Fruit of the Contemplative Life
Fruit of the contemplative life: => Kriya => : Jhanananda December 19, 2011, 04:59:13 AM
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Spontaneous movement can occur during meditation. It is known as a 'Kriyas' in Sanskrit. You may find reading and/or viewing the essay and video on this subject informative:
Spontaneous, Charismatic. Movement, Kriyas (April 23, 2004)
http://www.greatwesternvehicle.org/kriyas.htm
Video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q0qj5oh5EK8
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I have never had any dramatic kriya or ecstatic experiences, but I have had a few jerky shakes. These are very occasional and can happen when I'm relaxing, meditating or falling asleep. I read or heard somewhere that they're the body's natural way of ridding itself of accumulated stress. I've observed cats and dogs as well as children have those jerky shakes when they're asleep.
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Thank-you Twin Oceans for posting your comments to this thread. Yes, jerks occur when people, and animals, relax; and hypnotists have observed the phenomena in their clients; they call it "hypnic-jerk." So, I agree, it seems to be related to releasing stress, so when we recall that Saint Vitus was burned at the stake for manifesting these phenomena, and I was booted out of a Goenka retreat for manifesting these phenomena, then we can conclude that no human society has come to terms with these phenomena; and humans are still just so very bound up in mysterious explanations for very simple phenomena.
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Kriyas certainly are real. I notice I also often tighten up, muscle-wise, and this seems to tie in with sensations as of a subtle-body 'hardening/setting'. Someone once suggested to me that the Papal shepherd's crook was a symbol of this effect, as the crook matches the hunched-forward look such muscle tightening brings about.
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Econetic, I too experience a tenssioning of the muscles, especially along the spine, when energy (kundalini) is rising; although I would not put this phenomena into the kriya category, but under energy (kundalini). And, I believe the iconography of the staff/sword, etc. is more about the rising of energy (kundalini). Another aspect of the staff/shepherd's crook might be related to the kinesthetic charism, in which the subject often feels dizzy, and would therefore need a staff to walk.
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Haha....booted out of a Goenka retreat for spontaneous movement. I hafta let that sink in....
It is true that in group meditation, you feel a certain compulsion to sit absolutely still that is often just not what you should be doing at that moment.
Most of my meditation is done alone now, and yes, there often does arise a sort of spontaneous jerking. I certainly would not allow myself to experience this at a tight Zen Center retreat!!
But then I wouldn't have the foundation for meditating alone if I had not gone to all those Zen Center meetings....so if you are just starting, kids, imho its a good idea to seek out a group and then go off on your own. ;D
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Thank-you, mcarl40, for joining this forum and responding to some of the threads here. Yes, I was booted out of a Goenka retreat for my head spontaneously bobbing when I meditate. I find if I am going to meditate deeply, then I have to relax deeply, and when I do, sometimes the body moves on its own, and that is called a krya in Sanskrit.
When a meditation organization fails to recognize that deep meditation requires deep relaxation, and deep relaxation leads to spontaneous movements, then we have to conclude that meditation organization does not understand meditation.
If we find that we are in a meditation organization that does not understand, or value, deep meditation, then we should either try to change that organization's perspective by informing them, or we need to leave and join with fellow contemplatives who do recognize, understand, and value, deep meditation.
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nikic0825
Hello Mr Brooks,
I just wanted to thank you for posting youtube videos about spontaneous movements and vocalizations. I have brought these phenomena up in a buddhist meditation group that I have attended and they have no idea what I am talking about. My group leader tried to get some information for me but the only response I got was that they agreed that it was kundalini and the dicussion ended there. I havent been able to get any satisfactory explanations for what I am experiencing until now. This is a really important subject that needs to be talked about. Friends and family have no clue what I am trying to explain to them and I think it is important to talk to other people who have experienced the same thing. I am not really afraid of it. I have not felt anything evil or negative during my meditations. It feels natural and healing. I joined a kundalini group but I have not really felt satisifed with the information I have received there. Finding information about it in a buddhist context has been nearly impossible. I have had more luck with a pentecostal explanation but I find that school of thought too limiting. I like how you connect several religions to the experience. I feel like all religions are derived from the same source and I think these related experiences prove my theory. I have only watched a few of your videos but they have been very comforting and informative. Thank you again. I look forward to learning more.
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Hi group!
