Fruit of the Contemplative Life
Fruit of the contemplative life: => Ecstatic Buddhism => : Alexander August 10, 2014, 10:35:18 PM
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Here are some ideas I use for discerning attainment. I try to be very conservative. If I do not know someone well enough, I will not make a judgment. I do not claim my judgments are indisputable, but I have not met someone with a system comparable to my own.
(I) The Four Noble Ones
Streamwinner
These days this is the hardest one for me. I need to be very well acquainted with the person. Critical to me about streamwinners is:
- They have a belief in "something more" than what can be seen or felt. This can be expressed in different ways. The person may have contradictory beliefs, but that does not compromise streamwinning.
- Streamwinners are able to instill mystic knowledge with the importance it deserves.
- Streamwinners can distinguish between mystic knowledge and ordinary knowledge.
That last point is very important. It's what makes streamwinners special. If they were not seeking liberation, they would not be able to distinguish "mystic" knowledge from regular knowledge.
Once-returner
The two major human fetters - sensuality and ill will - have been weakened. This person can never take human affairs seriously in the way an ordinary person can. They have already discovered something very great, though they may not understand what intellectually. While a streamwinner is a "seeker" in the absolute sense, a once-returner is already a "finder" in the relative sense.
Another thing I look for in once-returners is a major personal transformation. In my experience such an event is universal. But, I try to remember that the person may not invest this event with personal significance. He could see it as something unique to him, and not as a natural part of spiritual growth.
Nonreturner
These people are very rare in the world. But I always see them. They are very interesting people, because they have a great amount of gravity beneath the surface.
A nonreturner has totally effaced the human fetters. This means he will not return to the human realm again. That is very profound.
Arahant
The supreme state of man spiritually. I look for the dark night of the soul, profound emotional and intellectual refinement, and the religious experience.
(II) What are some of the things I look for in general?
Streamwinner:
- belief in mystic knowledge
- belief in a "way out of the world"
- respect given to spiritual teachers but an admittance of what one doesn't know
Important fetters:
- Sensuality
- Ill will
- Restlessness
Also:
- Inconsistency, pride, or lack of equilibrium; usually this shows a person who lacks self-knowledge - tied to the fetter of restlessness
Important events:
- A transformative experience that alters the person's vision of himself and the world
- The dark night of the soul
Attainments:
- Self-arising joy
- The ability to be alone and be happy
- A consistent self behind all the roles we play in a day
- The still mind
- A gravity when in the person's presence; not tangible to the ordinary person
(III) Critical things to read
(1) The Buddha's explanation of the 4 stages of liberation: Excellent chart (http://i.imgur.com/1WJPF8X.png).
(2) Ouspensky's writings on the 4 higher kinds of man: The Psychology of Man's Possible Evolution, 54-55; Fragments of an Unknown Teaching, 71-73.
(3) R. M. Bucke's list of people throughout history: Cosmic Consciousness.
(IV) Important threads
Ramana Maharshi an arahant based on 2 crises and evidence of the religious experience: http://fruitofthecontemplativelife.org/forum/index.php/topic,540.0.html
List of Socrates, Walt Whitman and others and their attainment based on jhana: http://fruitofthecontemplativelife.org/forum/index.php/topic,591.0.html
Vision of the Noble Ones as a spiritual gift: http://fruitofthecontemplativelife.org/forum/index.php/topic,727.0.html
Michel's blog: http://fruitofthecontemplativelife.org/forum/index.php/topic,767.15.html
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"A gravity when in the person's presence; not tangible to the ordinary person"
Very good, Alexander. I agree. I mentioned this in a recent post, but not as well-worded as you. I would wish to see this thread turn into a place for GWV members to estimate their attainment and have discussion as to why it seems their attainment is what it is.
For example, I cannot figure out if I'm a stream-winner, once-returner, or less-likely, a non-returner. I know I'm at least a stream-winner, though.
And, although it hasn't been of much importance, because samadhi is so much more satisfying; I do find myself concerned about my progress. I do not want to die without having at least reached Arahantship. I don't want to come back here, or at least not without consciously doing so. I want to get out, and help others get out. It's the only logical thing to do.
