Fruit of the Contemplative Life
Fruit of the contemplative life: => Case Histories with religious experiences => : Jhanon December 15, 2013, 01:39:45 AM
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Hi Friends :)
I will come out and say it right now that for the last two years I've been really enthusiastic and excited about finally finding my way (back) to the contemplative life. I am especially so because of finding the GWV. This is all kind of new to me, and admittedly exciting. And because of that, I apologize if at times if I am "too much". So much has been repressed for so long, and after 20 years of effort to find my way, suddenly everything has come together and come out like a big bang. I know I have a long way to go, still. This post will be long, but it is my sincere hope some will find it helpful, uplifting, comforting, and illuminating.
As a youth, being very happy, energetic, and told I was very intelligent, I was forced at the age of 7 to take Ritalin for "ADHD". This is a significant part of how I found Jhananda and the GWV. I read Michael's blog last week while continuing my 2 year search for credible jhana instruction and he made a comment about how society labels ecstatic individuals as ADHD and medicates them to fit in with the status quo--or something to that effect.
Anyway, I remember at the age of 5 thinking to myself "How can I be sure life isn't some kind of dream, and that everyone and everything else isn't also "me"?" This kind of thinking, my sensitivity, nearly limitless enthusiasm and curiosity is what landed me under this label of ADHD.
Born in a highly dysfunctional family of contemplatives who haven't realized they are contemplatives, and due to the unbalanced state that Ritalin and an inability to fit in with the rest of the herd caused; I gradually spiraled into a deep depression, and was eventually diagnosed with bi-polar depression, and generalized anxiety disorder. I tried to fit in, but what most people were interested in just seemed bland and superficial--something I didn't admit to myself until somewhat recently. This continued to create many other problems as well, such as finding almost no value in what everyone else expected me to do. I was miserable (and often suicidal) from the age of 10 to 25, during which time I spent over 15 years with therapists and psychiatrists, and over 20 different medications (none of which i found effective).
I remember my Mom asked me at 16 what I wanted to be, and at the time I was unaware of meditation, at least on a conscious level. I was also very confused due to repression of most of my early life. After being pressed for an answer, I told her I wanted to be a bum, which in retrospect I know I meant I wanted to become a recluse contemplative...
At 23 I lost my job, my home, my girlfriend, my car, and was trying to get on Social Security Disability so that I could sit and figure everything out (which never happened). Losing everything at 23 was not new to me. Despite how hard I tried with therapy, prescription drugs and alcohol to make worldly life easier, I could never sustain motivation for worldly life, no matter how hard I tried. And so I went through cycles of losing everything. This tends to happen to people diagnosed with "ADHD". And every person I have met like this is also intensely interested in drugs, psychedelics, and/or mystic states.
But this losing everything at 23 was preceded by discovering the teachings of the Buddha. As soon as I read it, despite the fact I could make no sense of it; I KNEW THIS WAS THE WAY OUT. I started to try to meditate, which consisted of me spending 5 minutes trying to get comfortable, and then 3-5 minutes of getting overwhelmed by thoughts and the discomfort of my highly-sensitive senses. I pretty much stopped meditating after a few tries.
I then started using illicit drugs which finally provided some relief. At the age of 26 I began researching the less-discussed forms of healing. Primarily that of psychedelics (can I say that? If not, please feel free to edit). After a few experiences, layers started peeling back. The relief was profound, and suddenly for the first time in over 12 years I began to realize what mattered to me. I spread what I knew to other people with similar difficulties.
I came across a psychedelic forum where some of us members were talking about microdosing. A couple of senior members commented that the others would be better off "tapping into the mind's endogenous psychedelics" through meditation. I did a little bit of research, and saw the link between psychedelics, healing, and meditation. I would then meditate 3-4 times a week for a few months. But a lack of quality study materials and guidance (as I'm sure you've all experienced) caused me to eventually give it up. I continued my psychedelic journey--which did lead to more healing. I began noticing charisms and experiencing kundalini while I listened to music.
Because of the kundalini I listened to music almost non-stop for a year, and it was also very healing. But sometimes I would just experience kundalini and other phenomena during regular moments. I didn't know exactly what it was, but all I knew was it felt amazing. The relief was like opening a gate from which tears of joy flowed often, and I could tell I was healing--this was something important. But there was still some competition between the worldly "young adult" and the ecstatic kid I was at 6 and 7. I tried to utilize this transformation to do worldly things, but another side of me was pulled strongly to meditation and non-physical phenomena. The psychedelic use began to fall away, and I then came across "The Power of Now" by Eckhart Tolle.
I was reading about what he calls the "Inner Body" (a tingling feeling in my hands and feet that I noticed after I finished a few psych journeys), and he was basically walking the reader along in getting in touch with it throughout the body. Then it came to where he instructs the reader to feel it as "one field of energy"; the tingling increased more and more and more, past the limit I thought it would have. I was caught by surprise. My jaw dropped, my mind stopped, and an intensely powerful and blissful kundalini shot down my spin--sending intensifying shockwaves into the energy body vibrations.
My eyes were still open, but I was only seeing light. It was pure ecstasy. Then intuitive insights began to come, faster and faster, and they seemed to magnify the rest of the effects. When it was over, tears of intense relief came. I felt like I had finally returned to the home I didn't realize I had been searching for. Still feeling the kundalini energy in my body, I went downstairs to my friend who had hurt his back and stayed home for the day. Intuitively, I focused on feeling/sending energy from my body into my left hand, then briefly touched his back where it hurt (without letting on to what I was doing or what had happened). He immediately told me that his intense pain strangely disappeared.
It is then that I reflected that a few months ago I had briefly met a person who I somehow knew was special. We had a brief chat, and as I walked away she told me my name (real name) meant "healer". The thought of finding the most powerful way to heal others brought an intense feeling of satisfaction to me. I later healed others with profound success a few other times with other people. Or at least I can't explain their healing otherwise, and I did intentionally make efforts to heal them. I began to connect kundalini with the possibility to heal others.
From that very point I was intent of finding a way to access this whenever I wanted, or even be in that state all day long. I wanted to feel good, and I wanted to heal others. I kept the tactile charism in my awareness all day for 2-3 months, meditated often (with a couple 1st jhana experiences) and I experienced many similar phenomena, but not the super strong kundalini I yearned for. And because of that, I hadn't yet realize I had entered meditative absorption a couple times.
I also watched myself sleep a few times, but was barely aware that it wasn't a dream until I reflected on it later. A few times I also woke up with an intense tactile vibration in my body (which also turned out to be jhana). A couple of those times a milky white light grew to cover my visual field, and I became terrified because I could feel myself somehow being threatened. At the time it seemed some of my identity was going to be destroyed if I continued to place my awareness on the light. I was scared, jumped up and had a couple shots--much to my disappointment immediately afterward.
Then worldly life happened, and I stopped focusing on the charism throughout the day. But I continued to meditate. I spent about a year searching through all the bogus books on meditation, and only a couple brief jhana experiences (again, I wasn't sure it was jhana yet.)
For these last 5 months, I have been considering ordaining, although I couldn't find the confidence to do it because something didn't feel right about the best monasteries I could find. They didn't seem to really know much about jhana or mystical experiences that I had had.
Last week I found out I would have at least a week with minimal obligations in which I determined to meditate and study only. I don't normally do this sort of thing, but I asked in my mind "If I am meant to ordain, please give me a sign this week." I figured, what the hell? What could it hurt. In the back of my mind I wanted jhana as that confirmation. Less than 30 minutes later I came across Michael's blog. That same night I found the GWV. The next day I reviewed the GWV site, asked Jhananda some questions, and that night I attained, beyond a shadow of a doubt, jhana. And since then I have consistently attained it every time I meditate, as well as enjoyed a mild-moderate saturation throughout the day. Needless to say, I have nothing but good things to say so far about Jeffrey and the GWV.
Since then I've learned so much. I finally know where my heart has been (ecstatic contemplation), and I understand so much about my nature that could never make sense before. I felt like I was broken, and that I would never find others like me, but now I know differently. This is just from looking over the videos, essays, listening to the retreat audio, and looking over some of you on the forum. Thanks to meditation, contemplation, and morality, I've left almost all addiction to substances behind.
Thank you so very much, my friends. I look forward to meeting as many of you as possible :)
May we all attain enlightenment in this lifetime.
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Hello Jhanon. Welcome to the forum. You have a very interesting story.
I have also been diagnosed with bipolar by the psychiatric community, and as a result I'm forced to take medication. I'm on 2.5mg of Zyprexa per day, a nasty little drug with all kinds of side effects and extremely difficult to withdraw from if you've taken it over long periods of time. I also take Lamotrigine - it's a mood stabilizer. I wonder sometimes if these antipsychotics interfere with our meditation practice?
You remind me of the individual with healing powers in one episode of Star Trek NG where Worf's broken back is healed by the touch of a healer.
I look forward to reading your future posts.