My name is Nicole. I live in Tennessee. I learned Transcendental Meditation years ago. I have meditated off and on over the years. 20 mins twice a day is the recommeded amount of time. I first noticed some slight movements in my head and neck. I though it was just stress being released. It felt very nice and relaxing. My husband use to sneak in and watch my practice because he found in interesting. I have not been very regular with my practices but within the last year or so, I have had some very interesting developments with my movements. My arm started moving on their own. Very flowing and precise movements. That developed into very specific hand movement which I learned were called kriyas. Then I started humming and chanting. I also rock back and forth. They newest development have been what some call speaking in tongues. That has been very interesting. For awhile I will sound asian then it turns into something like a native american chant. I have also experienced the distinct sound of a bell ringing. I have not had any visual phenomena. Now, when I meditate, I just sit down and the movements and vocalizations start almost immediately. You can imagine how surprising this has been to a southern baptist girl from Tennessee. I did not grow up in a church where we spoke in tongues. This have only been afraid briefly from time to time. The thought that maybe it is a demon has entered my mind. I should have never watched the exorcist. I understand why they burned people at the stake though. It could be quite confusing to one who might observe this. I have never really felt any kind of evil presence. It has felt very natural and healing. I just wanted to talk to others that have experienced the same kinds of things and what there thoughts were on it. Sorry this is so long winded. I am just excited to find others who know what I am talking about
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Welcome, Nicole, and thank-you for posting your experience with spontaneous movement and speech during meditation, and the charismatic sound.
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I had one hour long shake session on a retreat and felt great afterwards. It was uberweird. I initially thought about suppressing the movement which began as a few big jerks from a pained leg, and actually started to get up, then decided to allow and watch as presently as possible. Arms and legs were twitching several inches every few seconds...extreme sobbing...an ugly scene with nothing dancelike or flowing about it, yet I would welcome the experience again. Two years later and still no repeat. I'll get over it.
There was definitley no great depth to this particular meditation, although I think I was working in the right direction when I made the decision to remain seated through the initial discomfort.
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There are a number of explanations for various manifestations of spontaneous movement in a contemplative context. Those various explanations most probably deal with one or more causes, and there might just be many causes to spontaneous movement in a contemplative context.
Spontaneous movement accompanied by tears within a contemplative context can be caused by releasing years of emotional trauma, which can most definitely occur for the contemplative as he or she moves deeper into the religious experience.
Since you have a background, or interest, in Orthodox Christianity, then you are most probably familiar with St Vitus, who was a desert father in the Coptic Christian movement of the first few centuries. He apparently had violent kriyas for which he was burned at the stake for by his neighbors who thought he was possessed.
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I began experiencing kriya simultaneously with a Kundalini awakening. Both occurred as the result of about 4 months of daily breath-focuses walking meditation. The kundalini is now constantly awake, feeling the distinct energy flow in my whole body even as I type this, and it does follow, for the most part, the classical descriptions of the left, right, and central channels, and the numerous chakras. But the background awareness of that energy is different than my experience with it when I stop give myself to dedicated meditation sessions.
When I begin to meditate, I focus solely on the flow of energy. I make no attempt to control the flow, because it has a mind of its own, and knows where it needs to go. The kriya begin almost instantly upon starting meditation, usually with movement of my hands and/or feet. I do these sessions lying on my back. The hands seem to be used for manipulation of the energy, focusing it and moving it. Sometimes the kriya are strange hand mudras, or flourishing whole arm gestures. Many times I will be directed into very complex or difficult yoga positions. Sometimes my movements resemble Tai Chi. I do not direct these movements, only allow them and watch them. But I am completely able to stop them if I wish, but why would I do that? It is clear to me now that the Kundalini is working a healing and transforming process.
I have found that this experience is understood as a natural part of Bhuddist practice, especially in Tibetan Vajrayana, but it is hidden, an esoteric practice reserved for higher level initiates. An American named William Bodri wrote a book about this kundalini energy progression called The Little Book of Herculese. Another book by Master Nan called The Tao of Longevity is also about this. Unfortunately most American Buddhist frown upon kundalini as just another phenomena that should be ignored. That kind of attitude is really just a display of ignorance.
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I began experiencing kriya simultaneously with a Kundalini awakening. Both occurred as the result of about 4 months of daily breath-focuses walking meditation.
Welcome, fqmorris, and thank-you for posting your experience with the religious experience, known as, 'kundalini.' I am not surprised that you had a Kundalini experience after only 4 months of daily breath-focuses walking meditation, because the religious experience does not take long to occur, one just has to decade the time for daily meditation practice. Also, breath meditation does seem to give better results than any other meditation technique reported so far.
