"Brahm says:
One can recognize a nimitta by the following six features: (1) it appears
only after the fifth stage of the meditation, after the meditator has been
with the beautiful breath for a long time; (2) it appears when the breath
disappears; (3) it comes only when the external five senses of sight, hearing,
smell, taste, and touch are completely absent; (4) it manifests only in
the silent mind, when descriptive thought (inner speech) is totally absent;
(5) it is strange but powerfully attractive; and (6) it is a beautifully simple
object."
Hello,
Just my 2 cents.
Brahm says:OK, so what is his "fifth stage of the meditation?" Is he talking about the next stage after the 4th jhana, or has he invented more stages?
One can recognize a nimitta by the following six features: (1) it appears
only after the fifth stage of the meditation, after the meditator has been
with the beautiful breath for a long time;
Brahm continues:Well, I have a number of problems with Brahms interpretation of jhana.
(2) it appears when the breath
disappears; (3) it comes only when the external five senses of sight, hearing,
smell, taste, and touch are completely absent; (4) it manifests only in
the silent mind, when descriptive thought (inner speech) is totally absent;
(5) it is strange but powerfully attractive; and (6) it is a beautifully simple
object."
The Fruit of the Contemplative Life2) The suttas define the 4 upper stages of samadhi, above jhana, arise when the the sensory domain has been effaced.
Samaññaphala Sutta (DN 2)
"With renunciation (vivicceva) of sensuality (kàmehi), and renunciation of unwholesome (akusalehi) mental states (dhammehi), and with applied and sustained attention (vitakka and vicára) he resides in the clarity (upasampajja) of the first contemplation (jhana); originating from dispassion (vivekajaü), bliss (piiti) and joy (sukha). Arising from dispassion (vivekajena), his body is filled (abhisanteti1) to overflowing (parisanneti2) with bliss (piiti), joy (sukha) and fulfillment (parippharati) in every way destroying (Nàssa) evil that sticks to his character (kiñci). Bliss (piiti) and joy (sukha) pervades, his body originating from dispassion (vivekajena).
Translated from the Pali by Jhananda
http://www.greatwesternvehicle.org/pali/Phala_Nikaya/samannaphala.htm
Ariyapariyesana Sutta (MN 26.28)3) Where does stilling the mind fit into Brahm's jhanas? They do not. The second jhana is defined in terms of tranquility, and the cessation of vitaka and viccars. If that is not the stilling of the mind, then I do not know what it is. And secondly, if it is the stilling of the mind, then I can still my mind without losing awareness of the sensory domain.
Astral plane (àkàsànañcàyatanaü)
"Then again (Puna ca paraü) seekers of Buddhahood (bhikkhave bhikkhu), with complete (Sabbaso) transcendence of perceptions of the physical domain (råpasaññànaü), passing beyond (samatikkama) the rapacious material world (pañighasaññànaü), extinguishing (atthagamà) the variety of sensory perceptions (nànattasaññànaü), without the endless pull of mental activity (amanasikàrà ananto àkàsoti), one travels within (upasampajja viharati) the astral plane (àkàsànañcàyatanaü). It is said (vuccati) this seeker of Buddhahood (bhikkhave bhikkhu) has blinded ('andhamakàsi) Mara (màraü). Trackless (apadaü) he has destroyed (vadhitvà) Mara's vision (màracakkhuü). He has disappeared from (adassanaü) and surpassed (gato) the Evil One (pàpimato).
Translated from the Pali by Jhananda
http://www.greatwesternvehicle.org/pali/tipitaka/sutta/majjhima/mn026-tb0.html
Maha-satipatthana Sutta (DN 22.22)I have had to conclude that Brahm must not meditate very deeply, or he would have to have thrown out his nonsensical definition of jhana.
(2nd Jhana)
originating from (ekodibhàvaü) withdrawal, clear intention (vitakkavicàrànaü våpasamà) and a noble tranquil mind (sampasàdanaü cetaso), and in the absence of applied and sustained attention (avitakkaü avicàraü) with absorption (samàdhijaü) in bliss and joy (pãtisukhaü), one resides (viharati) in the clarity (upasampajja) of the second ecstasy (dutiyaü jhànaü).