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Welcome Jhanon, and thank-you for posting your honest case history. Sadly we can see from your case history and Michels, that western values tend to dismiss the mystic and medicate him or her until he or she drools. I was naturally afraid, call that intuition or insight, to reveal the nature of my religious experiences to the psychiatric community, or my family. I did not have such good intuition when it came to the religious professionals, so I was marginalized by every religious and/or contemplative community I came to.
With your case history showing you have quite some attainment already, then, after a year of participating in our programs and contributing to dialog, then I see no reason why the GWV would not be very happy to ordain you and/or certify you as a contemplative philosophy and meditation teacher.
the Great Western Vehicle Ordination Program (http://www.greatwesternvehicle.org/gwvordinationprogram.htm)
Teacher Certification Requirements (http://www.greatwesternvehicle.org/teachercertification.htm)
Healing was a feature of my early work about 40 years ago. I found a natural connection between cultivating the religious experience through deep meditation, and healing. Perhaps, if you are interested, we could work together on developing a jhana and healing program?
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Hello Jhanon. Welcome to the forum. You have a very interesting story.
I have also been diagnosed with bipolar by the psychiatric community, and as a result I'm forced to take medication. I'm on 2.5mg of Zyprexa per day, a nasty little drug with all kinds of side effects and extremely difficult to withdraw from if you've taken it over long periods of time. I also take Lamotrigine - it's a mood stabilizer. I wonder sometimes if these antipsychotics interfere with our meditation practice?
Hi Michael. I have some experience with Zyprexa. It was so expensive that I stayed on it for a very short period of time. I will have to to try to recall how it made me feel and experience life. I only remember chowing down on tons of sweets late at night while I was on it. But, although I wasn't yet aware of charisms or mystical phenomena, I do recall feeling as though a very essential part of life was missing--and I believe I was intuitively sensing a decreased connection/ability to the mystical.
I believe I can help you with your question. When I was using psychedelics for their healing properties (which can simulate or help one enter into mystical experiences), I kept some of my old Zyprexa and other anti-psychotics nearby because they discontinue the psychedelic experience almost immediately when taken. Look it up if you're not familiar with this. In the case the psychedelic experience becomes too much, I could take geodon, and empty it under my tongue. This would end the experience within 10 minutes.
So in that situation, I am very grateful for anti-psychotics. But I am going somewhere with this. Someone I have known very closely for a long time (being a very gifted mystic whom I think has been in the dark night since youth) is or was on anti-psychotics, and as far as I know, these impaired (or at least made them not as apparent) natural charisms and mystical experiences they used to experience. So, while I cannot say with 100 percent conviction Zyprexa would impair your ability to reach mystical states, it does seem probable it will have at least some effect on the meditation experience.
HOWEVER, I encourage you not to worry about that too much. For almost a year I worried that the only remaining mild herb I was taking was getting in the way of attaining jhana. I was so distracted by this and my unsuccessful attempts to force myself off it, that I didn't even realize I had already attained 1st jhana a few times.
Moreover, I do think that the mystical experience loses some of its charisma and benefits when under the continuous influence of some medicines or plants. For example; Jhananda talks of when he quit coffee, he had no energy for a while, despite the fact he was attaining deep absorption. But after a month, suddenly he began getting a lot of energy from meditation (I think that's what he said). My observations with my own herb appear to agree with his. It seems that the mystical experience will take you as much as it can. It appears that the primary effect I use this herb for, will ultimately be replaced by a better, more sustainable yet similar effect from jhana (just like the coffee with jhananda). But it also appears I will have to leave the herb behind to find out :)
Have you been able to attain Jhana? Tell me how deep some of your deeper experiences have gone. What charisms did you experience? Were you on anything at the time?
Welcome Jhanon, and thank-you for posting your honest case history. Sadly we can see from your case history and Michels, that western values tend to dismiss the mystic and medicate him or her until he or she drools. I was naturally afraid, call that intuition or insight, to reveal the nature of my religious experiences to the psychiatric community, or my family. I did not have such good intuition when it came to the religious professionals, so I was marginalized by every religious and/or contemplative community I came to.
With your case history showing you have quite some attainment already, then, after a year of participating in our programs and contributing to dialog, then I see no reason why the GWV would not be very happy to ordain you and/or certify you as a contemplative philosophy and meditation teacher.
the Great Western Vehicle Ordination Program (http://www.greatwesternvehicle.org/gwvordinationprogram.htm)
Teacher Certification Requirements (http://www.greatwesternvehicle.org/teachercertification.htm)
Healing was a feature of my early work about 40 years ago. I found a natural connection between cultivating the religious experience through deep meditation, and healing. Perhaps, if you are interested, we could work together on developing a jhana and healing program?
That is an insightful comparison between western medicine and religious "professionals". I too learned I had to avoid talking about many things with almost all professionals of western medicine, as they would always discount my observations and theories in one way or another. Turns out the direction I always wanted to go with their help, yet they refused to play along, was the way to healing.
And, to be honest, I am still a little bit shocked that it appears so few meditators have found their way to bliss, joy and ecstasy! Or at least that so few are talking about it.
Jeffrey, I would be honored and pleased to be a teacher or in some way help progress the GWV. What you just said, I can't adequately express the deep sense of fulfillment and motivation I feel. I cannot think of anything that would make me happier, nor anything better I can do for others. Except other forms of healing which you also mentioned :) I am working diligently to cultivate kundalini again, and as often as possible (hopefully soon whenever I need to) so as to explore the extent of this ability to heal. So I look forward to the opportunity. Should I apply now?
I would very much like to work together towards developing a jhana and healing program. For what it's worth, I'm also a certified Holistic Health Coach where I studied holistic health of many traditions, including recent evidence, and learning to counsel others. Can you paint me a slightly more detailed picture of what you might have in mind?
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Jason:
Someone I have known very closely for a long time (being a very gifted mystic whom I think has been in the dark night since youth) is or was on anti-psychotics, and as far as I know, these impaired (or at least made them not as apparent) natural charisms and mystical experiences they used to experience. So, while I cannot say with 100 percent conviction Zyprexa would impair your ability to reach mystical states, it does seem probable it will have at least some effect on the meditation experience.
Hello Jason. I feel really sad when I hear stories similar to your friend's of mystics who are labelled crazy, then heavily medicated, and shunned by the rest of the so-called sane world. I've been forced to take Zyprexa for the last 3 years. Everything seems grey and dull while on Zyprexa. It is a benzodiazepine derivative and is highly addictive with extremely unpleasant withdrawal -- lasting several months. It's far worse than heroine withdrawal. I almost died when I went off a similar drug back in 2001. And -- I do not exaggerate this. I turned to alcohol instead to alleviate the withdrawal, which was a big mistake. So I'm telling everyone here to -- beware of this drug. Do your research. It is the drug of choice for psychiatrists for treating schizophrenia and bipolar disorder. I have been meditating everyday for the last year and a half, and I have never gone past the 1st jhana. I wonder if I'll ever go beyond this level while I'm taking Zyprexa. Nobody seems to know, and hopefully we'll hear from someone on this. But if I do get beyond, I'll let the world know -- believe me.
You have experimented with all kinds of drugs and herbs, and seemingly you're still standing. It's very valuable experience that you have, as well as your background in the healing arts. We will all benefit from your wisdom and knowledge. I look forward with enthusiasm and interest to your future posts.
Please refer to me as "Michel" and not "Michael" to avoid confusion in your future posts.
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I apologize, Michel. I don't usually make errors like that.
Yes, it is sad, and Zyprexa (and many other benzo-type drugs) are very dangerous. They might as well let people take opiates or opiate-like medications, which in my experience, are far superior for bi-polar, anxiety and depression when the proper one is used medicinally. And their withdrawals are just about as dangerous as zyprexa and similar medications (which is usually one of the excuses doctors give for not allowing opiates to be used for mental illness).
But the individual has to be interested in getting off medication, rather than dependent on it. It's a slippery slope, and it's unfortunate doctors are afraid to think outside of the medical box. But I also see why they are. It's a very complicated situation, and that is what led me to conclude the only way (for me) was to trust myself to do things my way in an effort to transcend all of it. I knew this meant I would have to invest years of study, experimentation, and take risks, but so far it has paid off.
Seems like you might be trying to transcend it all as well? Or at least we had similar paths to meditation. When I find time, I will look over your meditation records. Perhaps I can be of assistance--but perhaps it will be the other way around :D
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You have experimented with all kinds of drugs and herbs, and seemingly you're still standing. It's very valuable experience that you have, as well as your background in the healing arts. We will all benefit from your wisdom and knowledge. I look forward with enthusiasm and interest to your future posts.
