Fruit of the Contemplative Life
Fruit of the contemplative life: => Meditation techniques => : Alexander March 19, 2012, 07:36:38 PM
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I am very interested in hearing the experiences of you guys on a few topics. For example, what are people's opinions of practices like celibacy? In my experience, it seems there is a relationship between a period of sense restraint, and a superior ability to both apply and sustain attention. But is this just incidental for me, or have many of you noticed the same, ie is there a tie between sense restraint and spiritual energy?
Also, should we see celibacy as a prerequisite or as a product of the religious life?
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I was actually more curious if people noticed a greater amount of energy available to them if they kept an observance of celibacy. I have a couple books on yoga that recommend things for that reason, and I wanted to know if people experienced the same. What you described is more like the reasons for entering the spiritual life. And BTW, I agree, those were my same conclusions when I started this journey 5+ years ago. It is the noble truth, nothing material is satisfactory. :)
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As you may notice, I moved the thread to "Paths and meditation techniques." I was not sure where to put this thread, but kundalini did not seem like the right place for it.
On this subject, I began the daily practice of meditation almost 40 years ago, and I was also celibate at the same time, and at the same time I found ecstatic altered states of consciousness, so there might be a correlation between the two. Nonetheless, I later entered into sexual relationships without losing my access to the ecstasies; however, the distractions that come with relationships did have an impact upon the frequency, duration, and therefore intensity (depth) of my ecstasies.
Over the years I have engaged in celibacy, and almost exactly 12 years ago I took it up again and remain with it, and following that I also intensified my contemplative practices to see how deep I could go in the ecstasies. About a year after that I had one sexual encounter with a contemplative who had more attainment than anyone else I had met. But, it did not turn into a relationship, nor did I experience a loss of the fruit of the contemplative life.
In the religious literature of the world religions there is some literature on celibacy. It is often presented that if the celibate ever broke their celibacy once, then all of their attainments would be lost and they would have a long hard climb back up the "mountain." Well, that was not my experience. My meditations were not disturbed in the least by one sexual encounter with a woman with almost as much attainment as myself.
However, I would argue that there are a number of people on the contemplative journey who are sexual predators. I would count Rajnish and Choigum Trungpa on this list. We find nothing in their literature that suggests that they had anywhere near the attainment that most of us here are reporting. So, I believe there is something to restraint, and there can be something gained in complete sexual abstinence. But, one need not fear one, or infrequent, transgressions of any kind, if one's life is mostly oriented toward an ethical, self-aware contemplative life. I believe this is the middle path between self-abusive, suppressive, religious practices verses licentiousness.
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One of the first people I came across early on (when I knew nothing about Buddhism) was Rajneesh, I even bought a couple of his books. I think a lot of people who are less discriminative get caught up by these cult gurus. To find and appreciate something like the GWV, you need to be critical, what we would call viveka in Hinduism, or diakrisis in Christianity.
And thank you for sharing your experiences with celibacy. It seems like a worthwhile practice, but not something that should be understood so stringently or as such a big deal as the priesthoods make it seem. Thinking about people like Mohammed or some of the yogis who had many wives, it seems the religious attainments are maintainable through sexual activity.
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aglorincz, a large number of people have been influenced by the cult gurus of the 60s and 70s. I was as well, but I took critical thinking skills with me, and dumped the cult gurus as I unpacked them. So, I agree with you, it takes a great deal of critical thinking to wade through the mass of misinformation that pervades all religions. The New Age religions just have their own brand of confusion.
Yes, it is true, some mystics were married and had children. Rumi, Kabir, and Mohammed come to mind. I found that once I had mode it into the immaterial domains, then relationships and sex seem to have no meaning to me any more.
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Regarding sexual abstinence with regard to meditative attainment -- I've found that, over the years since I first became "jhana active" (say, 1995), my craving for sexual activity has decreased markedly. At the same time, being saturated in absorption throughout the day and night, my whole body is drenched in the energy that I once associated with sexual activity -- it's not restricted to the genital region, in other words. There was no conscious choice to restrict sexual activity; it just happened, replaced by something more "whole."
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Regarding sexual abstinence with regard to meditative attainment -- I've found that, over the years since I first became "jhana active" (say, 1995), my craving for sexual activity has decreased markedly. At the same time, being saturated in absorption throughout the day and night, my whole body is drenched in the energy that I once associated with sexual activity -- it's not restricted to the genital region, in other words. There was no conscious choice to restrict sexual activity; it just happened, replaced by something more "whole."