Translated from the Pali by Jhananda 11-02-06
http://www.greatwesternvehicle.org/pali/Phala_Nikaya/mahasatipatthanasutta.htm
In my experience #3 and #4 are too extreme. As the mind quiets down and the energy starts moving, piti starts arising and the light just pops up. It's quite dull at first but then it gets brighter as the meditation progresses. This is just my experience. My mind is certainly not completely without thought and I can certainly still feel the body---but there is that light there none the less. I was quite surprised when it started happening as I always considered myself extremely non-visual.I am glad you recognize that you can have a deep meditation experience while still being aware of the sensory domain. I wounder why Brahm does not think so? Is it possible that he does not meditate deeply?
| # | English | Pali | Source |
| 1 | applied or initiating attention | Vitakka | 1st jhana |
| 2 | sustained attention | Vicára | 1st jhana |
| 3 | joy | Sukha | 1st jhana |
| 4 | bliss | Piiti | 1st jhana |
| 5 | tranquility | Passaddhi | 2nd jhana |
| 6 | equanimity | Upekkha | 3rd jhana |
| 7 | freedom from unhappiness and suffering | Asukhacaadukkha | 4th jhana |
Satipatthana Samyutta (SN 8) (8) “The Competent Cook,”
“Suppose, contemplatives, a wise, competent (and) skillful cook were to present a king or royal minister with various kinds of curries…that wise…cook observes the sign of his master’s preferences.”
“So too, monks, here some wise, competent, skillful monk dwells contemplating the physical body, ardent, clearly comprehending, mindful, having removed covetousness and displeasure in regard to the world. While he (or she) dwells contemplating the physical body, his (her) mind becomes absorbed (jhana), his (her) corruptions (nivarana) are abandoned, he (she) picks up the sign (nimitta). He (she) dwells contemplating the (5 Skhandas) body (rupa)… sensations (vedana)… perception (sañña)… mental states (sañkhara)… cognition (viññana)… ardent, clearly comprehending, mindful, having removed covetousness and displeasure in regard to the world. While he dwells contemplating phenomena, his (her) mind becomes absorbed (jhana), his (her) corruptions (nivarana) are abandoned he (she) picks up the sign (nimitta)” of absorption (jhana).
Based upon a translation of the Samyutta Nikaya trans. Bhikkhu Bodhi, Wisdom, Edited by Jhananda
http://www.greatwesternvehicle.org/pali/Phala_Nikaya/competentcook.htm
Pa Auk Sayadaw, who is as far into the Visuddhimagga school as you can get (the promotional video for his monastery begins "Where Buddhaghosa lives!" not "where the Buddha's teachings live"), even this fellow mr-buddhaghosa-is-the-absolute-way-to-do-everything --does not state that the Nimitta ONLY arises after there is total silence of the mind, and a total loss of body formation. I believe his instruction is it eventually arises, usually after someone can stay with the breath without coarse excitation (totally being lost in thought) for about 2 hours.Well, I have a number of problems with Pa Auk, and it begins with his acceptance of the Visuddhimagga. The Visuddhimagga is a classic example of a religious fraud. Thus, anyone who has a genuine understanding of the religious experience (jhana/samadhi) will have to reject this book.
Also many monks have failed to make progress because they did not see the light exactly as Pa Auk/Vishudimagga describes, even with great effort, so I think individual results very quite a bit when it comes to charisms/nimittas.Well, any contemplative who wishes to make genuine progress is going to have to realize that most priests of most religions are frauds, and most of the doctrine of most religions has been heavily reengineered.
Well, it sounds like you are making progress, but the visual minitta is not the only nimitta (charism) to look for.
I am not very advanced but I do definitely see a light when I meditate, almost always immediately when the third eye chakra area opens up. Of course, sometimes the hindrances are bad and it doesn't happen. At first it used to only appear after a few hours now it's always there within a few minutes. My mind is certainly not completely still but I am getting somewhat intense piti and sukkah. The two seem to go hand in hand but it is not a 1:1 correlation by any means.
Well, it is good to hear that Brahm claims that he has thrown everything in the Vishudimagga out except for the descriptions of the nimittas. Now he has to throw that out too, and keep meditating.
I have found the 3 stages of the nimitta light/counterpoint sign as described in the Visuddhimagga helpful, but perhaps it's a mistake to worry about it in that detail.
In the book "The Experience of Samadhi" by Richard Shankman, Ajahn Brahm claims that he has thrown everything in the Vishudimagga out except for the descriptions of the nimittas. Clearly, his classification's of the Jhanas are extremely Vishudimagga influenced in his description of the intensity of the absorption. And in other ways too (not worth getting into here).
If I recall Ajahn Brahm also states that 90% of the time if you think it's the the nimitta it is the nimitta. Sounds somewhat contradictory to me. (I may just be remembering wrong.)
Full disclaimer: I am a huge fan of Ajahn Brahm, but some of his instructions do not match my experience so far. I like Pa Auk too -- no disrespect meant.
Well, I have a number of problems with Pa Auk, and it begins with his acceptance of the Visuddhimagga. The Visuddhimagga is a classic example of a religious fraud. Thus, anyone who has a genuine understanding of the religious experience (jhana/samadhi) will have to reject this book.
Secondly, where in the suttas does it say one has to meditate for 2 hours with an unwavering mind just to get to the first jhana? This is nonsense. Those who are skilled at stilling their mind can do it within minutes. Thus, if the stilling of the mind is the second jhana, which I believe it is, then it does not take 2 hours of hard core meditation to get to the 2nd jhana.
