB experience (arupa jhanas). I'm to the point where, after my before-bed meditation, I lay down in shivasana and allow the charisms to engage again on my way into sleep, and it's clear that there is some sort of transformative process at work. We'll see where it goes during the time I have left this lifetime.
You make a number of excellent points, and I am reminded that we met on a non-dual forum about 2 decades ago, where non-dualists propose maintaining one's attention on the here and now becomes non-dual, and I agree, but as you and I have experienced a daily practice of deep meditation that produces some of the jhanas has a saturation effect which means at least part of our waking, day-to-day life can be saturated with at least some of the components of the jhanas as found in our daily deep meditation practice, which was a point that only you on the non-dual forums experienced because you had been meditating deeply on a consistent basis before we met, but they don't tend to meditate. So, my argument to the non-dualists is, if you don't meditate then your "non-dualism" is just superficial.
Jhanananda and Michael,
Thank you for the discussion. I remember reading somewhere that the four brahma viharas are included in the jhanas. If this is correct, then it means that jhanas are some kind of divine / god's abodes.
As we refer to the brahma viharas here is, they are some of the fruit "phala" that is the product of deep meditation that produces the 8 stages of samma-samadhi, but they are not the only fruit described in the Pali Canon, but interestingly Greco-Roman Christianity has a reference for the brahma viharas in their discussion on the "spiritual fruit" and "we know a tree by its fruit" is a direct reference to them, and we argue a reference to the rest of the "fruit" that are described in the Pali Canon, and if we examine historical references to other Eurasian religions we find very similar concepts were moving all over Eurasia at the time, so they were not invented by Christianity, but appropriated by them.
Also, our point here is the question of which comes first? We argue it is by following a dedicated contemplative life, which we find is precisely defined by the Noble Eightfold Path, when it is properly understood to include the 8 stages of samma-samadhi, that the brahma viharas and other "fruit" are the product of correctly following a dedicated contemplative life, which is precisely defined by the Noble Eightfold Path.
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I am reminded that we met on a non-dual forum about 2 decades ago, where non-dualists propose maintaining one's attention on the here and now becomes non-dual, and I agree, but as you and I have experienced a daily practice of deep meditation that produces some of the jhanas has a saturation effect which means at least part of our waking, day-to-day life can be saturated with at least some of the components of the jhanas as found in our daily deep meditation practice, which was a point that only you on the non-dual forums experienced because you had been meditating deeply on a consistent basis before we met, but they don't tend to meditate. So, my argument to the non-dualists is, if you don't meditate then your "non-dualism" is just superficial.
Jhanananda and Michael,
Thank you for the discussion. I remember reading somewhere that the four brahma viharas are included in the jhanas. If this is correct, then it means that jhanas are some kind of divine / god's abodes.
As we refer to the brahma viharas here is, they are some of the fruit "phala" that is the product of deep meditation that produces the 8 stages of samma-samadhi, but they are not the only fruit described in the Pali Canon, but interestingly Greco-Roman Christianity has a reference for the brahma viharas in their discussion on the "spiritual fruit" and "we know a tree by its fruit" is a direct reference to them, and we argue a reference to the rest of the "fruit" that are described in the Pali Canon, and if we examine historical references to other Eurasian religions we find very similar concepts were moving all over Eurasia at the time, so they were not invented by Christianity, but appropriated by them.
Also, our point here is the question of which comes first? We argue it is by following a dedicated contemplative life, which we find is precisely defined by the Noble Eightfold Path, when it is properly understood to include the 8 stages of samma-samadhi, that the brahma viharas and other "fruit" are the product of correctly following a dedicated contemplative life, which is precisely defined by the Noble Eightfold Path.