Most people don't see it that way because of external pressures from society. And so I appreciate your words here. I am not a junkie--I've only ever used substances in an effort to heal. And I always stayed away from the ones with no medicinal value or too high of risks. Every plant is on this planet for a reason, and it is interwoven with humanity. We appear to have evolved alongside these plants and animals for quite a while, and so it is only natural that they would offer us benefits and uses so that we would cultivate more of them. It isn't much different than how an animal evolves to develop survival techniques and characteristics. But now that we have introduced technology and so many rapid changes to society, it is becoming difficult for nature to continue benefiting humanity in this way. And this complicates things further. At least this has been my observation.
I hope I can be of help. There are few worldly experiences better than assisting fellow beings.
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Jason:
But the individual has to be interested in getting off medication, rather than dependent on it. It's a slippery slope, and it's unfortunate doctors are afraid to think outside of the medical box. But I also see why they are. It's a very complicated situation, and that is what led me to conclude the only way (for me) was to trust myself to do things my way in an effort to transcend all of it. I knew this meant I would have to invest years of study, experimentation, and take risks, but so far it has paid off.
I like your approach to all of this. It's intelligent and skillfull.
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And, to be honest, I am still a little bit shocked that it appears so few meditators have found their way to bliss, joy and ecstasy! Or at least that so few are talking about it.
I too had a lot of trouble accepting that most people who claim to meditate get nothing out of it, but when I found such a negative response from the contemplative community to my case history, there could be only one explanation.
Jeffrey, I would be honored and pleased to be a teacher or in some way help progress the GWV. What you just said, I can't adequately express the deep sense of fulfillment and motivation I feel. I cannot think of anything that would make me happier, nor anything better I can do for others. Except other forms of healing which you also mentioned :) I am working diligently to cultivate kundalini again, and as often as possible (hopefully soon whenever I need to) so as to explore the extent of this ability to heal. So I look forward to the opportunity. Should I apply now?
Application accepted.
I would very much like to work together towards developing a jhana and healing program. For what it's worth, I'm also a certified Holistic Health Coach where I studied holistic health of many traditions, including recent evidence, and learning to counsel others. Can you paint me a slightly more detailed picture of what you might have in mind?
I believe that Michael and Karen Hawkins are interested in the same subject, so let us all start a dialog on it, and see where it goes.
Hello Jason. I feel really sad when I hear stories similar to your friend's of mystics who are labelled crazy, then heavily medicated, and shunned by the rest of the so-called sane world. I've been forced to take Zyprexa for the last 3 years. Everything seems grey and dull while on Zyprexa...
I too am saddened by the way the world treats its mystics. I have been aware for a long time that what is called schizophrenia is very similar to the religious experience. Perhaps this is work for the GWV.
I have been meditating everyday for the last year and a half, and I have never gone past the 1st jhana. I wonder if I'll ever go beyond this level while I'm taking Zyprexa.
Zyprexa should not interfere with the stilling of the mind, when you can still your mind, then you are in the 2nd jhana, so just work on stilling your mind. When you are well established in a still mind, then you will be able to deal with withdrawing from, and convincing your psychiatrist, to with draw from Zyprexa.
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Michel, you say you are "forced" to take this medication. Do you feel comfortable elaborating what you mean by that? Do you mean you are court ordered to do as your psychiatrist says or something? If you're not comfortable elaborating, or would prefer to message me, I understand.
I think Jhananda has a good point to work on cultivating the mental qualities jhana can bring. Tranquility, equanimity, etc. I doubt Zyprexa can interfere with that. Or try to cultivate anything which even shows a little bit of itself, like that sensation in your head. Experiment on the level of cause to make the qualities deeper, and see what happens.
My experience with altered or higher states has lead me to believe these states, like jhana, will meet us where we are at. With the mental quietude which provides us a vantage point over cause and effect, it shows us what is left to relinquish and hints at how much more it can offer as we relinquish more and more. Now I am not necessarily saying that is only Zyprexa for you (or the herb for me), as you will see next: Despite often reaching deep states, i have trouble really giving myself to the experience. The ever-vigilant mediator and relief of a dysfunctional abusive family is there telling me not lose myself too much in the experience, and to watch over my shoulder. Perhaps this is even the source of why I still use the herb.
So because of that part of the psyche, my experiences of jhana often feel empty--as it seems Jhananda is aware of. I have had some wonderful moments in the last two years, mostly during music, where this pained side of my psyche takes a back seat, and it feels so good. It is a massive relief to let that part go. In fact, I am just now realizing all of this, AND starting to think this part of the psyche might also be the cause of the headaches I get after a deep jhana and the lack of kundalini I experience while in jhana! So that really goes to show what I am getting at here.
But anyway, I know it is there and possible to let go of more baggage. For me, it seems I am always removing small pebbles, one at a time, and sometimes (like while listening to music, especially lately) the big rocks budge and I feel what it would be like if I totally removed them. One day soon, probably while listening to music, I will take a snapshot of what happens to cause me to relinquish that part of the psyche. Then during jhana I will work at recreating that cause until I feel the effect of relief and joy which confirms I found it. And since it will feel good, I will be naturally inclined to repeat it until it's solidly in place. And I am willing to bet this is the basic kind of way that most contemplatives will release their baggage. Jhana is like a laboratory where we are both scientist and guinea pig--and the effect we are looking to create is more fulfillment, joy, bliss, ecstasy etc.
So my point is to observe and experiment at the level of cause, and keep an eye out for effect, especially during jhana, whether we are on Zyprexa/Herb or not. This may all sound obvious, but as I've just realized all this while typing, there is an extra power that comes with consciously knowing we are looking for the causes of what is wholesome and unwholesome.
This all came out a bit random and unstructured, but it feels significant. Just typing this out has helped ME immensely, and I hope it will do so for you and others as well.
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Michel, you say you are "forced" to take this medication. Do you feel comfortable elaborating what you mean by that? Do you mean you are court ordered to do as your psychiatrist says or something? If you're not comfortable elaborating, or would prefer to message me, I understand.
No, not by court order. It's quite complicated in my case, it's a combination of: family politics, private insurance, power of attorney, threat of being placed in a group home, etc... Thanks for your advice.
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Michel, you say you are "forced" to take this medication. Do you feel comfortable elaborating what you mean by that? Do you mean you are court ordered to do as your psychiatrist says or something? If you're not comfortable elaborating, or would prefer to message me, I understand.
No, not by court order. It's quite complicated in my case, it's a combination of: family politics, private insurance, power of attorney, threat of being placed in a group home, etc... Thanks for your advice.
That does sound complicated. I am sorry. I'm also sorry if the big long page I wrote out wasn't helpful. It began small, and then I started realizing things. I figured since I was realizing them while attempting to be of use to you, maybe I should lay them out like I did. In your case, maybe because it hits close to home for me, I really want to be of use to you. A big part of what motivated me when I wasn't getting results I wanted in my practice, was that I really wanted to finally be of use to my family and friends who were all in the same boat with me of complicated situations, medications, and psychiatrists.
Anyway, I haven't seen you post much lately. I hope your practice is going well.
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... I really want to be of use to you. A big part of what motivated me when I wasn't getting results I wanted in my practice, was that I really wanted to finally be of use to my family and friends who were all in the same boat with me of complicated situations, medications, and psychiatrists.
Anyway, I haven't seen you post much lately. I hope your practice is going well.
You are of use, Jhanon. Like everyone else I learn from your comments. These days I'm busy doing a lot of reading. I've noticed that I like getting away from the forum since it is distracting to the practice. And I hate writing. If I could I would totally isolate myself in a permanent retreat. A good place for a guy like me would be a life sentence in solitary confinement in a good old fashion Canadian penitentiary with health care, 3 squares and internet access. What more could a contemplative possibly want. Anyways I'm lying low for now.
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... I really want to be of use to you. A big part of what motivated me when I wasn't getting results I wanted in my practice, was that I really wanted to finally be of use to my family and friends who were all in the same boat with me of complicated situations, medications, and psychiatrists.
Anyway, I haven't seen you post much lately. I hope your practice is going well.
You are of use, Jhanon. Like everyone else I learn from your comments. These days I'm busy doing a lot of reading. I've noticed that I like getting away from the forum since it is distracting to the practice. And I hate writing. If I could I would totally isolate myself in a permanent retreat. A good place for a guy like me would be a life sentence in solitary confinement in a good old fashion Canadian penitentiary with health care, 3 squares and internet access. What more could a contemplative possibly want. Anyways I'm lying low for now.
LOL! Wow! Prison in Canada sounds lovely! :o
And you are right about the forum. I've never felt much like I belonged in a forum previously, so I find myself on here a little more than I should. But as you can see above, I also learn a lot. Perhaps I should be working on saturation instead of responding here. Point taken.
I also need to find some new reading material. Maybe Rumi.
Be well, friend.
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NOTE: I have not found this information ANYWHERE else, including that of meditation teachers.
I know many people who have "ADHD", and every one of them is spiritually inclined. David Wolfe once said "ADHD is attention directed to a higher dimension." I actually found this basically true, and have yet to meet someone who has ADHD and isn't spiritually inclined. As someone who struggled to discover if I needed to be absolutely clean of psychoactive drugs or not in order to attain samadhi, I feel it is my responsibility to address it clearly--especially for anyone who has been diagnosed with ADHD. I will not go into detail here about my thoughts on ADHD. Suffice it to say, it is a condition.
