Fruit of the Contemplative Life
Fruit of the contemplative life: => Research into meditation and the religious experience => : Jhanananda January 04, 2014, 04:13:58 PM
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Critic of the movie and research the Mystical Brain (52:15)
http://topdocumentaryfilms.com/mystical-brain/
This morning a long-term friend and support of the GWV sent me a link to this movie. I spent the 52:15 watching it closely and taking notes. In the movie they subject Carmelite nuns, and Tibetan Buddhist monks, and one NDE subject to EEG and MRI brain scans.
My critic:
I found that in most cases the tests recorded in this movie were conducted in a research laboratory, and not in the set and setting of the subject when engaged in their meditation practice. My research shows that most subjects who report regular access to religious experiences have them in a special set and setting, which they often times manufacture, or it is in a religious institution where they practice. Therefore genuine research into the religious experience must be conducted in the set and setting of the subject when engaged in their meditation.
I found that in most cases the tests that were part of this movie were only 5-minute tests. My research shows that a religious experience tends to take about an hour or two of meditation to occur. Therefore genuine research into the religious experience must be conducted over the period of the subject’s daily meditation session.
The “god helmet” is presented at 20:00. The problem with a belief that a genuine religious experiences can be stimulated with any external stimuli demonstrates a profound lack of understanding what a genuine religious experiences is.
At 25:30 a critical understanding of a scientist, the scientific community granting agencies, and social systems was presented. I found it very insightful, when the subject stated that these individuals and institutions tend to be very conservative and stick with the mainstream point of view.
The fundamental problems that I have with all research into meditation and the religious experience:
1) There is no clear understanding of what a religious experience is. None of the researches have shown that they have done the research into the ancient literature of religions where religious experience is documented.
2) None of these subjects were allowed to record their subjective experience.
3) Without a clear understanding of what a religious experience is, there can be no screening of subjects for religious experiences.
4) Therefore none of these subjects were screened for religious experience.
5) These researches assumed that anyone who has engaged in meditation or other religious activities for several decades must be having religious experiences. However, my research shows that this is simply not true.
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I did not watch the video and may be out of line in commenting, but i'd add that in the scientific research on meditative states i have reviewed all seem to believe absolutely that the brain creates consciousness. Its all part of a reductionist materialistic bias inherent in the scientific orthodoxy. I don't think that the deeper aspects of what we might call the religious or mystical states can be understood within that bias. Though a person with attainment could likely do all sorts of mental trickery with moving energy around the brain, none of it has IMO much of anything to do with the deeper aspects of communion with the divine, there i suspect one wouldn't find much activity at all in the brain.
So I think in addition to your critiques you'd also need to add that science has a bias in in material reductionism that would also need to be overcome.
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Good to receive a response from you roamer. I agree that the dominant paradigm of scientific philosophy, which is strictly materialistic, might prevent genuine research on the subject from taking place.
As a social scientist we need not resort strictly to measuring neurological phenomena. Instead our primary research mechanism is taking case histories, which I have done for 10-14 years. We social scientists can also examine ancient literature, language, and art as acceptable data sources. So, if the community of researchers were willing to accept my "data" then I believe research into meditation states and the religious experience could be furthered. Until then all I see research on the subject has been nothing but a poorly planned shot in the dark.
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The “god helmet” is presented at 20:00. The problem with a belief that a genuine religious experiences can be stimulated with any external stimuli demonstrates a profound lack of understanding what a genuine religious experiences is.
I have not watched the movie, but I saw you mentioning the helmet. I would like to comment that I have one model of the "god helmet". Whether it is capable of simulating or STIMULATING a jhana experience, I can't determine. But in a few of my sessions a while ago, I did experience the same thing as 1st jhana (and even one second jhana experience). The primary salient qualities of notable states I have experienced through substances and the helmet are seemingly identifical with the religious experiences I have during meditation.
It should be noted that people who use the helmet are encouraged to NOT meditate, and simply sit and relax. In my experience, I have found it puts the mind into a meditative state, without the intentional effort of meditation. Although I have not attained as much as Jhananda, I have to say that, as much as I want to say a person can only experience a genuine religious experience through their own mental efforts, I have not come to a conclusion that outside stimuli is unable to help someone to experience a genuine religious experience as well. Why not? I only seek to understand so that I can rightly represent you if I am ever asked your position on it.
