Fruit of the Contemplative Life
Fruit of the contemplative life: => General Discussion => : Luke Avedon February 07, 2013, 11:31:20 PM
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Hello,
I was hoping I could receive some guidance.
I was always somebody who was convinced they could not function without 8 and a half hours of sleep. But lately, I have been experimenting with getting up earlier in an effort to get more meditation time in. I have long found that it’s always worth sacrificing some sleep, if I must, to get an hour of meditation in the morning. The benefits just outweigh the costs so dramatically. For example, it has been better to trade 6 hours of sleep and one hour of meditation for 8 hours of sleep and only 20 minutes of meditation for quite a while now.
Lately I’ve noticed even if I only got four hours of sleep the night before as long as I hit the two hour mark in my morning meditation I don’t feel much of fatigue at all during the day. Before this point, only getting four hours of sleep would be a catastrophe.
However if I do this, by lunchtime the mindfulness has worn off to a degree that I feel as fatigued as if I had not done the morning meditation, so another two hours of meditation is required.
Another discovery: I believe my addiction to caffeine is having a detrimental effect on my meditation quality. However, with some experimentation I have discovered that so far if I have not gotten a full nights sleep without caffeine I can’t make it through that first hour of meditation.
The more I meditate the more I discover I am just layers of addictions beneath addictions -- even if by clinical standards I am supposedly addiction free! (ok just the socially acceptable one’s like coffee and pizza
Anyway,
Any experience in this? Do advanced mediators really log much less time asleep? I hear all these stories of Ajahn Chah never needing more than two hours of sleep a night. I recently read a book on Yoga Nidra but I'm not sure how credible it really was.
By the way, I always assumed that monasteries where they do one all night meditation session a week - was just Macho BS but has anyone found this to be a fruitful and healthy practice?
Best, Luke
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Hello,
I was hoping I could receive some guidance.
Good to hear from you again, Luke, it was getting bit boring here.
I was always somebody who was convinced they could not function without 8 and a half hours of sleep. But lately, I have been experimenting with getting up earlier in an effort to get more meditation time in. I have long found that it’s always worth sacrificing some sleep, if I must, to get an hour of meditation in the morning. The benefits just outweigh the costs so dramatically. For example, it has been better to trade 6 hours of sleep and one hour of meditation for 8 hours of sleep and only 20 minutes of meditation for quite a while now.
Before I took up a contemplative life I probably got more than 8 hours of sleep every night. But, once I took up a daily meditating practice, then I found I just did not need as much sleep. Typically I get about 6 hours of rest at night. And, I have found that for every hour of meditation I get I need one hour less of sleep. I wound not; however, do the matcho thing and force yourself to have less sleep, but trading sleep time for meditation is reasonable.
Lately I’ve noticed even if I only got four hours of sleep the night before as long as I hit the two hour mark in my morning meditation I don’t feel much of fatigue at all during the day. Before this point, only getting four hours of sleep would be a catastrophe.
However if I do this, by lunchtime the mindfulness has worn off to a degree that I feel as fatigued as if I had not done the morning meditation, so another two hours of meditation is required.
I meditate every time I feel fatigue, so, like you, I meditate in the morning, then again around noon, then often ad dusk, then just before bed.
Another discovery: I believe my addiction to caffeine is having a detrimental effect on my meditation quality.
Years ago I found caffeine is a cerebral stimulant, so I swore off it for a few decades. I am so well established now in no-mind, that I can drink a cub of coffee and not have it stimulate thought. I consider a serious contemplative would not drink caffeine of any kind. Instead meditate when you are tired.
However, with some experimentation I have discovered that so far if I have not gotten a full nights sleep without caffeine I can’t make it through that first hour of meditation.
Then get more rest at night.
The more I meditate the more I discover I am just layers of addictions beneath addictions -- even if by clinical standards I am supposedly addiction free! (ok just the socially acceptable one’s like coffee and pizza
I agree, everyone who is not enlightened is full of addictive behavior; however, since everyone is addicted, then most addictions are considered normal, like caffeine, alcohol, chocolate, sugar, TV, greed, sex, etc.
Anyway,
Any experience in this? Do advanced mediators really log much less time asleep?
We have had a number of religious experience case histories reported on the GWV forums, most of the reports indicate a reduction for the need for sleep.