In my extensive experience, NO, one does not need to abstain from all psychoactive substances in order to have access to samadhi. Some might benefit from "going it clean," but I, and most who have ADHD I've met do not. I was diagnosed with ADHD when I was very young, and there is no question that I am a "classic case."
I've found the better I am medicated, the quicker and deeper I enter samadhi. There are, of course, many other things to consider when attempting to develop samadhi. But it is my conclusion, that generally speaking, someone with ADHD who is medicated daily with a stimulating substance such as Adderall, Provigil, or even lower doses of opioids, will do better than if they were to concern themselves with going "clean."
Please, do not attempt to convince me that no one needs medicine, they just need to evolve, enlighten and adapt. As much I wanted this to be true, and I tried to make it true--it simply isn't. If one who thinks this had access to all knowledge of my lifestyle, diet, and profession, there would be nothing more to talk about.
Now, for the benefit of those who have ADD or ADHD, I will list the medicines I've had tremendous success with. The first listed, Provigil (Modafinil), was in my system for the first time when I finally established myself in samadhi.
- Provigil (Modafinil)
- Adderall (and similar amphetemine class medicines)
- Ritalin (methylphenidate)
- Opiates/Opioids (In smaller doses, most opiates/opioids are stimulating more than they are sedating)
Please, allow me to stress that so-called "recreational" (higher) doses of these medicines are not effective for samadhi. I do not encourage anyone to abuse these medicines for any reason. It's not logical. Instead, I encourage people to find their "happy medium." Strive balance in all areas of your life. Find what actually works, and try to use at as an ally, rather than abusive. Medicines are a lot like relationships. If you use, instead of utilize and appreciate, it will only lead to difficulty.
Lastly, let it be noted that i personally respond far better to instant release versions of any medicine. The "extended" or "sustained" release versions of these medicines I found to be extremely detrimental.
What medications, medicines or plants help you most may be different for you at different stages of your life. I am by no means saying that only the listed medicines will work well for you. Use your logic, reason, and critical thinking.
I have endeavored to impart hard-earned, straight-forward wisdom I've attained in my 6 year meditation practice. As I have found this information NO WHERE else on the internet, I hope you find it useful
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Thank-you, Jhanon, for posting more information regarding learning to meditate deeply with the medications used for treating ADHD. I know others who find themselves in that situation would be very interested in what you have to say on the subject. I have not had to learn to meditate while under the influence of the medications used for treating ADHD, so I would not know how to do so, but you have learned to meditate deeply under these conditions. So, I hope that you do not mind that I merged your recent post with another you posted on this subject.
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It was a reasonable merge, although I consider it high priority to be as high visibility as possible. I feel strongly about the content of the specific post we are referring to, and I think I made it clear why it is so important.
I spent years trying to meditate without any medicines or medications or anything in my system. I just couldn't get it. Hell, I couldn't sit still! It was agony!
And then the first time I use an ADHD medicine since then, and I establish in samadhi the same day? More to the point, if I take a "vacation" from these medicines, I barely hold 2nd jhana.
I just want to make it clear that I've had confirmed experiences in 5th samadhi, which so far has been impossible without the aid of stimulants. I got here through psychedelics, and I established samadhi through cross-referencing the mechanics of my psychedelic experiences with what was plainly discussed on here. And of course, the aid of provigil.
I think I recall reading somewhere in the discourses that the Buddha and/or his disciples used various herbs to make teas, which would help them stay alert and practice longer. I can not provide proof.
I would like to think that the path to the superior fruit is not riddled with dogma. And holding a belief that in general, meditating with the aid of medicines or plants is advised against, is not something I can jive with. One of the qualities of the Buddha's teachings that most attracted me to them was the openness, acceptance and humility he held for all aspects of life.
Everyone is different. There are the core mechanics of samadhi that can't really be messed with. But how a human comes to successfully establish those mechanics is up to their own critical thinking.
I feel that the more paths to The Path which are available and discussed, the higher probability of empowering more humans to free themselves.
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Jhanon, my research shows that many of those who have arrived at the religious experience took mind altering drugs at one time or another; however, if we conclude that the reason why they arrived at the religious experience was due to consuming mind altering drugs, then we will be surely mislead. And, if we are mislead this way, by taking mind altering drugs on a consistent basis to have a religious experience, then we are not likely to have the transformational experience of being freed from addictive behavior.
Now, on the subject of so-called mental health diagnoses such as: Bi-Polar, PTSD, ADHD, Anxiety, etc., we have seen that in some cases those who have had religious experiences are frequently misdiagnosed as having a mental health diagnosis. If we examine the DMS IV we find that the mental health professional is completely unprepared for understanding the religious experience. If we examine religion we find religion has no idea what a religious experience is. Consequently those who have religious experiences are often misunderstood by everyone, and frequently end up on psychiatric medication; and this psychiatric medication often times becomes an addictive substance, that has a profoundly debilitating effect on the brain chemistry of the patient.
So, perhaps at this time you are dependent upon psychiatric medication to even meditate, or get through your day. I believe that you will be better served if you figure out how to withdraw from your psychiatric medications; and if so doing your behavior becomes different from mainstream behavior does not mean that you are ill or wrong. After all the mystics of the past and present do not have the same values and behavior of the mainstream population, but that difference does not make the mystic bad, evil or insane. To me it makes the herd insane and the mystics sane.
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Are there not foods which agree with you, and some foods which don't? Have you not drunk beer to abate painful symptoms, sometimes so you could meditate?
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An argument in support of consuming psychiatric drugs was unfortunately expected from me reporting discovering for myself that beer, and other fermented foods containing Anthocyanins and other anti-inflammatories, improved my health. I have found that the moderate consumption of fermented foods are healthy foods, not just for me but for the general population; however, people tend to have trouble with moderation.
One knows when one's path is true when one's path leads to good physical and emotional health, freedom from neuroses and addiction. If your psychiatric drugs lead to good physical and emotional health, freedom from neuroses and addiction, then it is a true path.
Each person is responsible for their journey through life. If we are skilled at mindful self-awareness, then we will know what is good for us, and what is not, and do what is good for us, when it is needed, and avoid what is not good for us.
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I have also been diagnosed with bipolar by the psychiatric community, and as a result I'm forced to take medication. I'm on 2.5mg of Zyprexa per day, a nasty little drug with all kinds of side effects and extremely difficult to withdraw from if you've taken it over long periods of time.
The following article describes the difficuly in withdrawing from Zyprexa (also known as Olanzapine), an antipsychotic that I'm taking for my bipolar condition. By the way, Jhananda, the article comes from the Meds Center’s Arizona addiction treatment facility which just happens to be in Sedona. To the best of my knowledge, there is no equivalent withdrawal facility in the city I live in.
This is the website I got the below article from: http://www.alternativetomeds.com/articles/zyprexa-withdrawal.html
Zyprexa Withdrawal
Users of this psychiatric drug who run into Zyprexa withdrawal symptoms can face one of the most difficult of any medication withdrawal process. Alternative to Meds Center Arizona addiction treatment program has developed effective Zyprexa withdrawal help techniques to provide relief from withdrawal complications and simplify this occurrence. At our Sedona withdrawal help center, we know that there are other answers to problems than taking psych drugs for the rest of a lifetime. Do you wish you could see yourself, or someone you love live the life that you know in your heart is possible?
Antipsychotic withdrawal is a major side effect of this drug that can inevitably occur upon discontinuation of its use. There are comfortable ways of coming off Zyprexa and there are uncomfortable ways. For example, bad ways to withdrawal include: quitting Zyprexa “cold turkey”, withdrawing by one’s self without any support, and generally not having the proper environment or knowledge to withdrawal from an antipsychotic drug in a comfortable manor. Good ways to withdrawal from this drug include: having a structured plan for alternative treatment, cleansing the body in a rehab center with Zyprexa withdrawal treatment, and very slowly weaning this drug out of the system to avoid acute withdrawal. Having a plan for alternative treatment is a very important part of successful, safe and comfortable withdrawal.
This medication does not cure mental disorders or symptoms, it may cover them up while the drug is in your system but once it is out of your system; all of the symptoms of underlying mental conditions will return. Abrupt withdrawal from Zyprexa from this drug will reemerge symptoms in a worsened state. Another very important aspect of withdrawal is properly removing it from your body. Slowly getting it out of your system by reducing your dosage a little bit every few days or every week will allow the body and mind to adjust properly and withdrawal symptoms will be lessened. Tardive dyskinesia is one of the concerning symptoms that is possible to occur during this withdrawal. Tardive dyskinesia is a movement disorder that causes involuntary movements and trouble with controlling limbs, and only appears during or after antipsychotic withdrawal. This is one obvious reason why it is so important to have Zyprexa withdrawal treatment in order to manage this experience in the safest and most effective way possible.