I would have to agree with Michael, my experience was pretty much the same, as I got saturated with bliss, I found I no longer needed sex, and what I got out of sex was very similar to what I get out of the ecstasies, so there is no need for sex.
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I suppose that it is appropriate that my first post to this forum should be on this topic.
I should note that I am a long-term meditator, but have not experienced jhana. I had hoped that as my mediation practice progressed, sexual desire would lessen or at least put it into perspective, but this has not been the case. Actually it has been rather the opposite.
[Although I must say reading over this that one of the primary benefits of meditation practice for me is that I no longer feel a compulsive need to have a partner for the sake of having a partner. And for the record, I definately have some problems with sexual relations...but who doesn't.]
I understand from Ajahn Brahm's talks that he also feels that jhana is of such overwhelming power and beauty that the need for sex all but disappears.
Wow. If only. And I have been trying for how long now? 20 years?
I often think of a passage from Robert Svboda's wonderful Aghora series of books (which has relevance to this forum I think) that goes something like this:
The student laments that his sexual desire is getting out of hand, and that this means his practice must be failing or way off the mark.
The teacher replies: No,no,no! That is how you know you are getting close!
Well....maybe.
In any event, I don't see how anyone can become a monk until he or she has come to terms with this issue. I think a lot of people become monks hoping that simply putting on robes will erase sexual desire, which obviously it doesn't. But maybe people can learn to deal with the desire....I don't think I could.
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I should note that I am a long-term meditator, but have not experienced jhana.
One of the most fundamental reasons why most people who meditate do not experience jhana is they do not recognize that they are indeed experiencing it. So, I suggest that you learn to recognize the signs of jhana. Bliss, and joy are the first signs of jhana, but who knows what bliss is? Almost no one. Bliss, starts with finding the practice of meditation enjoyable and pleasant. So, if you have been meditating for 20 years and never found it enjoyable and pleasant, then see if you can modify your practice in some way so that you find enjoyment and pleasure in the practice of meditation, because that is the first jhana.
The second jhana is the stilling of the mind. So, if you have not yet stilled your mind in 20 years of meditation practice, then most probably you never learned to enjoy and take pleasure in meditation practice.
A key to enjoyment and pleasure in the practice of meditation is learning to relax while meditating. So, if you do not relax when you meditate, then you have been doing it wrong. So, if you learn to relax when you meditate, then most probably you will find jhana quite soon.
I had hoped that as my mediation practice progressed, sexual desire would lessen or at least put it into perspective, but this has not been the case. Actually it has been rather the opposite.
Most people think that meditation only leads to profound altered states of consciousness, while meditation can lead to profound altered states of consciousness it also goes through profound stages of spiritual crisis. And, one of those profound stages of spiritual crisis is a hypersensitive phase which often manifests as heightened sexual arousal. The key is to find some balance between discipline (abstention) and expression. You may find that just exercising a little abstention goes a long way to traversing the spiritual crises.
I understand from Ajahn Brahm's talks that he also feels that jhana is of such overwhelming power and beauty that the need for sex all but disappears.
In this case I would agree with Ajahn Brahm; however, I wish he understood jhana better, because his description is so far off the mark I have wondered if he had ever experienced jhana.
I often think of a passage from Robert Svboda's wonderful Aghora series of books (which has relevance to this forum I think) that goes something like this:
The student laments that his sexual desire is getting out of hand, and that this means his practice must be failing or way off the mark.
The teacher replies: No,no,no! That is how you know you are getting close!
Well....maybe.
In this case I would agree with Robert Svboda.
In any event, I don't see how anyone can become a monk until he or she has come to terms with this issue. I think a lot of people become monks hoping that simply putting on robes will erase sexual desire, which obviously it doesn't. But maybe people can learn to deal with the desire....I don't think I could.
Thinking that putting on the robes will some how magically remove all of one's sins/hindrances is what leads to pedophelia.
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For ease of navigation, GWV perspective on mainstream contemporary mystical guidelines, and navigation; we may consider renaming this thread to "celibacy" or "sexuality and the mystic" under a new main topic perhaps such as "precepts" or something more recognizable. This was a very useful thread, but I skipped over it many times because the title is jibberish to me. Yes, that's my fault for being uneducated, but surely not all mystics seeking guidance are 140+ IQ geniuses with a masters degree in anthropology :) Hell, last I remember, i have a 143, and I passed over this thread often.
Just an idea to make it easier on future visitors and seekers.