I hear all these stories of Ajahn Chah never needing more than two hours of sleep a night.
Never met Ajahn Chah, did not read much of his work, but his desciples are all heavily into the Vissudhimagga, which suggest to me that; while Ajahn Chah was clearly not mainstream Theravadan, he nonetheless had not gotten that deep because he did not know that the Vissudhimagga is a fraud.
I recently read a book on Yoga Nidra but I'm not sure how credible it really was.
By the way, I always assumed that monasteries where they do one all night meditation session a week - was just Macho BS but has anyone found this to be a fruitful and healthy practice?
Best, Luke
I have found meditating a lot only once a week is less useful than meditating several times a day at 1-2 hour sessions; and so far I have yet to find a branch of Buddhism, or a Buddhist priest who meditates deeply.
Some years ago there was some discussion of Yoga Nidra (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yoga-nidra). I cannot recall the conclusion, but if I felt they were the real deal, then I would have incorporated their doctrine here. From the Wiki on it, it sounds like Yoga Nidra (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yoga-nidra) is lucid dreaming. I have had it for 40 years and I did not do any of their exercises, or chant their mantras.
The claim that Swami Rama was able to control his brainwaves only underscores the fact that the EEG brainwaves have never been properly associated with deep meditation. In fact, as far as I know, I am the only researcher who has bothered to retranslate the Yoga Sutras and the Buddhist sutras to find out that most translations of Asian religious literature are profoundly wrong; therefore all conclusions based upon wrong translations cannot result in correct conclusions.
To the best of my knowledge I am also the only researcher who has bothered to track down the descriptions of the 8 stages of the religious experience from the major mystics and correlated them; and further I engaged in deep meditation until I experienced all of those stages. So, until researchers do that work their research is meaningless.
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Thank you Jeffrey that is very helpful.
"I have found meditating a lot only once a week is less useful than meditating several times a day at 1-2 hour sessions; and so far I have yet to find a branch of Buddhism, or a Buddhist priest who meditates deeply.
Have you ever found even longer sessions helpful if the body is up for it.
What do you think of Pa Auk's advice that if you increase your meditation sessions to 3 and then 4 hours at a time, you will just naturally build up more concentration and then one will hit the Jhanas much harder when you let them arise. I know you are not a fan of The Pa Auk/Visuddhimagga school....but.....I thought I would ask anyway.
I have been toying with longer sessions, trying to be very gentle and not pushing it. 1:45 minutes seems to be the natural amount of time I'm comfortable sitting now, if I can stay peaceful. Although in the past few weeks it has ranged everywhere from 30 minutes - 3 hours 10 minutes.
I have some theories about this sort of thing but I'll save them until I have more time to ramble on.
Some years ago there was some discussion of Yoga Nidra. I cannot recall the conclusion, but if I felt they were the real deal, then I would have incorporated their doctrine here. From the Wiki on it, it sounds like Yoga Nidra is lucid dreaming. I have had it for 40 years and I did not do any of their exercises, or chant their mantras.
From Swami Rami's book it sounded like Yoga Nidra was mostly about staying conscious throughout the entire sleep cycle. When the brain is in deep Delta waves the consciousness leaves the body and one is having a traditional OBE. They also claim that one can learn while unconscious through Yoga Nidra (even if one hasn't mastered the OBEs yet).
These guys like to make all these claims that all these alpha males in history were actually practicing Yoga Nidra:
The officers of Napoleon, the 17th century general and emperor of Napoleon, the 17th century general and emperor of France, for example, have reported that he possessed an unfathomable and tireless source of energy and inspiration. At the very height of pitched battle, just when he outcome was in the balance, he would hand over his command to a subordinate, leaving instructions that he was not to be disturbed for twenty minutes under any circumstance. Then, retiring to his tent and stretching out upon an enormous bearskin, he would enter yoga nidra." Yoga Nidra by Swami Satyananda Saraswati page 14
But Saraswati's techniques really are just some generic guided meditations while lying down.
or chant their mantras.
The insistence of various Yoga and Vajrayana schools that specific mantras do specific things to the consciousness has always bothered me.
One last thing:
The claim that Swami Rama was able to control his brainwaves only underscores the fact that the EEG brainwaves have never been properly associated with deep meditation.