The most important aspect of antipsychotic withdrawal is having the right support, Zyprexa discontinuation is no joke, and it is something to take seriously; the best setting to withdrawal from this drug is in a rehab that is capable of offering treatment for prescription drug withdrawal. Withdrawing alone at home without Zyprexa withdrawal help often leads back to use of the drug because of the unbearable withdrawal symptoms. The symptoms are not hard to deal with when the right resources are available, while withdrawing from an antipsychotic there are many healing activities that will not only feel good but will also aid in the process of withdrawing this drug from the body. Swimming, yoga, and other forms of exercise such as walking are excellent activities as they will produce endorphins (the body’s natural pain relievers) and build confidence.
In rehab, talk therapy is one of the activities that patients participate in and it makes a huge difference. Whether you are doing a rehab program or not, counseling may be one of the most helpful activities during withdrawal. In talk therapy, you can discover how to deal with mood swings and mental triggers without antipsychotic drugs, you can talk about how antipsychotic withdrawal makes you feel (emotionally, mentally, physically, spiritually), and learn the tools you will need to handle mental issues in a healthy way. Some of the Zyprexa withdrawal effects include: insomnia, resurgence of underlying mental problems and symptoms, loss of appetite, dizziness, hot or cold flashes, abnormal sweating, anxiety, depression, feeling suicidal, hallucinations, strange behavior, loss of energy, and tardive dyskinesia.
These symptoms of withdrawal occur because antipsychotic drug use causes excitatory Dopamine to be restricted, and alters the brain in the synapse. Dopamine is what arouses the original nerve’s impulse to the receptors of the next nerve, and the synapse is the location in the brain where one nerve can talk to another nerve. When the drug is causing Dopamine to be low, the neurology is altered and creates more Dopamine receptors. Then when a person stops taking the drug, additional Dopamine is available to be released, but now it is impacting excessive Dopamine receptors. If the person has been drinking coffee, eating sugary foods or smoking cigarettes for stimulation while they were taking the drug, these things may be added to the effect of withdrawal.
Alternative to Meds Center Sedona withdrawal help techniques include the following methods to successfully alleviate withdrawal when quitting Zyprexa. We first lab test to see what may have been the cause of the originating issues, often finding toxicity as the problem, so we work on clearing the person out. Our program is focused on use of natural substances for stabilization of neurochemistry, cleansing of environmentally accumulated neurotoxins, targeted nutrition therapy, IV amino treatment, peer support, personal training, yoga, massage therapy and several other therapies to combat expected symptoms of withdrawal when stopping Zyprexa.
Alternative to Meds Center’s Arizona addiction treatment facility is producing success every day. There are graduations held each week at our center in tribute to our participants’ amazing achievements. Around 50 individuals come to each of the graduations; these individuals include the other residents, and the friends and family of the participant. There have been some truly mind-boggling tales told during these engagements, sometimes they retell of years (or decades) that have been spent in extreme and absurd suffering, but told now with clarity that you can hardly believe. This is always an inspiration to us when we get to see this knowing our participants gain everything they need while they’re here to continue living their live happily and healthily. We encourage you to call us and talk, so you can receive an idea about the sort of Zyprexa withdrawal help available.
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Thank-you, Michel, this was very useful information.
Tardive dyskinesia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tardive_dyskinesia)
Tardive dyskinesia /ˈtɑrdɨv ˌdɪskɨˈniːʒə/ is a difficult-to-treat and often incurable form of dyskinesia, a disorder resulting in involuntary, repetitive body movements. In this form of dyskinesia, the involuntary movements are tardive, meaning they have a slow or belated onset.[1] This neurological disorder most frequently occurs as the result of long-term or high-dose use of antipsychotic drugs,[Note 1] or in children and infants as a side effect from usage of drugs for gastrointestinal disorders.
Tardive dyskinesia is characterized by repetitive, involuntary, purposeless movements. Some examples of these types of involuntary movements include:[3]
Grimacing
Tongue movements
Lip smacking
Lip puckering
Pursing of the lips
Excessive eye blinking
Alternative to Meds Center (http://www.alternativetomeds.com/)
Alternative to Meds Center is a world authority on the subjects of biochemical correction of addiction and alternatives to psychiatric drugs. We handle residential drug and alcohol rehabilitation, as well as specialized care for a tapering medication withdrawal. We also have a relationship with a nearby hospital who handles acute cases needing detox or medical stabilization.
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I still have a zyprexa left from my month long use of it about 5 years ago. It's there for any of my friends who still use psychedelics and require an "about pill", as anti-psychotics are very strong in doing so. Just pop it under your tongue, and suddenly what would have been a 8 hour long trip turns into just another day. Lol.
I wonder if you've come off Zyprexa yet, Michel? If not, have you had any visions in meditation? I still think your original concern about zyprexa interfering with more immersive states to be quite valid, especially after researching how zyprexa works on the brain. And considering similar effect states have been completely ended with zyprexa, as stated above.
I will be pleasantly surprised if you're on it but have had some visions or more immersive states since I last talked with you.
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I wonder if you've come off Zyprexa yet, Michel? If not, have you had any visions in meditation? I still think your original concern about zyprexa interfering with more immersive states to be quite valid, especially after researching how zyprexa works on the brain. And considering similar effect states have been completely ended with zyprexa, as stated above.
I will be pleasantly surprised if you're on it but have had some visions or more immersive states since I last talked with you.
I haven't stop taking Zyprexa due to a number of reasons. One being the potential for a dreadful withdrawal.
I went through benzodiazepine withdrawal back in 2001, I had been taking large doses of Cloneazepine, a minor tranquilizer similar to Valium, for over a 20 year period - and it nearly literally killed me, even though I tapered down to lower and lower doses. I was determined to get off these drugs on my own, and I especially didn't want the psychiatrists to get involved. The withdrawal symptoms I experienced were: severe heart palpitations, splitting headache, gut wrenching anxiety, I was totally agoraphobic, I had trouble walking due to feeling off balance, along with severe tinnitus, burning lips, hands and feet, and I had terrifying nightmares and thus was afraid to sleep. I also had gross perceptual distortions: I thought humans looked extremely ugly - especially their ears; I recall eating a can of sardines, they tasted like peanut butter. My legs and back were very stiff, some sort of muscle seizure. This went on for some 3 months and then I became manic and was carted out to the mental hospital by the police. It could have been benzodiazepine withdrawal induced mania. They put me back on a benzodiazepine for while, then the flaming genius of a psychiatrist I had decided to quickly taper me off the benzodiazepine. When I got out of the hospital, I went into a severe depression and was beginning to go into withdrawal again. I decided I never wanted to see another psychiatrist for the rest of my life, so I stopped taking all their drugs and got some Cloneazepine from a friend and started drinking heavily. The booze allowed me to get off the drug, and I managed to stay away from the psychiatrist for some 10 years, but 10 years later I managed to pickle my liver, and I became manic after I completely stopped drinking.
I've not had any "visions or more immersive states " while taking Zyprexa, Jhanon.
So, I feel strongly that we shouldn't mess around with these drugs. They're dangerous. Careful Jhanon. And stay away from these crazy psychiatrists if you can.
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An argument in support of consuming psychiatric drugs was unfortunately expect from me discovering for myself that beer, and other fermented foods containing Anthocyanins and other anti-inflammatories. I have found that the moderate consumption of fermented foods are healthy foods, not just for me but for the general population; however, people tend to have trouble with moderation.
One knows when one's path is true when one's path leads to good physical and emotional health, freedom from neuroses and addiction. If your psychiatric drugs lead to good physical and emotional health, freedom from neuroses and addiction, then it is a true path.
Each person is responsible for their journey through life. If we are skilled at mindful self-awareness, then we will know what is good for us, and what is not, and do what is good for us, when it is needed, and avoid what is not good for us.
This was an excellent, excellent response, Jhananda. I agree with your reasoning, and will not pretend To have unshakable confidence that drugs used medicinally and daily are a necessity. In truth, I know my past experience, I know my present experience, and I know they are suggestive of a conclusion. However, I also know that the path of enlightenment is filled with surprises.
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I wonder if you've come off Zyprexa yet, Michel? If not, have you had any visions in meditation? I still think your original concern about zyprexa interfering with more immersive states to be quite valid, especially after researching how zyprexa works on the brain. And considering similar effect states have been completely ended with zyprexa, as stated above.
I will be pleasantly surprised if you're on it but have had some visions or more immersive states since I last talked with you.
I haven't stop taking Zyprexa due to a number of reasons. One being the potential for a dreadful withdrawal.
