Fruit of the Contemplative Life
Fruit of the contemplative life: => Unpacking Religion => : Luke Avedon February 12, 2013, 07:19:52 PM
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Besides Jeffrey the only other fellow who really helped me a lot with my meditation is Thanissaro Bhikhhu (prefers to be called Than Geoff). In fact, that is what led me to look at the GWV work more closely. To make a long story short, Than Geoff's methods focus on letting rapture satuarate the body. This was a massive improvement over my previous techniques. I then happened to read the Buddha's simile of the Bathman
"Just as if a skilled bathman or bathman's apprentice would pour bath powder into a brass basin and knead it together, sprinkling it again and again with water, so that his ball of bath powder — saturated, moisture-laden, permeated within and without — would nevertheless not drip; even so, the monk permeates... this very body with the rapture and pleasure born of withdrawal. There is nothing of his entire body unpervaded by rapture and pleasure born from withdrawal."
Samaññaphala Sutta.
I was then convinced this was the right direction to proceed in. This then led me to take a look at the GWV work more seriously. I thought hmmmm wasn't there a fellow on youtube I saw talking about this i.e. rapture permeating the body, energy becoming unblocked ect. Every other Jhana fellow in a Buddhist context was talking about Vishuddimagga style narrow point concentration being built up over a long long time ect.
Since then I have found the two time's I have met Thanissario that his descriptions of Jhana and prescriptions of practice are identical more or less to Jeffrey's.
Anyway, I had the pleasure of meeting him briefly for the second time Sunday evening. There was about a dozen of us in a patron's living room chatting for 45 minutes.
From hanging around his monestary (and being the terrible gossip that I am), I heard all about how much the Theravada community secretly dislikes him. Banning him from almost all meditation centers, calling Tricycle magazine ect., to pull his articles right before publication for being so keen on Jhana and his approach. I got the impression if a patron hadn't literally bought him a large Avocado farm business -- his very small monastery wouldn't be around.
I would be curious to learn what the differences are between the GWV approach and Thanissario's. I thought I'd post the meditation related topics we discussed and perhaps Jeffrey or others would let me know where they might disagree.
1.) Moha Simahdi. I thought this would be a big difference between Thanissaro's work and Jeffreys. When I originally read this passage in his essay "Jhana not by the numbers" I assumed Thanissaro was worried about people becoming Jhana Junkies/Bliss Bunnies which would certainly be the opposite of GWV.
here were two exceptions to Ajaan Fuang's usual practice of not identifying the state you had attained in your practice, and both involved states of wrong concentration. The first was the state that comes when the breath gets so comfortable that your focus drifts from the breath to the sense of comfort itself, your mindfulness begins to blur, and your sense of the body and your surroundings gets lost in a pleasant haze. When you emerge, you find it hard to identify where exactly you were focused. Ajaan Fuang called this moha-samadhi, or delusion-concentration.
I asked Thanissaro about this and he basically said, No, the danger of Moha Simahdi is not that there is any danger of being attached to Jhana or anything like that. The problem is the focus goes off of what is generating the bliss and it prevents deeper Jhana/Simahdi from developing. Of course, you want to go as deep as possible with Jhana.""
(paraphrasing from memory).
2.) The Visuddhimagga is BS (he was much more polite of course).
3.) Samadhi doesn’t cut the fetters on it’s own, the flashes of insight that cut fetters happen through a mind developed by jhana wanting something more, realizing that even having access to great Samadhi states can be messed with, this sort of thing leads to insight. But the Vipassana systems, like in the Visuddhimagga, are over complicated and run people through a bunch of hoops, insight comes from right Jhana and then wanting something more--basically. It works a bit differently for different people.
4.) Once returner and up (or was it nonreturner? I can't remember now--it's in the cannon) has zero interest in sex.
5.) It's fine for lay people to not be celibate is fine, as long they are always ethical, But, one should realize any sexual craving and activity will always be a bit of a handicap to the contemplative life.
6.) People who report UFO abductions are likely encountering Devas
7.) Devas are real--but you won’t know if you are hallucinating or not--best bet it always to not mess with any Devas or other beings in immaterial realms and be polite.
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Besides Jeffrey the only other fellow who really helped me a lot with my meditation is Thanissaro Bhikhhu (prefers to be called Than Geoff). In fact, that is what led me to look at the GWV work more closely. To make a long story short, Than Geoff's methods focus on letting rapture satuarate the body.
Well, that is good to know. Are you speaking of his translation work, or some commentary that he wrote? If so, I wonder where he got the idea that one should meditate allowing "rapture to satuarate the body"?
This was a massive improvement over my previous techniques. I then happened to read the Buddha's simile of the Bathman
"Just as if a skilled bathman or bathman's apprentice would pour bath powder into a brass basin and knead it together, sprinkling it again and again with water, so that his ball of bath powder — saturated, moisture-laden, permeated within and without — would nevertheless not drip; even so, the monk permeates... this very body with the rapture and pleasure born of withdrawal. There is nothing of his entire body unpervaded by rapture and pleasure born from withdrawal."
Samaññaphala Sutta.
Well, yes, it is the Samaññaphala Sutta. It is not necessarily Than Geoff. And, I would argue that the suttas, when properly translated, lead inexorably to jhana.