I agree. One example is during Swami Rama's OBE's (or staying concious through the sleep cycle) he is supposedly generating deep delta waves, which science claims is impossible. On the other hand, when Charles Tart famously tested his OBE subject by placing numbers on top of a book shelf, she was generating deep alpha waves during her OBEs which is also supposed to be impossible (based on where she was in the sleep cycle.)
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Thank you Jeffrey that is very helpful.
"I have found meditating a lot only once a week is less useful than meditating several times a day at 1-2 hour sessions; and so far I have yet to find a branch of Buddhism, or a Buddhist priest who meditates deeply.
Have you ever found even longer sessions helpful if the body is up for it.
When I went into retreat for 2 years about 10 years ago I wanted to see just how much meditation I could do day after day. I found meditating more than 6 hours a day for me was not sustainable, because if I meditated more, then I ended up with joint inflammations. I have meditated in deep samadhi for a maximum of 3 hours, not including the lucid sleep cycle of 6 hours. My feeling is 1-2 hour sessions 3-6 times a day is plenty; however, meditation is not like voting. What one gets out of meditation is not based solely on time spent doing it. One also has to learn to meditate skillfully. The skilful practice of meditation leads to religious experiences, which are called jhana or samadhi in the suttas.
What do you think of Pa Auk's advice that if you increase your meditation sessions to 3 and then 4 hours at a time, you will just naturally build up more concentration and then one will hit the Jhanas much harder when you let them arise. I know you are not a fan of The Pa Auk/Visuddhimagga school....but.....I thought I would ask anyway.
Anyone who translates the terms 'jhana' or 'samadhi' as 'concentration' is a fool. Anyone who looks to the Visuddhimagga for guidance is a fool.
I have been toying with longer sessions, trying to be very gentle and not pushing it. 1:45 minutes seems to be the natural amount of time I'm comfortable sitting now, if I can stay peaceful. Although in the past few weeks it has ranged everywhere from 30 minutes - 3 hours 10 minutes.
I have some theories about this sort of thing but I'll save them until I have more time to ramble on.
Sounds like a good practice. One needs to pay attention to whether one is getting something out of a meditation session. A 4 hour meditation session that does not lead to jhana is a waste of time.
Some years ago there was some discussion of Yoga Nidra. I cannot recall the conclusion, but if I felt they were the real deal, then I would have incorporated their doctrine here. From the Wiki on it, it sounds like Yoga Nidra is lucid dreaming. I have had it for 40 years and I did not do any of their exercises, or chant their mantras.
From Swami Rami's book it sounded like Yoga Nidra was mostly about staying conscious throughout the entire sleep cycle. When the brain is in deep Delta waves the consciousness leaves the body and one is having a traditional OBE. They also claim that one can learn while unconscious through Yoga Nidra (even if one hasn't mastered the OBEs yet).
These guys like to make all these claims that all these alpha males in history were actually practicing Yoga Nidra:
The officers of Napoleon, the 17th century general and emperor of Napoleon, the 17th century general and emperor of France, for example, have reported that he possessed an unfathomable and tireless source of energy and inspiration. At the very height of pitched battle, just when he outcome was in the balance, he would hand over his command to a subordinate, leaving instructions that he was not to be disturbed for twenty minutes under any circumstance. Then, retiring to his tent and stretching out upon an enormous bearskin, he would enter yoga nidra." Yoga Nidra by Swami Satyananda Saraswati page 14
But Saraswati's techniques really are just some generic guided meditations while lying down.
or chant their mantras.
The insistence of various Yoga and Vajrayana schools that specific mantras do specific things to the consciousness has always bothered me.
Religion is all about the hard sell; however, no religion owns the religious experience or how to get there. And, so far I have yet to find the priests of any religion today understand the religious experience or how to get there.
One last thing:
The claim that Swami Rama was able to control his brainwaves only underscores the fact that the EEG brainwaves have never been properly associated with deep meditation.
I agree. One example is during Swami Rama's OBE's (or staying concious through the sleep cycle) he is supposedly generating deep delta waves, which science claims is impossible. On the other hand, when Charles Tart famously tested his OBE subject by placing numbers on top of a book shelf, she was generating deep alpha waves during her OBEs which is also supposed to be impossible (based on where she was in the sleep cycle.)