I went through benzodiazepine withdrawal back in 2001, I had been taking large doses of Cloneazepine, a minor tranquilizer similar to Valium, for over a 20 year period - and it nearly literally killed me, even though I tapered down to lower and lower doses. I was determined to get off these drugs on my own, and I especially didn't want the psychiatrists to get involved. The withdrawal symptoms I experienced were: severe heart palpitations, splitting headache, gut wrenching anxiety, I was totally agoraphobic, I had trouble walking due to feeling off balance, along with severe tinnitus, burning lips, hands and feet, and I had terrifying nightmares and thus was afraid to sleep. I also had gross perceptual distortions: I thought humans looked extremely ugly - especially their ears; I recall eating a can of sardines, they tasted like peanut butter. My legs and back were very stiff, some sort of muscle seizure. This went on for some 3 months and then I became manic and was carted out to the mental hospital by the police. It could have been benzodiazepine withdrawal induced mania. They put me back on a benzodiazepine for while, then the flaming genius of a psychiatrist I had decided to quickly taper me off the benzodiazepine. When I got out of the hospital, I went into a severe depression and was beginning to go into withdrawal again. I decided I never wanted to see another psychiatrist for the rest of my life, so I stopped taking all their drugs and got some Cloneazepine from a friend and started drinking heavily. The booze allowed me to get off the drug, and I managed to stay away from the psychiatrist for some 10 years, but 10 years later I managed to pickle my liver, and I became manic after I completely stopped drinking.
I've not had any "visions or more immersive states " while taking Zyprexa, Jhanon.
So, I feel strongly that we shouldn't mess around with these drugs. They're dangerous. Careful Jhanon. And stay away from these crazy psychiatrists if you can.
My observations, experiences, and study all confirm your post. Benzo's and anti-psychotics are extremely dangerous. In my own studies, I have found them to be more dangerous than heroin. But not as dangerous as psychiatrists. I've been studying and experimenting with medicine ever since my Mother had me put on Ritalin at 7 years old.
There are some general rules to drugs, and these general rules I've found useful. One: if the drug is man-made and has no close counterpart in the natural world (barbiturates, benzo's, anti-psychotics, etc), then it should be avoided at all costs, except in brief use/emergency. Generally speaking, man-made drugs should be avoided at all cost unless absolutely necessary. It is pretty obvious that natural drugs have had an unknown and lengthy period of time to evolve in balance with humans and the rest of the world. Anything man-made, including the computer, brings enormous complication and difficulty for humanity. Unfortunately, more and more of "modern society" is filled with these man-made imbalances, which has led to more and more use of manmade "solutions", such as the various medications we've discussed. The only solution is to leave as much of it behind as possible. Unfortunately, I have a one year old and not yet the means to do so.
Michel, I am very sorry for the difficulties you recounted. You're not alone. But let me say that I encourage you to continue trusting your own judgment and research (google!) over any "medical professionals." At present, after at least 20 different, so-called "best" doctors failed me miserably, I only have one that prescribes me what I ask for (within reason.) And I hope to soon have completed my efforts to again allow me the means of freedom from them altogether, while still contributing adequately for my family.
Lastly, it pains me greatly to hear that you haven't yet proved Zyprexa not responsible for your concerns about charisms. I was very much hoping when I came back to te forum that you would have proved Zyprexa not responsible for charism-blocking, even though my experience and study suggested otherwise. I still go on hoping that either it isn't responsible, or the possibility of safely resolving it. My apologies if it is difficult to read what I just said. I have one Zyprexa left from a long time ago. Also, since I am consistently saturating on charisms during meditation, I may, if you want, consider taking it and seeing if I can get the same saturation in charisms while under it's effect. That is the kindest thing I can think to do--if you share my same concerns about Zyprexa and charisms. I don't know if you recall why I have that suspicion about it, but I discussed it with you in earlier discussions.
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My observations, experiences, and study all confirm your post. Benzo's and anti-psychotics are extremely dangerous. In my own studies, I have found them to be more dangerous than heroin. But not as dangerous as psychiatrists. I've been studying and experimenting with medicine ever since my Mother had me put on Ritalin at 7 years old.
This site is on benzodiazepine withdrawal. It is one of the best I have found. They've worked out a withdrawal protocol.
http://www.benzo.org.uk/manual/bzcha01.htm
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I don't suspect I will need it, but it is good to have it. Thank you.
I edited my earlier response to include more information, if you want to read it again. I offered something you might find helpful.
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Lastly, it pains me greatly to hear that you haven't yet proved Zyprexa not responsible for your concerns about charisms. I was very much hoping when I came back to te forum that you would have proved Zyprexa not responsible for charism-blocking, even though my experience and study suggested otherwise. I still go on hoping that either it isn't responsible, or the possibility of safely resolving it. My apologies if it is difficult to read what I just said. I have one Zyprexa left from a long time ago. Also, since I am consistently saturating on charisms during meditation, I may, if you want, consider taking it and seeing if I can get the same saturation in charisms while under it's effect. That is the kindest thing I can think to do.
The jury is not out. My meditations are slowly improving but no break through yet. I've been on Olanzepine (Zyprexa) for three years. Who knows what is happening with my serotonin and dopamine receptors, they could be bent and twisted out of shape, it's anybody's guess. And what are the long term effects? . The pharmaceutical companies do not even know how Zyprexa works.
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"Olanzapine works by blocking the receptors in the brain that dopamine acts on. This prevents the excessive activity of dopamine and helps to control schizophrenia.
Schizophrenic patients may experience 'positive symptoms' (such as hallucinations, disturbances of thought, hostility) and/or 'negative symptoms' (such as lack of emotion and social isolation). Olanzapine is effective in relieving both positive and negative symptoms of schizophrenia, whereas the conventional antipsychotics are usually less effective against the negative symptoms."
When I was in my psychedelic days, I kept some anti-psychotics around for anyone who wanted to stop the effects of the psychedelic. This was because the effects of psychedelics and what Zyprexa was intended to treat, schizophrenia, are almost identical. I once had to use it myself, and it was extremely effective. these qualities,to those uninitiated in samadhi, sound exactly like samadhi charisms. To me, this is no mere coincidence. It seems probably you are reaching deeper stages than 2nd and 3rd jhana, but the Zyprexa is blocking most of the charisms.
I may just conduct the experiment anyway, if at least for the future generation of committed meditators.
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Lastly, it pains me greatly to hear that you haven't yet proved Zyprexa not responsible for your concerns about charisms. I was very much hoping when I came back to te forum that you would have proved Zyprexa not responsible for charism-blocking, even though my experience and study suggested otherwise. I still go on hoping that either it isn't responsible, or the possibility of safely resolving it. My apologies if it is difficult to read what I just said. I have one Zyprexa left from a long time ago. Also, since I am consistently saturating on charisms during meditation, I may, if you want, consider taking it and seeing if I can get the same saturation in charisms while under it's effect. That is the kindest thing I can think to do--if you share my same concerns about Zyprexa and charisms. I don't know if you recall why I have that suspicion about it, but I discussed it with you in earlier discussions.
I do share your concerns about Zyprexa and the charisms. Taking one Zyprexa is not the same as taking Zyprexa for 3 years straight. Try it and see what happens. If the results are dramatic, we may have something. There could be a placebo effect. If nothing happens, well who knows? I think maybe a week may be long enough, but it's just a guess.
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Perhaps, but consider this. I took ayahuasca on the day I was forced to use geodon, a so-called "less effective" anti-psychotic than Zyprexa. The effects of the ayahuasca were so powerful that my consciousness was repeatedly leaving my body as I stumbled to the bathroom for the geodon. It took all I could muster along with the help of a friend to empty out the capsule under my tongue. Within 20 mins, it was all over. But it didn't end on it's own. Ayahuasca is one of the most potent hallucinogens known to man. I still had at least 3 hours left of those effects. To me, that speaks well to the immediacy of it's inhibitory effect.
If I find a good opportunity to test Zyprexa, I will. Because samadhi and Zyprexa is almost completely unexplored, and someone has to ensure mankind doesn't get in the way of enlightenment more than it already does. So, we'll see.
I am very happy to hear you're getting better results with meditation. If you can provide a brief summary of the most recent developments, I am very happy to read it. And no, I will not bring up the Zyprexa issue again.
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I am sorry, Michel, for the troubles that you have had with psychiatry. Sadly, psychiatry does not understand the experience of the mystic, so they are inclined to misdiagnose a mystic as delusional; and I believe that you were misdiagnosed.
I've been studying and experimenting with medicine ever since my Mother had me put on Ritalin at 7 years old.
Putting a child on Ritalin is very disturbing to me, and shows how deeply delusional world is.
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... Actually, the Pali term 'Viriya' is a Sanskrit term and it is related to our term 'virtue' which is not a wholesome behavior, nor an 'effort.' Virtue, Viriya, is a spiritual attainment or quality that one can accumulate through leading a rigorous, self-aware contemplative life. So, Supramundane Viriya is Energy, or kundalini are related terms. When one experiences a powerful surge of energy while in deep meditation, this is Virtue, Viriya, arising, which is Supramundane Viriya. It is self-arising. Whereas, effort of any kind is mundane effort.