I was then convinced this was the right direction to proceed in. This then led me to take a look at the GWV work more seriously. I thought hmmmm wasn't there a fellow on youtube I saw talking about this i.e. rapture permeating the body, energy becoming unblocked ect.
Well, so reading the suttas in translation brought you to meditation that leads to bliss, and thus to the GWV. I would like to think there was at least one Bhikkhu who valued my work, but I have not found yet.
Every other Jhana fellow in a Buddhist context was talking about Vishuddimagga style narrow point concentration being built up over a long long time ect.
Yes, that is the problem with the Vishuddimagga, it does not lead to jhana, even though it talks about it.
Since then I have found the two time's I have met Thanissario that his descriptions of Jhana and prescriptions of practice are identical more or less to Jeffrey's.
Well, then, I guess I should go visit him to see if he wishes to be friends in the dhamma.
Anyway, I had the pleasure of meeting him briefly for the second time Sunday evening. There was about a dozen of us in a patron's living room chatting for 45 minutes.
From hanging around his monestary (and being the terrible gossip that I am), I heard all about how much the Theravada community secretly dislikes him. Banning him from almost all meditation centers, calling Tricycle magazine ect., to pull his articles right before publication for being so keen on Jhana and his approach.
Well, it sounds like we have a few other things in common. Too bad he never made an attempt to be friends, while I reached out to him.
I got the impression if a patron hadn't literally bought him a large Avocado farm business -- his very small monastery wouldn't be around.
I would be curious to learn what the differences are between the GWV approach and Thanissario's. I thought I'd post the meditation related topics we discussed and perhaps Jeffrey or others would let me know where they might disagree.
A critical comparative literary analysis between my work and Thanissario's sounds good to me.
1.) Moha Simahdi. I thought this would be a big difference between Thanissaro's work and Jeffreys. When I originally read this passage in his essay "Jhana not by the numbers" I assumed Thanissaro was worried about people becoming Jhana Junkies/Bliss Bunnies which would certainly be the opposite of GWV.
here were two exceptions to Ajaan Fuang's usual practice of not identifying the state you had attained in your practice, and both involved states of wrong concentration. The first was the state that comes when the breath gets so comfortable that your focus drifts from the breath to the sense of comfort itself, your mindfulness begins to blur, and your sense of the body and your surroundings gets lost in a pleasant haze. When you emerge, you find it hard to identify where exactly you were focused. Ajaan Fuang called this moha-samadhi, or delusion-concentration.
I asked Thanissaro about this and he basically said, No, the danger of Moha Simahdi is not that there is any danger of being attached to Jhana or anything like that. The problem is the focus goes off of what is generating the bliss and it prevents deeper Jhana/Simahdi from developing. Of course, you want to go as deep as possible with Jhana.""
(paraphrasing from memory).
Well, that all seems reasonable. What is described as Moha Simahdi above I would call "spacing out." Deep meditation is not just spacing out.
2.) The Visuddhimagga is BS (he was much more polite of course).
Well, then we are in agreement there, but I tend to call the Visuddhimagga "a monumental stinking pile of horse manure." Or, "the Visuddhimagga is a classic example of appropriation, subversion, obfuscation and mystification, which is typical of an intrenched priesthood."
3.) Samadhi doesn’t cut the fetters on it’s own, the flashes of insight that cut fetters happen through a mind developed by jhana wanting something more, realizing that even having access to great Samadhi states can be messed with, this sort of thing leads to insight. But the Vipassana systems, like in the Visuddhimagga, are over complicated and run people through a bunch of hoops, insight comes from right Jhana and then wanting something more--basically. It works a bit differently for different people.
Well, we are almost 100% in agreement on this one too. Except I would say, one will not want or crave anything, when one has deep jhana, so once the cravings are cut, then the strings that attach us to the fetters are broken.
4.) Once returner and up (or was it nonreturner? I can't remember now--it's in the cannon) has zero interest in sex.
If I recall correctly that would arahat. It just so happens I have had jhana for 40 years, I have been celibate for 13 years, and I have no craving for sex. My case histories support a reduction in sexaul desire when jhana is a consistent aspect of one's daily meditation practice, especially at the level of the 4th jhana; however, I learned early not to promote that, because young men are immediately turned off from what else I have to say.
5.) It's fine for lay people to not be celibate is fine, as long they are always ethical, But, one should realize any sexual craving and activity will always be a bit of a handicap to the contemplative life.
Well, I think this is a bit of cart before the horse. First we have to get people meditating, regardless of their ethics, then we have to interest them in leading an ethical life to enhance their contemplative life, then if they want to go much deeper, then, sure, let's promote celibacy. However, jhana becomes the incentive to go deeper, not some belief system.
6.) People who report UFO abductions are likely encountering Devas
Well, I would put it differently, but we are essentially in agreement. I have examined a number of UFO abduction stories and they all read like classic OOBEs. The term 'Deva' is just Sanskrit for 'angel' and angels are simply disembodied spirits.
7.) Devas are real--but you won’t know if you are hallucinating or not--best bet it always to not mess with any Devas or other beings in immaterial realms and be polite.
This is good advice, but when one is meditating at the level of the 5th through the 8th samadhi, which is all out-of-body, then one is dealing with disembodied spirits aka angels, aka devas. So, dealing with them is par for the course.