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You are smart enough, Jhanon. The thread title has been fixed.
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Ah, cheers! :)
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This sutta presents a strong case for celibacy...
On one occasion the Blessed One was dwelling at Savatthi in
Jeta's Grove, Anathapmdika's Park. Now on that occasion a
mother and a son, being respectively a bhikkhuni and a bhikkhu,
had entered the rains residence at Savatthi. They often
wanted to see one another, the mother often wanting to see
her son, and the son his mother. Because they often saw one
another, a bond was formed; because a bond formed, intimacy
arose; because there was intimacy, lust found an opening.1049
With their minds in the grip of lust, without having given up the
training and declared their weakness, they engaged in sexual
intercourse!1050
Then a number of bhikkhus approached the Blessed One,
paid homage to him, sat down to one side, and reported what
had happened. [68] [The Blessed One said:]
"Bhikkhus, did that foolish man think:'A mother does not fall
in love with her son, or a son with his mother'? (1) Bhikkhus,
I do not see even one other form that is as tantalizing, sensuous,
intoxicating, captivating, infatuating, and as much of an
obstacle to achieving the unsurpassed security from bondage as
the form of a woman. Beings; who are lustful for the form of a
woman—ravenous, tied to it, infatuated, and blindly absorbed
in it1091—sorrow for a long time under the control of a woman's
form. (2) I do not see even one other sound. . . (3) . . . even one
other odor . . . (4) . . . even one other taste. . . (5) . . . even one other
touch that is as tantalizing, sensuous, intoxicating, captivating,
infatuating, and as much of an obstacle to achieving the unsurpassed
security from bondage as the touch of a woman. Beings
who are lustful for the touch of a woman—ravenous, tied to it,
infatuated, and blindly absorbed in it— sorrow for a long time
under the control of a woman's touch.
"Bhikkhus, while walking, a woman obsesses the mind
of a man; while standing . . . while sitting .... while lying
down . . . while laughing . . . while speaking . . . while singing
. : . while crying a woman obsesses the mind of a man. When
swollen,1052 too, a woman obsesses the mind of a man. Even
when dead, a woman obsesses the mind of a man. If, bhikkhus,
one could rightly say of anything: 'Entirely a snare of Mara,' it
is precisely of women that one could say this."1053 [69]
One might talk with a murderous foe,
one might talk with an evil spirit,
one might even approach a viper
whose bite means certain death;
but with a woman, one to one,
one should never talk.
They bind one whose mind is muddled
with a glance and a smile,
with their dress in disarray,
and with gentle speech.
It is not safe to approach1054 such a person
though she is swollen and dead.
These five objects of sensual pleasure
are seen in a woman's body:
forms, sounds, tastes, and odors,
and also delightful touches.
Those swept up by the flood of sensuality,
who do not fully understand sense pleasures,
are plunged headlong into samsara, [into] time,
destination, and existence upon existence,1055
But those who have fully understood sense pleasures
live without fear from any quarter.
Having attained the destruction of the taints,
while in the world, they have gone beyond.
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Jeezes, Michel! You're going to drive people to remove their genitals with that kind of quote. LOL.
I found it much easier to, basically, "make love" to samadhi. This is one of those "wobble effect" scenarios, where someone who learns differently expresses an insight strangely. But, while it's true my sexual appetite was not that of most my brethren, when I began to see samadhi as my lover--not sexual but the transcendental love of higher consciousness--suddenly everything else is a trap.
Because the love of samadhi is more reliable and nearly flawless. And one might think "well I can't reach higher states of consciousness", but this is not so. The "love" of the first jhana comes in the form of joy--for me, at least. For those who do not know my history, I struggled for years to detect and absorb into the joy of jhana. The bliss and the upper states came easy, but the joy didn't.
And, again, in my case, I've found simply resting the awareness tenderly on the warm inner-center of the chest, and cherishing it's embrace--leads to "making love" to samadhi. This is how I am able to cultivate the charism of joy, of love, early on. I am not an arahant, and so I am not aware of all the charisms at once while I pass through the early jhanas. In other words, I haven't mastered the 4 jhanas.
Each jhana I've accessed for so many years now, I'm only now beginning to find the last lingering quality of each one, hiding in the subtle shadows of my own ignorance. At any rate, since Michel, you've heard all this already--this is why I find making love to samadhi to be so effective with celibacy.
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All Daily meditation: enter silence http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/01/16/daily-meditation_n_6486178.html?utm_hp_ref=world&ir=World The drivel goes on and on... Stu