When I've been in manic states I recall not only having feelings of intense love, euphoria and bliss, but also of having this incredible energy within me. I guess I was experiencing Viriya, the 3rd factor of the 7 factors of enlightenment. Sometimes I long to be manic. The typical long and deep depression which follows mania, I believe, is actually a mourning for its loss.
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When I've been in manic states I recall not only having feelings of intense love, euphoria and bliss, but also of having this incredible energy within me. I guess I was experiencing Viriya, the 3rd factor of the 7 factors of enlightenment. Sometimes I long to be manic. The typical long and deep depression which follows mania, I believe, is actually a mourning for its loss.
(http://i.imgur.com/AUrCrqQ.jpg)
Here is what I've been able to scrap together about esoteric anatomy:
First, there are two higher centers in the human being, the spiritual heart and the spiritual crown.
Second, there is a hidden energy in the human being that 99.9% of us never encounter. In Buddhism, the term "viriya" refers to this energy, but we also find analogous terms in Christianity and Hinduism.
When we live the spiritual life, we learn about ourselves, simplify ourselves, withdraw from the world, and conquer our dysfunctions. What happens when we do these things is this energy emerges, and starts to rise up the spinal column. When that energy reaches the chest, the spiritual heart becomes activated and we undergo a profound transformation.
Later, if that energy reaches the crown of the head, it represents that someone has become a siddha or a perfected one.
Finally, from what I understand about the OOBE, in an OOBE that energy explodes out of the crown of the head while one is in the spiritual realm.
So, this energy rises in us in a linear way. If we have a sensation of it in the head, it means we have already unlocked the spiritual heart and so on. You would not have an experience of it without having been through the long journey of activating it and helping it emerge.
Some other points:
- A full body sensation is not viriya, but the sensation of the aura or spirit.
- Heat in the chest represents the activation of the spiritual heart.
- The stage of uncontrolled sobbing is connected with the activation of the spiritual heart.
- There are other centers than the heart and crown, in Yoga they list 7. However, we can simplify this into the most important two, the heart and the crown.
- The source of this energy appears to be the base or sexual center, so changing our relationship with sexuality is critical to getting on the spiritual path proper.
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When I've been in manic states I recall not only having feelings of intense love, euphoria and bliss, but also of having this incredible energy within me. I guess I was experiencing Viriya, the 3rd factor of the 7 factors of enlightenment. Sometimes I long to be manic. The typical long and deep depression which follows mania, I believe, is actually a mourning for its loss.
Because there are significant parallels between the superior spiritual attainments (maha-phala), then I am willing to consider that some people manifest these superior spiritual attainments (maha-phala) prior to taking up a contemplative life. These people we have many names for, such as: Bi-Polar, PTSD, ADHD, psychosis, etc. Without leading a contemplative life the person who stumbles upon the charisms will be driven quite mad, and everywhere they look for guidance, they will only find misdirection. Now that you, Michel, have taken up a contemplative life, then you might be better prepared for the return of the charisms.
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So, this energy rises in us in a linear way. If we have a sensation of it in the head, it means we have already unlocked the spiritual heart and so on. You would not have an experience of it without having been through the long journey of activating it and helping it emerge.
I wonder how one could explain mania in terms of what is happening with the chakras? Mania arises spontaneously without any volition; there is no "long journey of activating it" involved.
Why did you not mention the throat and 3rd eye chakras. Do they not have any significance?
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Now that you, Michel, have taken up a contemplative life, then you might be better prepared for the return of the charisms.
The contemplative celibate life I live has reduced my level of stress and anxiety significantly. The only time I feel stressed and anxious is when I see the psychiatrist. I have not had any depression for the last two years since I began practicing the N8P. The N8P is a prescription for mental health and well being.
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I wonder how one could explain mania in terms of what is happening with the chakras? Mania arises spontaneously without any volition; there is no "long journey of activating it" involved.
Why did you not mention the throat and 3rd eye chakras. Do they not have any significance?
I assume they are real as well, although I have never had a sensation at the throat. We can call the third eye analogous to the crown, it is usually associated with Shiva, while the crown is more a part of Christian symbolism.
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... Actually, the Pali term 'Viriya' is a Sanskrit term and it is related to our term 'virtue' which is not a wholesome behavior, nor an 'effort.' Virtue, Viriya, is a spiritual attainment or quality that one can accumulate through leading a rigorous, self-aware contemplative life. So, Supramundane Viriya is Energy, or kundalini are related terms. When one experiences a powerful surge of energy while in deep meditation, this is Virtue, Viriya, arising, which is Supramundane Viriya. It is self-arising. Whereas, effort of any kind is mundane effort.
When I've been in manic states I recall not only having feelings of intense love, euphoria and bliss, but also of having this incredible energy within me. I guess I was experiencing Viriya, the 3rd factor of the 7 factors of enlightenment. Sometimes I long to be manic. The typical long and deep depression which follows mania, I believe, is actually a mourning for its loss.
Very interesting, Michel. I hate to admit it, but it seems I also have manic phases. I had one about 3 weeks ago, which lasted 2 weeks, and I was incredibly productive and put a strong foundation underneath me which should last for the next 8 months to years. I don't generally get too depressed afterward anymore. But goodness! HOW I DO LOVE those phases. So alive!
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When I've been in manic states I recall not only having feelings of intense love, euphoria and bliss, but also of having this incredible energy within me. I guess I was experiencing Viriya, the 3rd factor of the 7 factors of enlightenment. Sometimes I long to be manic. The typical long and deep depression which follows mania, I believe, is actually a mourning for its loss.
(http://i.imgur.com/AUrCrqQ.jpg)
Here is what I've been able to scrap together about esoteric anatomy:
First, there are two higher centers in the human being, the spiritual heart and the spiritual crown.
Second, there is a hidden energy in the human being that 99.9% of us never encounter. In Buddhism, the term "viriya" refers to this energy, but we also find analogous terms in Christianity and Hinduism.
When we live the spiritual life, we learn about ourselves, simplify ourselves, withdraw from the world, and conquer our dysfunctions. What happens when we do these things is this energy emerges, and starts to rise up the spinal column. When that energy reaches the chest, the spiritual heart becomes activated and we undergo a profound transformation.
Later, if that energy reaches the crown of the head, it represents that someone has become a siddha or a perfected one.
Finally, from what I understand about the OOBE, in an OOBE that energy explodes out of the crown of the head while one is in the spiritual realm.
So, this energy rises in us in a linear way. If we have a sensation of it in the head, it means we have already unlocked the spiritual heart and so on. You would not have an experience of it without having been through the long journey of activating it and helping it emerge.
Some other points:
- A full body sensation is not viriya, but the sensation of the aura or spirit.
- Heat in the chest represents the activation of the spiritual heart.
- The stage of uncontrolled sobbing is connected with the activation of the spiritual heart.
- There are other centers than the heart and crown, in Yoga they list 7. However, we can simplify this into the most important two, the heart and the crown.
- The source of this energy appears to be the base or sexual center, so changing our relationship with sexuality is critical to getting on the spiritual path proper.
This aligns with my study and experience as well. Michel, you as well, yes?
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When I've been in manic states I recall not only having feelings of intense love, euphoria and bliss, but also of having this incredible energy within me. I guess I was experiencing Viriya, the 3rd factor of the 7 factors of enlightenment. Sometimes I long to be manic. The typical long and deep depression which follows mania, I believe, is actually a mourning for its loss.
Because there are significant parallels between the superior spiritual attainments (maha-phala), then I am willing to consider that some people manifest these superior spiritual attainments (maha-phala) prior to taking up a contemplative life. These people we have many names for, such as: Bi-Polar, PTSD, ADHD, psychosis, etc. Without leading a contemplative life the person who stumbles upon the charisms will be driven quite mad, and everywhere they look for guidance, they will only find misdirection. Now that you, Michel, have taken up a contemplative life, then you might be better prepared for the return of the charisms.
Jhananda, this also coincides with my experience. I have mentioned my sibling once before, who has extensive access to the attainments, but was indeed driven quite mad.
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Very interesting, Michel. I hate to admit it, but it seems I also have manic phases. I had one about 3 weeks ago, which lasted 2 weeks, and I was incredibly productive and put a strong foundation underneath me which should last for the next 8 months to years. I don't generally get too depressed afterward anymore. But goodness! HOW I DO LOVE those phases. So alive!
Sounds like you were experiencing hypomania. You do get a lot done when your in that state. I know what you mean when you say your 'so alive.' What I like about manic states is the element of extreme creativeness. Take any endeavour that you're interested in, and you can easily arrive at some really creative solution. I learned stuff on the guitar in a couple days that I would not have been able to figure out had I not been manic. I played with such intensity that I was afraid of breaking the guitar. My fingers were almost bleeding.
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Same here, Michel. I don't consider it "manic" as much as I do "inspired", which means "in spirit."
I, too, have composed beautiful songs, which the process itself was blissful. Yet I couldn't when I wasn't manic/inspired, however hard I tried. It even felt like the creation of te music was being lead but someone/thing else. It was profound.