The kundalini is now constantly awake, feeling the distinct energy flow in my whole body even as I type this, and it does follow, for the most part, the classical descriptions of the left, right, and central channels, and the numerous chakras.
Becoming aware of the energy flow through the body is just one of many aspects of the religious experience; however, it is good to know that you have found it, and that you are attempting to keep it alive. There is also sound, vision, taste, smell, and kinesthetic manifestations of the religious experience, which are called 'charisms' in Christianity, and 'jhana-nimitta' in the Pali Canon.
But the background awareness of that energy is different than my experience with it when I stop give myself to dedicated meditation sessions.
When I begin to meditate, I focus solely on the flow of energy. I make no attempt to control the flow, because it has a mind of its own, and knows where it needs to go.
This is my experience as well, so I instruct others to just let go and let the charisms do whatever they want, while attending to them.
The kriya begin almost instantly upon starting meditation, usually with movement of my hands and/or feet. I do these sessions lying on my back. The hands seem to be used for manipulation of the energy, focusing it and moving it. Sometimes the kriya are strange hand mudras, or flourishing whole arm gestures. Many times I will be directed into very complex or difficult yoga positions. Sometimes my movements resemble Tai Chi. I do not direct these movements, only allow them and watch them. But I am completely able to stop them if I wish, but why would I do that? It is clear to me now that the Kundalini is working a healing and transforming process.
I have had many experiences with spontaneous movements in the 41 years of my daily meditation practice; and we have had many reports of such movements. I agree, it seems to be best just to let whatever happens happen.
I have found that this experience is understood as a natural part of Bhuddist practice, especially in Tibetan Vajrayana, but it is hidden, an esoteric practice reserved for higher level initiates. An American named William Bodri wrote a book about this kundalini energy progression called The Little Book of Herculese. Another book by Master Nan called The Tao of Longevity is also about this. Unfortunately most American Buddhist frown upon kundalini as just another phenomena that should be ignored. That kind of attitude is really just a display of ignorance.
Yes, I too found most Buddhist movements shun the various charisms, and those who experience them; and I agree "That kind of attitude is really just a display of ignorance." But then all religious marginalize their mystics.
Again welcome, and keep in touch.
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I post this here (kriya thread) because I don't know where a better spot would be.
Being new here, looking around to learn, I see you value highly the term "Mystic." I haven't found a place here where that term is defined. From context, it seems descriptive of an outsider's realm, but should be the center, the norm. So, "mystic" seems to don a robe of rebellion against the mainstream.
On another thought, from your Samadhi thread, it seems I am experiencing jhanas 2 through 4 in recursive waves, but moving to the edge of #5, which I felt briefly last week at the end of a 2 hr session. That feeling of floating without context was a bit scary, so I fell out of it fast. But the peace of it stayed with me afterwards, and I want to go back there, and not fall out of it so quickly.
I know I can't rush things. So I just continue. Sometimes the kundalini is almost painful, but not if I relax in trust. And the bliss is full body waves of orgasm. Who knew sex was spiritual? This bliss/pain cycle keeps going, but is never the same as last time. It isn't boring, but it would be if it didn't keep moving forward. I feel fortunate to have landed in this place of practice, and want to go as far as I can.
Thanks for this forum and your perspective.
David Morris
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I post this here (kriya thread) because I don't know where a better spot would be.
Since spontaneous movement was a feature of your religious experience, then this thread was as good as any to start with. However, since you refer to the Sanskrit term 'kundalini', then you could have put it under that thread. Nonetheless, all of these terms simply refer to specific features of the religious experience,
Being new here, looking around to learn, I see you value highly the term "Mystic." I haven't found a place here where that term is defined. From context, it seems descriptive of an outsider's realm, but should be the center, the norm. So, "mystic" seems to don a robe of rebellion against the mainstream.
My definition of the term 'Mystic' is not mainstream. My definition of the term 'Mystic' is someone who cultivates, and has, religious experiences.
In fact there is nothing mainstream about me or this forum. So, the mainstream is going to feel a sense of rebellion here; and arguably we frequently point out the differences between the mainstream point of view on mysticism, verses an "insider's" point of view.
On another thought, from your Samadhi thread, it seems I am experiencing jhanas 2 through 4 in recursive waves, but moving to the edge of #5, which I felt briefly last week at the end of a 2 hr session. That feeling of floating without context was a bit scary, so I fell out of it fast. But the peace of it stayed with me afterwards, and I want to go back there, and not fall out of it so quickly.
It is understandable that anyone will become frightened about deep religious experiences, partly because the deeper we go the more profound they are. The other reason why there can be fear about these experiences is because the religious experience is not understood, or valued, by the mainstream.