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Nonreturner
These people are very rare in the world. But I always see them. They are very interesting people, because they have a great amount of gravity beneath the surface.
A nonreturner has totally effaced the human fetters. This means he will not return to the human realm again. That is very profound.
Arahant
The supreme state of man spiritually. I look for the dark night of the soul, profound emotional and intellectual refinement, and the religious experience.
You've done a great job in explaining the 4 types of Noble Ones. This is priceless.
However, my list of the 4 Noble Ones below is different in that the non-returner has totally eradicated only the 1st 5 fetters, rather it is the arahant that has overcome all the 10 fetters. I can't remember where I got my list. We'll have to check the suttas.
Fetters overcome:
1st three: Streamwinner - sotapanna (up to 7 rebirths in the human realm)
1st three + 4 & 5 weakened: Once-returner - sakadagami (1 rebirth in the sensuous sphere)
1st five: Non-returner - anagami (1 rebirth in the pure abodes)
All ten: Arahant or Holy One - arahant (liberation in nibanna)
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"A gravity when in the person's presence; not tangible to the ordinary person"
Very good, Alexander. I agree. I mentioned this in a recent post, but not as well-worded as you. I would wish to see this thread turn into a place for GWV members to estimate their attainment and have discussion as to why it seems their attainment is what it is.
For example, I cannot figure out if I'm a stream-winner, once-returner, or less-likely, a non-returner. I know I'm at least a stream-winner, though.
And, although it hasn't been of much importance, because samadhi is so much more satisfying; I do find myself concerned about my progress. I do not want to die without having at least reached Arahantship. I don't want to come back here, or at least not without consciously doing so. I want to get out, and help others get out. It's the only logical thing to do.
Honestly I suspect you are on the path to arahantship. Meaning you are between nonreturner and arahant. You should spend some time reflecting on your life narrative, and figure out if this would make sense.
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I remember you saying that recently. I feel like i must have exaggerated or mis-represented myself at some point, because the mental picture I have of an arahant is saturated in charisms all day. I'm not. I mean, I can hear the audio charism whenever I want, I can feel the tactile charism whenever I want, and I can experience the visual and third eye charism whenever I want. But they aren't profound. Some ringing, tingling in hands and feet, seeing auras, this purple stuff, and brilliant light (if I take the time and effort to do so), and when i close my eyes I do begin to see shapes and silhouettes. While meditating, I VERY often see a small pin of white light, and I think I know what it is, but I can never seem to get my fearful ass into it. I do get energy blasts fairly regularly during daily life, but they are the softer ones. What I'm saying is that my charism activity isn't spectacular.
That's charisms, though, and is probably my weakest point of practice. But, what is the most reliable way to measure attainment level? I find it hard to believe that both you and Jhananda think I am a Non-Returner. I feel like I must be deluded, and have mis-represented myself, but at the same time it doesn't seem like I am deluded.
Oh! The fruits. Uhhhh, well, let's see. Let me grab a list of the fruits.
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What I'm getting at, Alexander, is, will you bluntly tell me what has lead you to think this? I don't doubt you or Jhananda. And I know from recent experience that it is possible to observe others and their awareness remotely while I'm in jhana--so that is a possible point from which you may be making your suggestion. I just want to know what's behind your thought on it, and then apply my own critical thinking.
However, I will do as you suggested. When you say "life narrative", do you mean review my life, or review my state of mind as I progressed through life?
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Yes, that is funny that was Jeffrey's thought as well. We both said you were a nonreturner.
One thing is you could compare yourself to my friend Father Roger. He is getting old now. He is a nonreturner. What is interesting is Father Roger exhibits no charisms. He has told me he has never in his whole life experienced anything fantastic. The most fantastic thing, he said, was the transformation he said accompanied conversion.
Like myself, he did not know about the charisms until I told him about them. Still, he has no sound charism, and he has never felt an inner heat. Although I would say with 100% certainty that he has opened the spiritual heart.