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Fascinating. I am watching your progress. If Michel or someone were to sleep in a faraday cage, and his unwanted mental conditions significantly improved, I would most likely find a way to make this work.
In my case my chronic depressions completely subsided after I began meditating and studying the Pali Canon. For 2 years straight I - have not - been depressed. Acute chronic depression is not an illness in my view, rather it is - a very healthy response - to your environment: it's telling you that there's something very wrong, it's just an unresolved psychological issue that you have to come to terms with: the world is full of insane people who think they are normal. The depression will last as long as it isn't resolved. When people have hope, direction and purpose they're empowered to some extent, though not completely, to take on the sufferings that come their way. Now, I strongly believe that we should not medicate people with antidepressants, their problems simply go unresolved. Antidepressants often cause people to become manic. Then the psychiatrists say that you're "bipolar," that it was latent in you, and that it took the antidepressant to trigger it, and then you find yourself stuck in their vicious little game. Often they will turn your family against you, telling them that you are severely mentally ill, that you aren't "normal."
As for the mania that I've experienced, I think that even though I could be really out of it at times, I think that the insights that I gained in these states were very sane as I've written elsewhere. You can't tell me that being full blown manic is a totally psychotic and insane state. The revelations that come to you are spiritually sublime, and ineffable to others who have not experienced them. You are transformed by these experiences. Now I don't understand the manic component of bipolar fully, but I cannot agree that my bipolar is an "unwanted mental condition" as you put it. Depression and mania are in the end very healthy responses to an insane environment, even though sometimes painful and disruptive. So is being bipolar really an illness?
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No, we have mis-communicated. I just got re-diagnosed as bi-polar, severe ADHD, anxiety and depression.
But when I'm not pressured by society, I feel awesome. I don't have a problem with me. This world is just insane. And we are sensitive (which to me feels like a very good thing.)
I agree with your entire post. I didn't know how you regarded your mind, and was trying to be considerate. Most people get pissed if you say "we're just sensitive to the worlds insanity." They want to believe there is something wrong with them. I haven't been able to determine where you stand, so I erred on the side of probability.
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I have a theory on bipolar:
The depressive phase of bipolar is the unresolved psychological issue one has that is causing their suffering, i.e. the First Noble Truth.
The manic phase, which usually follows a depression, is an attempt to resolve the issue, it may be even an attempt to find the Noble Eightfold Path - the ultimate resolution - which Michael Hawkins, if I recall having read correctly, thinks is encoded in all of us, it's in our DNA. The insights come to you when you're in a state of manic psychosis. Now it's not always successful, especially when the psychiatrists intervene with medications. This is an interruption of the process by preventing the insight stage to fully mature, and when this happens you slide right back into the depression.
So I see manic psychosis as a self-healing process. It should not be aborted by the psychiatrists.
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I agree with much of what you say, Michel, about clinical depression, and bipolarity, psychosis, etc. However, developing critical thinking seems like a critical issue that you have clearly developed.
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I never considered that side to it, Michel. About it being a natural process. Still, it is a process. Which, for me, in regards to drugs or medicines, has been a slow progression from powerful drugs, down to less powerful drugs, and eventually their elimination. It's the same way that most humans can't force a complete change of their diet. It has to happen as a process.
With that said, I wish to update my list of common drugs, foods, and activites, and how they interact with the ecstatic mystic life.
In order of the severity of interference with naturally arising charisms, nimitta, or other pleasurable signs of meditative absorption, from least to most.
Generally Grounding
1) Benzodiazepines like Xanax, Valium, Klonipen, and Ativan
2) Alcohol and most likely any alcohol-like substances such as Kava Kava, Phenibut, GBL, DXM, and GBH
3) Anti-Psychotics like Geodon and Zyprexa
What we see here are what can be referred to as "grounding" substances. They drive one into worldliness, which includes identification with the ego (conditioned self) and physicality. I've found these to be useful ONLY WHEN NECESSARY for the mystic if one has relationship duties to fulfill, such as sexuality, or if one is having difficulty with poor appetite or becoming overwhelmed by non-physical phenomena like the mind or signs of absorption.
I think this is what the Buddha was getting at when he meant that one should abstain from intoxication. "Intoxication", which we can take to mean "intoxication with worldly life" in this case, can happen with anything worldly, but the above drugs induce worldly intoxication very easily and effectively. Thus, they have been used for "schizophrenia", "cabin fever", aborting or attenuation of psychedelic trips, and other pronounced mental states.
The following are drugs which I've found to increase the appearance of charisms, jhana-nimitta, or signs of absorption. They are in order of least to most.
Generally Elevating
1) Marijuana or marijuana-like compounds such as synthetic cannibinoids
2) Psychedelics like mushrooms, LSD, peyote, DMT, and seemingly every substance widely recognized as psychedelic (marijuana being recognized as mildly psychedelic). Which is interesting, because there are far more psychedelic substances on the planet than any other psychoactive drug group.
We can identify these substances as "elevating." It should be noted that one can still become intoxicated with these substances, and so it is not wise to think one is doing themself a spiritual favor by using marijuana and taking psychedelics often. Although for westerners, it is often that mystics start their road to meditative absorption through psychedelic compounds.
The last group are more balanced. They're not always elevating, but not always grounding. People who take drugs like this often and prefer them to treat their symptoms are almost guaranteed to be a mystic or contemplative, whether they are "in the closet" or not.
Generally Balanced
1) Opiates and Opioids such as Opium, Morphine, Hydrocodone, Oxycodone, Oxycontin
2) Stimulants and Amphetemines like coffee, coca, cocaine, adderall, and ritalin
These are tricky. They can be very useful in the first dark night, or if needing enough relief to find more consistent access to meditative absorption. If one takes too much, they will find themselves intoxicated. They may experience things similar to meditative absorption phenomena while intoxicated, but that only serves the purpose of giving the user a general idea of what is possible in meditative absorption.
Why am I listing these? Everyone is at their own unique place in developing "spiritually." It is my hope that it will help those just starting on the path to get an idea how they can progress toward a more sober yet fulfilling contemplative life.
Here is a list of less-impacting yet still important "grounding" and "elevating" activities and foods:
Grounding
Animal products like meat, milk, eggs, fish
Most processed food
Physical activity like lifting heavy objects (weight lifting)
Elevating
Fruit like apples, oranges, bananas, and berries
Sugar
Physical activity like running or anything else done rapidly and repeatedly (like how a bird flaps its wings)
Balanced
Vegetables and grains like rice, quinoa, broccoli, and kale
Physical activity that is slow and deliberate, like walking, tai chi, and traditional yoga
You can really see a lot further into this, but I have schoolwork to do. I posted it here in the ADHD thread because this is where Jhananda put an earlier post similar to this.
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This is pretty good. I understand the depressants/downers/grounders in your list from having had lots of experience with them, that is the major and the minor tranquilizers. I'm an authority on booze. I've got a pickled liver to prove it.
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Interesting video titled: Why YOU Think you are JESUS: The Spiritual 'Delusions' of Bipolar Disorder. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IGNCMcJVKYs) It's 10 minutes long. I agree with much of it since on some of my totally psychotic manic experiences I also felt like the savior of humanity. I also realized that my egoic-self was a delusion, a fictitious creation of the mind.
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Thank-you, Michel. I enjoyed that video quite well. I guess I am just suffering from a messiah complex. I guess I will take some meds and perhaps unsubscribe from this forum, because I won't need it any more;-)
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Thank-you, Michel. I enjoyed that video quite well.
This guy who made the video seems to think that bipolar psychosis can take you all the way to enlightenment. Well, I don't know about that, and it's an area worth exploring. But a manic psychosis, if it is allowed to develop fully, can certainly lead to some profound insights - such as the Buddhist idea of non-self. Unfortunately, all of my manic episodes were interrupted by intervening psychiatrists. So perhaps I'll never know how far manic psychosis can take you.
I guess I am just suffering from a messiah complex. I guess I will take some meds and perhaps unsubscribe from this forum, because I won't need it any more;-)
Well, stick around, Jhananda, we need you. LOL.
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This guy who made the video seems to think that bipolar psychosis can take you all the way to enlightenment. Well, I don't know about that, and it's an area worth exploring. But a manic psychosis, if it is allowed to develop fully, can certainly lead to some profound insights - such as the Buddhist idea of non-self. Unfortunately, all of my manic episodes were interrupted by intervening psychiatrists. So perhaps I'll never know how far manic psychosis can take you.
I would agree in part, as long as we consider the manic psychosis and its following depression are part and parcel of the spiritual crisis. We would also have to accept the disciplined contemplative life, as well as the 8 stages of deep meditation, which I do not see in this man's work.
Well, stick around, Jhananda, we need you. LOL.
I was just responding to the video showing how all of us here are "paranoid" and "delusional." And, the simplistic belief that we just need to let our psychosis run-away.