When people die the causes fall into place for a religious experience. Other substances, such as psychedelics and opiates, can also create "dying" elements within individuals which trigger what honestly appears to be legitimate religious experiences. In my experience, outside stimuli like the "god helmet" and substances bring their own "flavor" to the experience because they are the primary catalyst for the experience happening--in the same way that the immaterial attainments during meditation are experienced a little bit differently than an OOB during sleep . I consider certain substances and the "god helmet" to be another form of "set and setting".
Jhananda, what has you say that these are not legitimate religious experiences?
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Jhananda, what has you say that these are not legitimate religious experiences?
When I was young I took many drugs. I preferred the psychedelics, because I could have a profound experience with them. So, with direct experience with psychedelics I know that they can produce an experience that is like a religious experience; however, haw many people have been transformed by a psychedelic experience? How many people have overcome their addictions through taking psychedelics? None.
However, those who take up a contemplative life that consistently produces a religious experience is transformed. It was the transformation, and the religious experience on demand, that I was looking for in psychedelics, and I never got it.
Why should we believe the "god helmet" is any different than psychedelic? Was the developer of the "god helmet" a mystic? Did he study mystics? No. He is just interested in marketing a product to enriching himself, that is all.
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However, those who take up a contemplative life that consistently produces a religious experience is transformed. It was the transformation, and the religious experience on demand, that I was looking for in psychedelics, and I never got it.
Is there a specific experience that we should be looking for to be counted as the religious experience (such as the jolt up the spine, or ball of light), or do the energy and bliss of the material jhanas count as one?
Jhanananda and Jhanon, if you don't mind explaining, what is the same and different between the two kinds of experiences?
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Is there a specific experience that we should be looking for to be counted as the religious experience (such as the jolt up the spine, or ball of light), or do the energy and bliss of the material jhanas count as one?
While the jolt up the spine and luminous sphere are all good religious experiences it is all 8 stages that need to be recognized by the mystic as valid, worth pursuing, and transforming one's lifestyle to cultivate and maintain.
The salient point on the topic of research into meditation, is none of these researchers have bothered to find out what the 8 stages of the religious experience are, which is what it is to be a mystic. They just assume that monks and nuns in religious institutions have these experiences; however, that assumption is wrong on many points, but one key point.
1) How many religions recognize the 8 stages of the religious experience?
Answer: there are a few religious movements that have in their literature a description of 4-8 stages of the religious experiences; however, when we examine how they understand those stages of the religious experience we find that in most cases they have either mystified them to the point that no mortal could ever be believed to have had one, or they have turned them into nothing more than mental gymnastics.
Jhanananda and Jhanon, if you don't mind explaining, what is the same and different between the two kinds of experiences?
The 8 stages of the religious experience have been described by me in many ways. Please check this URL for those ways.
http://www.greatwesternvehicle.org/phala.htm
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1) How many religions recognize the 8 stages of the religious experience?
Answer: there are a few religious movements that have in their literature a description of 4-8 stages of the religious experiences; however, when we examine how they understand those stages of the religious experience we find that in most cases they have either mystified them to the point that no mortal could ever be believed to have had one, or they have turned them into nothing more than mental gymnastics.
Both the mystification and reduction to mental gymnastics have been the most common types of explanations I found before coming here. It is nice not feeling as though the major mystics may have mentally constructed their enlightenment, or that those same mystics were superheros leaving us with no possibility of reaching the fruit of their teachings.
Jhanananda and Jhanon, if you don't mind explaining, what is the same and different between the two kinds of experiences?
The 8 stages of the religious experience have been described by me in many ways. Please check this URL for those ways.
http://www.greatwesternvehicle.org/phala.htm
I thank you for the link to the papers you have written, they are extremely informative on the phenomena of absorption. I apologize for not asking it clearly, but my question was relating to the psychedelic experience and the religious experience, what do you guys feel are the similarities and differences?
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I thank you for the link to the papers you have written, they are extremely informative on the phenomena of absorption. I apologize for not asking it clearly, but my question was relating to the psychedelic experience and the religious experience, what do you guys feel are the similarities and differences?