I think if my friend dedicated himself seriously to silencing the mind, within a month he would start exhibiting charisms. So I think that is ironic. He is at that high level of attainment, but with no meditation there are no fruits.
Of course, you are the opposite! You have the fruits which imply you are at a high level. But, you don't recognize the level you're on.
However, I will do as you suggested. When you say "life narrative", do you mean review my life, or review my state of mind as I progressed through life?
Yes, I think this is a good idea. You should do both. Of course, nothing forces you to. But, if you're so close to arahantship, I don't see why you shouldn't recognize you are.
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Well, I asked my partner about if she thought I had any of the fetters. We went through them one by one. I can count on her honesty and observation. Her observation coincides with yours.
I just thought it would be more difficult. But now I am beginning to see that there are two sides to the practice. There is fetters, and then there is samadhi. Do I correctly recall the Buddha saying that there are two ways in which one may arrive at enlightenment? Or was that a commentary?
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I was reflecting this morning on what I said:
I think if my friend dedicated himself seriously to silencing the mind, within a month he would start exhibiting charisms. So I think that is ironic. He is at that high level of attainment, but with no meditation there are no fruits.
So it seems we can see one part of the spiritual life as growth through the different states of being. The other part is growth in meditation or samadhi. At the same time, without the state of being, there will be no results when you meditate. The two are connected, not distinct. So, going through the states of being is essential. But, once you become a nonreturner, meditation becomes hugely significant.
But now I am beginning to see that there are two sides to the practice. There is fetters, and then there is samadhi. Do I correctly recall the Buddha saying that there are two ways in which one may arrive at enlightenment? Or was that a commentary?
Yes I think the two are connected. Although I believe you are referring here to samatha and vipassana meditation. Jhanananda made a clip on them here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wA5WkwdpxuA
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Right, no, I agree.
What I'm saying is that they are both necessary, but an individual can either contemplate themselves into absorption that immediately leads to revelatory insight (which I have done more than once), or they can dive deep enough into samadhi enough times that the insights arise on their own (which I've only done once or twice)
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Based on the Bhodhi/Nanamoli's chart that you've referred to, Alexander, this is what I understand which of the ten fetters the four noble ones have overcome:
1st three: Streamwinner - sotapanna (up to 7 rebirths in the human realm or in a heaven)
1st three + 4th, 5th & 10th weakened: Once returner - sakadagami (1 rebirth as a human)
1st five: Non-returner - anagami (1 rebirth in a pure abode)
All ten: Holy One - arahant (no rebirths)
Bhodhi/Nanamoli's notes for the chart are:
Note 3. See, for instance, the "Snake-Simile Discourse" (MN 22), where the Buddha states:
'... [F]or those who are arahants, free of taints, who have accomplished and completed their task, have laid down the burden, achieved their aim, severed the fetters binding to existence, who are liberated by full knowledge, there is no (future) round of existence that can be ascribed to them.... [T]hose monks who have abandoned the five lower fetters will all be reborn spontaneously (in the Pure Abodes) and there they will pass away finally, no more returning from that world.... [T]hose monks who have abandoned three fetters and have reduced greed, hatred and delusion, are all once-returners, and, returning only once to this world, will then make an end of suffering.... [T]hose monks who have abandoned three fetters, are all stream-enterers, no more liable to downfall, assured, and headed for full Enlightenment.' (Nyanaponika, 2006)
Note 4. The "fruit" (Pali: phala) is the culmination of the "path" (magga). Thus, for example, the "stream-enterer" is the fruit for one on the "stream-entry" path; more specifically, the stream-enterer has abandoned the first three fetters, while one on the path of stream-entry strives to abandon these fetters.
Note 5. Both the stream-enterer and the once-returner abandon the first three fetters. What distinguishes these stages is that the once-returner additionally attenuates lust, hate and delusion, and will necessarily be reborn only once more.
The sutta refers to greed, hatred and delusion which are the same as the fetters of sensual desire, ill-will and ignorance, if I'm correct.