Well, I think it is best to ignore all research into meditation, because science is just another religion with its own priesthood with a product to market.
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Aloha to ya Luke,
Personally, I try to get to sleep at 9pm so I can get six hours of sleep a day.
Any less than that puts me into a catchup mode where I'm tired here and there.
At 4am, I've trained myself to awake. Most times it works. I then do my main
daily practice until around 6am.
Practice to me is; body stretch, I mostly use Taoist postures for westerners, ie,
a half lotus, then I circulate energy within the eight energy channels to remove
toxins. The rest of the time I relax in the state of present awareness.
What I do during the rest of my time, is try to use those minutes during the day
keeping myself in present awareness. Of course I'm inundated with data from my
senses, so I also use the bellows breathing to circulate energy whenever I can.
Both these practices I can do without other beings knowing I'm practicing.
I have the outside appearance of a farmer, which keeps the needy critics off
my being. I find the facade a good tool for mystics. Posturing as a say, "prospector", makes life more agreeable, especially if you live amongst religious
fanatics.
I'm slowly learning. Jeffrey's a great help. Hopefully I'll reach fullness before he
burns out in this dimension. So..... hopefully these tips you can try out, maybe
you can get something from them.
Later,
Kimo
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Thank you Kilmo and Jeffrey,
That is all very helpful. I feel like most teachers will always just advise more more more effort and not give specifics on what time is actually required for rest and practice ect.
Sounds like a good practice. One needs to pay attention to whether one is getting something out of a meditation session. A 4 hour meditation session that does not lead to jhana is a waste of time.
This is especially interesting and I will have to reflect on it further.
Kilmo,
Can you recommend any good books on Taoist practice besides the one you recommended the other day (which is on my reading list)?
I am more inclined towards traditions that emphasize that energy is moving around in the body. The only reason being that my practice took off once I realized it was about letting the piti saturate my entire body. And that the "chakras" turn out to be real -- but there is no need to over complicate things. Jeffrey and Thanissaro Bhikkhu are the only two folks in a Buddhist context who have pointed that out to me.
This did spark an interest in Kundalini but there seems to be quite a bit obfuscation there, a need to over complicate things.
There is a friendly local Tai Chi teacher I sometimes chat with but I think he has bought into to the fantastical. Also, there seems to be an obsession on memorizing forms instead of letting the piti saturate the body (or Qi or whatever you want to call it).
Of course I'm inundated with data from my
senses, so I also use the bellows breathing to circulate energy whenever I can.
Both these practices I can do without other beings knowing I'm practicing.
I have found the importance of this sort of thing can not be emphasized enough. I have found doing the practice throughout the day to be extremely important to put it mildly. Perhaps, as important as the formal sitting.
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Hi Luke,
I am but a fellow traveler, trying to stay on a pragmatic path to be all I can be.
So... I don't posture myself as sophisticated, a scholar, teacher, or otherwise
someone who knows the full truth of anything.
Presently... I'm working on, stilling the body, the heart and the mind. My purpose
in doing this is to reduce the loss of the creative force I was given and gathered
earlier in my life. I have begun training that will replenish this creative energy.
If I can offer you something I've found which truly works for you, hooraayyy!!!!
Tai Chi.... as I understand it, actually means "supreme ultimate". This state is
achieved by adding back the used creative energy that we spent on extending
our karma, or also known as reality. If you succeed in replenishing yourself,
your inner vision will show you a glowing light, located below your navel, ie,
the gas tank is again full.
Tai Chi instruction, in my humble opinion, is all about packing in and circulating
the creative energy of existence. The instructor you speak of possibly will
enhance this process, using forms However, I personally believe the basic,
"free" forms are out there for you to use, if you have the will to apply them.
I believe I am speaking to a scholar. If you wish additional data on paths
of training, I, as a fellow internet monk, wish to challenge you to a study.
Read; Charles Luk's (Luk'uan yu) book "Taoist Yoga, Alchemy and Immortality",
"five times", without criticism, speculation, conclusions, or discussion with peer groups.
Once you achieve this, I have deeper knowledge you may be interested in.
Have fun,
Kimo
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Thank you Kilmo.
I am certainly no scholar. I have found reading (otherwise known as avoiding meditating) a bit helpful. I will certainly read that book you recommended.