Essentially I see no difference between the religious experience, the meditation, and the psychedelic experience, other than the highly emotional religious experience and the psychedelic experience ultimately led no where; whereas the contemplative experience leads to deeper states, which lead to liberation. And, the door way to deeper states and liberation, is through stilling of the mind. How many people who have a highly emotional religious experience learn to still their mind? None. How many people who have a drug experience learn to still their mind? None.
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There is strong evidence that ibogaine and ayahuasca are be effective in assisting the elimination of addictions. Ibogaine is often used successfully for opiate addiction. Erowid contains many records of this. But since mainstream science stays away from studying psychedelics (except for the guys who came up with the "god helmet"), you'll only have personal claims and experience reports to go on.
The developers of the "god helmet" do study mystics, but they themselves do not appear to be mystics. I have had many conversations with scientists who is developing Shakti and Shiva.
I have found in my observation and study that psychedelics create hallucinatory phenomena that can captivate a user into a meditative state, just like the charisma do. For example, someone might be watching a swirling mass in the visual field which leads to a still mind. Or the "body high" is also a popular psychedelic hallucinatory meditation object.
Quick side note that a +4 on the Shulgin scale is described as leaving the body, and/or "going into the light." DMT is perhaps the most powerful catalyst of all psychs to this end.
I am not certain psych's are incapable of assisting genuine religious experiences. It has this far seemed that it is the opposite.
Rouge leader, so far the only difference I've found is the "flavor" like I mentioned earlier. Psych's create all kinda of hallucinations, but sometimes mind stilling and other salient jhana characteristics do appear to happen through the utilization of these hallucinations as meditation objects. I do not consider the hallucinations themselves to be religious experience. But the hallucinations are often pleasant, and so one can much more easily rest their mind on it just like a charism. The hallucinations are what lend the "flavor".
Forgive for lack of quotes and additional detail. On mobile device without optimal keyboard.
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There is strong evidence that ibogaine and ayahuasca are be effective in assisting the elimination of addictions. Ibogaine is often used successfully for opiate addiction. Erowid contains many records of this. But since mainstream science stays away from studying psychedelics (except for the guys who came up with the "god helmet"), you'll only have personal claims and experience reports to go on.
I hate to pop anyone's bubble, but does it make sense that taking a drug is going to help eliminate drug addiction, therefore leading a contemplative life, is a waste of time?
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I've never taken ayahuasca, but I've heard about its use in addiction therapy. One person described the experience as if " being shot through the barrel of a gun, lined with baroque paintings, and landing in a sea of electricity..." Sounds like fun, and apparently that's only the beginning. After many pleasant and unpleasant experiences, it finally brings the individual into the depths of their psyche where they are forced to confront their demons.
The work of addiction expert, Dr. Gabor Mate, on the use ayahuasca to overcome addiction is interesting. He argues that it should be taken under the supervision of a supportive group using similar rituals of traditional Amazonian healers. It maybe one of the very few choices available for those who do not follow a contemplative life to overcome their addiction. But it is a very difficult process, as Dr. Mate explains.
I overcame my addiction to alcohol, to a large degree, by leading a contemplative life. This I believe is by far the best way to overcome addictive behaviour.
Mate's work is well represented on YouTube. This is a short 6 minute video which introduces the subject: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ScP2tIJJ2BA
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Peyote has been used long before anyone knew about ayahuasca, for overcoming addiction. My premise holds, "why should we think that taking a drug will help us overcome drug addiction? Whereas, leading a rigorous, self-aware contemplative life, that bares the superior fruit of attainment (mahaphala) does. I am proof, and many of my case histories support this premise.
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I have taken ayahuasca, peyote, mushrooms, and salvia in the investigation of the altered states they promote. I could elaborate on the various experiences therin, but at this point the only thing worth mentioning seems to be that whatever revelations or energetic breakthroughs i had at the time did not stick around and did not help my spiritual transformation process. In fact i think that it took my brain and subtle energtic system some time to recover to a more natural balance after the trip. They might have their places for somebody who isn't meditating and needs a jolt just to recall the spiritual experience, otherwise meditation is the way to go. I hope i'm not ever tempted to waste my time with them again in this life.