I know I can't rush things. So I just continue. Sometimes the kundalini is almost painful, but not if I relax in trust. And the bliss is full body waves of orgasm. Who knew sex was spiritual? This bliss/pain cycle keeps going, but is never the same as last time. It isn't boring, but it would be if it didn't keep moving forward. I feel fortunate to have landed in this place of practice, and want to go as far as I can.
One moves through the stages of the religious experience as quickly as one wants to, and invests the time and effort to do so. It is understandable that once one taps into the religious experience one wants to make a career out of cultivating them, which makes one a mystic.
The religious experience is often related to the sexual experience, but to me the only thing that makes them similar is they can be profound pleasures.
Thanks for this forum and your perspective.
David Morris
You are welcome, and please do keep filing reports of any progress you make.
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While maintaining mindfulness of the body, I felt energetic flow through my body... And when it reached my arms yesterday, my right hand suddenly jumped into a strange mudra (like an "OK" sign) from the samadhi pose. The strange thing was that it lasted a few seconds then jumped back to exactly where it was. I could feel as if there was some ironing out of energy causing the muscle spasm.
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Yes, blocked energy suddenly releasing does explain in part the various spontaneous movements that are part of the kriya. However, when the body moves into a mudra, or a yoga posture on its own, then we cannot explain it by simply blocked energy suddenly releasing. So, we have to accept that there are multiple phenomena that fall under this class of religious experience.
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I wonder if rapid eye movements like those in REM state or those in deep samadhi like presented here are within this subject:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mv0_njLTfy8&t=1s 1:02
Here Sri Chinmoy 'presents' nirvikalpa samadhi - he can maintain overview effect and his eyes are following the mind issuing thoughts, although he does not need eyes to see it.
Conclusion: Chinmoy is having quasi-spontanous eye movements; sometimes for minutes.
Additional question: is this state or developping and managing this state is awakening factor? I assume so, because sutras say one have to remain equanimous to body and mind. Please correct me.
Can we say that bodily reactions like some of You guys mentioned are sort of necessary while progressing?
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I wonder if rapid eye movements like those in REM state or those in deep samadhi like presented here are within this subject:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mv0_njLTfy8&t=1s 1:02
Here Sri Chinmoy 'presents' nirvikalpa samadhi - he can maintain overview effect and his eyes are following the mind issuing thoughts, although he does not need eyes to see it.
Conclusion: Chinmoy is having quasi-spontanous eye movements; sometimes for minutes.
It is possible. We would have to investigate his life more closely to see if he manifested the superior fruit of attainment. We should not assume, just because some claims to be enlightened, and may have a lot of followers, does not necessitate that the individual is indeed enlightened.
Additional question: is this state or developping and managing this state is awakening factor? I assume so, because sutras say one have to remain equanimous to body and mind. Please correct me.
I do not recall at this time the Pali term for the "awakening factor." However, I do recall that all of the awakening factors are indeed components of the deep meditation experience, or the product there of.
Can we say that bodily reactions like some of You guys mentioned are sort of necessary while progressing?
I believe that we should all come to accept that the phenomena that we have been discussing here are shared experiences in deep meditation.
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I do not recall at this time the Pali term for the "awakening factor." However, I do recall that all of the awakening factors are indeed components of the deep meditation experience, or the product there of.
I mean by that the final liberation achieved by Gotama the Buddha is called awakening which is different state than those reached by others. So I am looking for the missing factor or procedure that is responsible for awakening state. State between Arhat's nirodha samapatti [8th jhana?] and samma sambuddha - final result, 100% purity.
Maybe calling it 'factor' is wrong. I am doing research to be sure how the path looks further, how to prepare for it.
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Janek, the 8th stage of samadhi is called "Nevasannanasannnayatana" in the suttas.
Whereas, nirodha samapatti is full liberation, which occurs after mastering all 8 stages of samadhi. It is a state in which one has no craving; therefore, one is fully liberated, or enlightened.
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Yesterday, for the first time, I experienced involuntary rocking while meditating. Rocked forward - backward, and even up - down! With a frequency of ~ 1.5 - 2 times per second. Sometimes I even doubted whether my physical body makes these movements, but I did not open my eyes. Does this have anything to do with the phantom swaying through which one can get an OBE, or is it just the spontaneous movements that are normal during meditation?
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In my experience, zenbooster, depth in meditation depends upon depth in relaxation, so when I relax deeply I notice my body starts to rock and with several decades of observation of this phenomena I believe it is caused by the pumping of blood along the aorta, while the body is relaxed so that the oscillation is simply a natural phenomena associated with depth in relaxation.