At the time, I had learned the "non-dual lingo" and had started to gather a following on those boards. A woman named El (who died shortly after - her story deserves a feature movie, maybe I'll tell it some time) took me to task at a certain point, as she could see that my understanding was superficial and based on concepts, rather than direct apprehension. I became defensive for a few days, then realized that she was absolutely correct, and wrote her a long letter of appreciation. She said, "You just might make it after all," lol. That's where you stepped in, Jeffrey, as the only person I've met so far who could put my charismatic experiences into a workable framework, and give me a way to establish a skillful, retreat-like contemplative life. All these years later, I'm beginning to grok the non-duality of a stilled mind. As you've often said, most of the Satsang Circuit teachers hang out in second jhana, with a stilled mind and steady state of absorption, but somehow that gets conflated with full "enlightenment."
As per the discussion of "fruit," it reminds me of the general complexity of trying to follow a genuine Buddhist path when most (if not all) of the well-known teachers are - judging from their Pali translation choices and their meditation instructions, which often give away the fact that they haven't "been there, done that" in their own practice - expounding from a place of superficiality and lack of direct apprehension. It's a tricky thing when the entire priesthood/orthodoxy seems bent on obfuscating the Buddha's actual teachings around the 8th fold of the Path. It seems that, if there are any Buddhist monks or lay practitioners out there who've actually given rise to the "fruit" of the 8th fold, they have chosen not to challenge the 2,500 year old authority structure, knowing that they will be outcast and demonized as you have been.
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At the time, I had learned the "non-dual lingo" and had started to gather a following on those boards. A woman named El (who died shortly after - her story deserves a feature movie, maybe I'll tell it some time) took me to task at a certain point, as she could see that my understanding was superficial and based on concepts, rather than direct apprehension. I became defensive for a few days, then realized that she was absolutely correct, and wrote her a long letter of appreciation. She said, "You just might make it after all," lol. That's where you stepped in, Jeffrey, as the only person I've met so far who could put my charismatic experiences into a workable framework, and give me a way to establish a skillful, retreat-like contemplative life. All these years later, I'm beginning to grok the non-duality of a stilled mind. As you've often said, most of the Satsang Circuit teachers hang out in second jhana, with a stilled mind and steady state of absorption, but somehow that gets conflated with full "enlightenment."
Yes, I remember that when we met, but you have come a long way since.
As per the discussion of "fruit," it reminds me of the general complexity of trying to follow a genuine Buddhist path when most (if not all) of the well-known teachers are - judging from their Pali translation choices and their meditation instructions, which often give away the fact that they haven't "been there, done that" in their own practice - expounding from a place of superficiality and lack of direct apprehension. It's a tricky thing when the entire priesthood/orthodoxy seems bent on obfuscating the Buddha's actual teachings around the 8th fold of the Path. It seems that, if there are any Buddhist monks or lay practitioners out there who've actually given rise to the "fruit" of the 8th fold, they have chosen not to challenge the 2,500 year old authority structure, knowing that they will be outcast and demonized as you have been.
It all boils down to whether one wants the truth or not. If we buy into the elaborate lies of the priesthood we get a cushy life prancing around in a costume pretending to be holy but just a clown like the rest of them, or do we want the truth. For you and I we couldn't live with a lie, so we get demonized, but being demonized today is better then being burned at the stake like Western Christianity treated their mystics for 1300 years. Now we see Western Christianity dying and all we have is a bunch of New Age frauds working the crowd.
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It all boils down to whether one wants the truth or not. If we buy into the elaborate lies of the priesthood we get a cushy life prancing around in a costume pretending to be holy but just a clown like the rest of the, or you want the truth. For you and I we couldn't live with a lie, so we get demonized, but being demonized today is better then being burned at the stake like Western Christianity treated their mystics for 1300 years. Now we see Western Christianity dying and al we have is a bunch of New Age frauds working the croud.
Not just Western Christianity. Buddhism and the teachings of actual mystics are hanging by a thread. The moment a priesthood sprouts out of the progenitor's seed, we can kiss the original truth goodbye.
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Not just Western Christianity. Buddhism and the teachings of actual mystics are hanging by a thread. The moment a priesthood sprouts out of the progenitor's seed, we can kiss the original truth goodbye.
I couldn't agree more