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I have taken ayahuasca, peyote, mushrooms, and salvia in the investigation of the altered states they promote. I could elaborate on the various experiences therin, but at this point the only thing worth mentioning seems to be that whatever revelations or energetic breakthroughs i had at the time did not stick around and did not help my spiritual transformation process. In fact i think that it took my brain and subtle energtic system some time to recover to a more natural balance after the trip. They might have their places for somebody who isn't meditating and needs a jolt just to recall the spiritual experience, otherwise meditation is the way to go. I hope i'm not ever tempted to waste my time with them again in this life.
I agree.
There is strong evidence that ibogaine and ayahuasca are be effective in assisting the elimination of addictions. Ibogaine is often used successfully for opiate addiction. Erowid contains many records of this. But since mainstream science stays away from studying psychedelics (except for the guys who came up with the "god helmet"), you'll only have personal claims and experience reports to go on.
I hate to pop anyone's bubble, but does it make sense that taking a drug is going to help eliminate drug addiction, therefore leading a contemplative life, is a waste of time?
This is a good point. I'm only sharing that I'm aware a few ibogaine trips have helped many to eliminate opiate addiction. Because of how difficult the ibogaine experience can be, they don't come back to use ibogaine again once they've accomplished the goal.
I've never taken ayahuasca, but I've heard about its use in addiction therapy. One person described the experience as if " being shot through the barrel of a gun, lined with baroque paintings, and landing in a sea of electricity..." Sounds like fun, and apparently that's only the beginning. After many pleasant and unpleasant experiences, it finally brings the individual into the depths of their psyche where they are forced to confront their demons.
The work of addiction expert, Dr. Gabor Mate, on the use ayahuasca to overcome addiction is interesting. He argues that it should be taken under the supervision of a supportive group using similar rituals of traditional Amazonian healers. It maybe one of the very few choices available for those who do not follow a contemplative life to overcome their addiction. But it is a very difficult process, as Dr. Mate explains.
I overcame my addiction to alcohol, to a large degree, by leading a contemplative life. This I believe is by far the best way to overcome addictive behaviour.
Mate's work is well represented on YouTube. This is a short 6 minute video which introduces the subject: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ScP2tIJJ2BA
Psychedelics were how I overcame my alcoholism. It just lost its appeal in comparison to what psychedelics could offer. Then I lost interest in psychedelics when I began attaining jhana.
Peyote has been used long before anyone knew about ayahuasca, for overcoming addiction. My premise holds, "why should we think that taking a drug will help us overcome drug addiction? Whereas, leading a rigorous, self-aware contemplative life, that bares the superior fruit of attainment (mahaphala) does. I am proof, and many of my case histories support this premise.
A rigorous, self-aware contemplative life is ideal, but as roamer said, some people, like me, can benefit from psychedlic trips. I do not think I would have gained the conviction to really hunker down on meditating and searching for jhana if I hadn't experienced jhana-like things in psychedlia. It helped me see that there were spiritual phenomena that I wasn't really aware of. It was a wake-up call.
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I have taken ayahuasca, peyote, mushrooms, and salvia in the investigation of the altered states they promote. I could elaborate on the various experiences therin, but at this point the only thing worth mentioning seems to be that whatever revelations or energetic breakthroughs i had at the time did not stick around and did not help my spiritual transformation process. In fact i think that it took my brain and subtle energtic system some time to recover to a more natural balance after the trip. They might have their places for somebody who isn't meditating and needs a jolt just to recall the spiritual experience, otherwise meditation is the way to go. I hope i'm not ever tempted to waste my time with them again in this life.
I agree, and this was my experience with dabbling in psychedelics.
This is a good point. I'm only sharing that I'm aware a few ibogaine trips have helped many to eliminate opiate addiction. Because of how difficult the ibogaine experience can be, they don't come back to use ibogaine again once they've accomplished the goal.
Yes, I am aware of the claim that psychedelics have been known to help people overcome addiction. Since many of us here have at one time or another taken a psychedelic, then it could be argued that psychedelics lead to the contemplative life and the religious experience; it could even be argued that psychedelics are required for attainment; however, both claims would be wrong. Thus, unless you have direct experience with overcoming addiction to substances through the use of ibogaine, then you might be repeating a flawed conclusion of some so-called researcher.