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After observing myself a little more, I was convinced that the reason was not the pumping of blood through the aorta. Too distinct and amplitude movements. Previously, I experienced goose bumps (some call them an autonomous sensory meridian response), now these movements occur much more often.
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Just keeping you posted, if anyone is interested, or maybe someone is going down a similar path...
For two months now, almost as soon as I start meditating, I start experiencing jolts and jerks. Quite strong. Sometimes with pauses, sometimes continuously. You could even say that I'm shaking. Sometimes at such moments I try to relax more. If I stop the shaking with an effort of will, after relaxing it spontaneously starts again. Sometimes I feel increasing tension in my abdominal muscles. I can't say that it's painful or unpleasant, but I hope that in the future it will transform into the right direction. I just try to keep my focus on my breathing.
This can happen even with my eyes open, if you concentrate on your breathing!
10 months ago I started attending hatha yoga once a week, and recently my teacher and I started organizing 30-minute meditation sessions also once a week, but on a different day. There is no shaking in such sessions. Perhaps because in a group it is more difficult to let yourself go as much as it happens at home.
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Thank you, zenbooster, for posting your interesting question. The first thing that we have to establish is whether this is a kriya, or a neurological condition. If your mind is still, and you are experiencing the recognizable components of depth in meditation before these spontaneous movements occur, then it is reasonable to accept that they are indeed kriyas. How often do you meditate? How long is your typical meditation session? How long have you been meditating? Based upon the criteria here what depth in the meditation experience do you believe you are at when these spontaneous movements occur?
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I have been meditating since June 2022. There have been a couple of breaks, but overall I try to meditate at least once a day. Sometimes 2 times a day. With my lifestyle, it is difficult to find time so that you are not disturbed during the time allocated for meditation, or so that you do not fall off your feet from fatigue. Usually I meditate for 20 minutes. I don’t think I have ever gone further than the 3rd jhana. Yes, at the beginning my mind is restless, but after a while I become more and more peaceful while staying on the object of meditation. I also hear tinnitus, and earlier I switched to it as an object of meditation more often than lately. Perhaps it is worth paying more attention to it again... A couple of days ago I again tried to gently stop the shaking, forming in return the intention to remain even more relaxed and at the same time maintaining attention to how the air comes into contact with my nostrils. And it seemed to improve the situation.
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Now after I sent the message I meditated, and there was almost no shaking at all. Probably your forum had a beneficial effect :)
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I have been meditating since June 2022. There have been a couple of breaks, but overall I try to meditate at least once a day. Sometimes 2 times a day.
This is a very good practice strategy, and supports you experiencing jhana; however, we have to also be making an effort to follow the whole of the Noble Eightfold path, not just part of it, because the Noble Eightfold path is a lifestyle not a belief system that produces jhana.
With my lifestyle, it is difficult to find time so that you are not disturbed during the time allocated for meditation, or so that you do not fall off your feet from fatigue.
Do you only practice meditation standing? The suttas describe meditation practice in the 4 basic postures of sitting, standing, walking and lying down. I regularly practice in all four postures and find them useful and productive.
Usually I meditate for 20 minutes.
Most people take 20 minutes of meditation just to get to the first jhana, and I find meditating in hour long intervals fruitful, so it is hard to argue you are experiencing any level of jhana with only a 20 minute meditation session, but it is not impossible.
I don’t think I have ever gone further than the 3rd jhana. Yes, at the beginning my mind is restless, but after a while I become more and more peaceful while staying on the object of meditation. I also hear tinnitus, and earlier I switched to it as an object of meditation more often than lately. Perhaps it is worth paying more attention to it again...
If you are finding peacefulness during meditation then this is the second jhana, and the charismatic sound is the third jhana, so it sounds like you are indeed experiencing depth in meditation, so the spontaneous movements that you are experiencing could be indeed kriya.
A couple of days ago I again tried to gently stop the shaking, forming in return the intention to remain even more relaxed and at the same time maintaining attention to how the air comes into contact with my nostrils. And it seemed to improve the situation.
The point of the charisms, such as kriya is not to stop them, but to allow them to occur naturally, which leads to greater depth in meditation.
Now after I sent the message I meditated, and there was almost no shaking at all. Probably your forum had a beneficial effect :)
I hope that we have been of some help to you. It does sound like you are experiencing depth in meditation. I hope you keep up your practice and consider intensifiying it when you are comfortable doing so.