Aloha to you all...Interesting discussion! ...Personally, I find GWV's "roadsigns", clear enough to see my way. HoweverThanks, Kimo. Feel free to ask me to expose another fraud if you want; because, just because some sounds good doesn't mean that they have not just learned what to say.
I also entertain other signs and maps, presented before us travelers, at
the Inn of GWV. It's also pleasant the proprietor, Jeffrey, is serving free
drinks of clearness, some sweet, some bitter.
Party on,
Kimo
Hello Jeffrey and Cybermonk,Feel free to read it and make your own judgement. Here is a link to my critically literary analysis of the Abhidhamma and Visuddhimagga (http://www.greatwesternvehicle.org/criticism/abhidhamma.htm)
Very interesting replies Jeffrey. I think you really hit the nail on the head. You certainly did not offend me.Well, I have a number of problems with Pa Auk, and it begins with his acceptance of the Visuddhimagga. The Visuddhimagga is a classic example of a religious fraud. Thus, anyone who has a genuine understanding of the religious experience (jhana/samadhi) will have to reject this book.Can you point me to any writing on this topic? I would very curious. Or perhaps just reading the Vishuddhimagga itself will make it obvious. It is sitting on my book shelf but I have only read portions so far.
A very good point. However, I do not think I was being clear. I believe the only claim was Pa Auk said this charism, the visual hallucination, which he deems is so important will tend to arise after one can follow the breath for x minutes.Yes, I figured it was Pa Auk making this claim. Here I might have to agree with him, if we are talking about the visual charism, which is also called a 'kasina' in the suttas. It does typically take a long time of meditation to get to the luminous sphere. I thought you were writing about the first jhana. The luminous sphere comes after the 4th jhana and is a portal into the immaterial domains.
Why the visual nimitta is so important is strange.Well, Luke, I like to give people stages to work toward, because giving people some grand goal such as the OOBE, or the luminous sphere is several steps ahead of those who have never experienced the first or second jhana.
He runs an extremely large monastery. I am told the interviews he does with students who are new are extremely short,and basically if you can't keep the mind on the breath for 2 hours (or was it 30 minutes? now I'm not sure) just keep going.
Anyway, it isn't important. All your criticisms make sense to me.
I have only attained the first Jhana so I have no idea about anything else. (I'll post a more detailed description as time permits) So far what you say seems to be the case.
Cybermonk,
Thank you for the book recommendation, it is going on my reading list.
Best, Luke
The luminous sphere comes after the 4th jhana and is a portal into the immaterial domains.Do you think any of the sense charisms are portals into the immaterial domains? I got that impression from your article.
Hello,Hello again, Luke, I am glad I could be of help.
Thank you for that essay I found it very interesting. The index of where to find jhana-nimittas in the suttas is very valuable.
It seems like there are mediators out there who are getting frustrated when their "luminous sphere" doesn't match the descriptions in the commentaries--when, as your article suggests, it doesn't really matter.Rigid interpretations of religious experiences are typical of priests who have no attainment. After all, it is bad for the business of religions, when the followers have better religious experiences than the priest.
I'm coming to the realization that I should not give too much importance to the luminous sphere over any other type of charism, such as tactile. I get tactile and visual signs always now but I have only experienced the aural nimitta on a few occasions.All of the senses have their own charism. The meditation object is intended only to get one to the still mind. The still mind is just the doorway into the charisms. So, one just has to learn to dump the meditation object when the mind becomes still, then saturate one's awareness in as many charisms as are going to show up. That is it.
Do you think any of the sense charisms are portals into the immaterial domains? I got that impression from your article.All of the charisms are portals into the immaterial domains.
I'm surprised to hear that more people report aural nimittas as opposed to visual. I have only had the aural nimitta on a few occasions. When I spent a weekend at the Metta Forest Monastery. I did experience a loud audio charism for a couple of hours on two days--it sounded more like an intense humming combined with Star Trek like noises. I know that sounds strange.My aural charism some times sounds like the wind, sometimes like the ocean, sometimes like the rain, and sometimes like "intense humming combined with Star Trek like noises," so it is not weird to me at all.
I always considered myself a very non-visual person -- I am in awe of people who can draw and paint. So I am surprised visual signs have arisen first in my case.Yes, the religious experience that is flooded with charisms is the most fulfilling experiences I have ever had.
The one very intense absorption experience I had was a luminous sphere sort of exploding. It was quite a turning point for me. This was after 3 hours of meditation (with some walking breaks in there). There was a golden glow to the world for about two hours after the experience. I was also happier than I had ever been.
I usually experience everything in the world looking quite a bit better after I meditate, but this was really quite different.Just think, if you can start every day bathed in the charisms, you will find every day looking quite a bit better. So, keep up the practice, and meditate at least once a day, if not 3-6 times a day.
--Luke