Psychedelics were how I overcame my alcoholism. It just lost its appeal in comparison to what psychedelics could offer. Then I lost interest in psychedelics when I began attaining jhana.
A rigorous, self-aware contemplative life is ideal, but as roamer said, some people, like me, can benefit from psychedlic trips. I do not think I would have gained the conviction to really hunker down on meditating and searching for jhana if I hadn't experienced jhana-like things in psychedlia. It helped me see that there were spiritual phenomena that I wasn't really aware of. It was a wake-up call.
In this case it is helpful when you speak from direct experience. Please understand that, while many of us have had psychedelic experience, and it was those experience that brought us to the contemplative life, it is necessary for me to keep this forum from becoming just another discussion forum advocating the use of psychedelics. It is hard enough for me to get across to the world that deep mediation can solve their problems; and the mentality of "drive-thru-therapy" that is at the basis of the psychedelic experience, will not lead to solving those problems.
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I felt that we should avoid this becoming another psychedelic mania. So I agree with most of what you've said. Earlier I agreed with roamer that I don't advocate psychedelic use. I'm almost saddened that psychedelics so often precede the mystic. Because knowing the fruits of the contemplative mystic path as sublime as they are, urges me to share what influenced me to get here so that perhaps others can arrive at the fruits. And knowing how society often closes mind or quickly judges things like psychedelics, it has recently become something I talk about more and more rarely.
Please forgive the poor grammar above.
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Thank you Jhanon, Michel, Jhanananda and Roamer for the contributions to this discussion, it is all very interesting.
A rigorous, self-aware contemplative life is ideal, but as roamer said, some people, like me, can benefit from psychedlic trips. I do not think I would have gained the conviction to really hunker down on meditating and searching for jhana if I hadn't experienced jhana-like things in psychedlia. It helped me see that there were spiritual phenomena that I wasn't really aware of. It was a wake-up call.
Though I have not had much experience with psychedelics (nor do I plan to), I agree here that some of the things I experienced were a wake-up call to drop the drugs and become more dedicated and disciplined in my search. I don't think it was necessary for me to have taken them to experience what I do now, but it gave me a glimpse that there was more available to us than I had previously concluded. Even so, some of my friends continue to argue with me saying that the drugs are what is necessary to experience bliss and see truth, but I still feel that it will only be open to them as long as they are on the drug, then what? So I see why you are against promoting them Jhanananda as many people are already heavily invested in them. I assume my friends think I am making things up about absorption because they do not experience much in meditation. But I try to inform them of your website and tell them its only a matter of time if they try earnestly. Though I am not trying to teach anyone, and I barely feel worthy enough to give even small advice, I hate watching people spin in circles if they are really done with it, so I try to just point them here.
This does make me curious, would I be wrong in trying to help those near me who wish to try finding meditative absorption? I ask because I don't feel qualified to guide them far (only up to some charisms), and I would be unable to help them during a spiritual crisis or dark night, but some seem really desperate to find answers(or at least some relief) and I hate to just leave them to it on their own because I suffered almost incessantly when I felt like that. But I obviously don't want to cause more harm than good. Would it be wiser to just continue quietly until I have better experience? Again my aim is not to be a teacher, just to help.
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This does make me curious, would I be wrong in trying to help those near me who wish to try finding meditative absorption? I ask because I don't feel qualified to guide them far (only up to some charisms), and I would be unable to help them during a spiritual crisis or dark night, but some seem really desperate to find answers(or at least some relief) and I hate to just leave them to it on their own because I suffered almost incessantly when I felt like that. But I obviously don't want to cause more harm than good. Would it be wiser to just continue quietly until I have better experience? Again my aim is not to be a teacher, just to help.
Sadly, the truth is you have more attainment than any meditation teacher, priest, guru, Bhante, Bikhu, Roche or Rinpoche, I have ever met. Now, do not let that go to your head, because all religions are frauds; but you are better qualified than the later to teach meditation, so I think, if you are called to do it, then do it. You can always direct people with problems here, where they will hopefully continue to find a support community (sangha) whether I am here or not.
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It is one of my few worldly joys to teach meditation to anyone who will listen, and sometimes even just hear.