Notice there's a problem in the sutta. It mentions only the first five fetters for the non-returner, but it does not mention the fetter of delusion/ignorance in the case of the once-returner. I would think that either they have been weakened or overcome. What do you think?
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This will be a place where I intend to intellectually hammer down on what level of attainment I might be at. I hope it becomes useful for others. I am using definitions from the internet because I feel like no one has ever given them! It is strange that I see these words over and over, and yet hardly a relative definition to go along with them.
5 Lower Fetters
1) Narcissism - extreme selfishness, with a grandiose view of one's own talents and a craving for admiration, as characterizing a personality type.
Anyone who knows me says I have none, which is a marked contrast to when I was in my early 20's. Now that I'm externally processing it like this, I'm remembering that I am almost certain I didn't have any narcissism when I was young. I can't remember the last time I even took anything "personal", or cared about how I look (beyond the knowledge that I should make an effort to look "good" for my partner and her parents because those things matter to them.) God, that is such a wonderful feeling of freedom.
2) Skeptical doubt - Denying or questioning the tenets of a religion. regarding the doctrines or opinions of philosophical Skeptics.
I don't think I have any of this. I do remember a moment yesterday when I was reflecting on the fetters, and I thought "What if the deathless isn't actually true? Sure, Enlightenment is real, and you can attain arahantship and become conscious at all times; but what if when the physical body dies none of it ends up mattering?" But, there isn't a single thing, thought or anything which suggests the deathless isn't true, other than the fact that I haven't attained the deathless and finished this human life.
3) Clinging to rules, rights and rituals - This is pretty straight-forward. I think a good example is someone saying "You can't do that; it's illegal."
This is similar to my response to narcissim. I have absolutely no clinging to these things. In fact, when I was young (as early as 7 years old) I distinctly remember already being to this point, which got me in trouble often and left me confused and frustrated. Oh wow. i can't believe it. That's true. I never thought of it before. Anyway, regarding "rituals", I do have to unplug everything in my room and hide the few "valuables" I have before I leave my house. I think that's anxiety from sensing energies, though.
4) Desire for sensuality - Sensual means physically pleasing. It often is used in a sexual context, but is not exclusively sexual in meaning.
This is difficult to answer. My first thought is "No. None." Even when I was young, I never thought about sex or was interested in having a girlfriend. It was something "learned", just like the clinging to rites and rituals. My greatest concern in regards to this is that I use psychoactive medications to ease the difficulties and numb the pain of human life (aches, pains, sensing negative energies, being around too many people, no interest in worldly things.)
5) Ill-will or aversion - Animosity or bitterness. A strong dislike or disinclination.
No, I don't have any of this. I do have preferences, like silence, stillness, and solitude. And, I also have a preference against ordinary jobs because I've failed to keep SO many of them. Also, I avoid running out of medication at almost all costs. Also, I experience fear when the light of annihilation comes. The identity always jumps in and ruins it with evasive action.
5 Higher Fetters
1) Craving for Material Existence - Craving to be a human or animal, for example. (?)
I had this when I was younger. I wanted to be a cat. In terms of what I am consciously aware of, I do not have any craving for material existence. I crave "Home."
2) Craving for Immaterial Existence - Craving to be an angel/deva (?)
This is tough to answer, because I've only experienced the lower immaterial plane a few times. It seems pretty great up there, but it's not "Home."
3) Conceit - Excessive pride in oneself. A fanciful expression in writing or speech; an elaborate metaphor.
As of lately, I don't think I have this either. Which is making me think I'm seriously delusional to have made it this far down the fetters without admitting wholeheartedly to being guilty of one of them. I do put a good deal of effort into writing and other communication. But whenever it's something good, I can see it wasn't me, but the Dhamma. Often I write something intending it to say one thing, and then it ends up being even better than I intended. As if it "snuck" in or something. And I know I didn't do that on purpose. Sometimes I'll write a Facebook post to help stimulate contemplation in others, and I don't even know why I'm writing what I'm writing--it's just inspired. It only makes complete sense upon contemplating it.
4) Restlessness - Characterized by or showing inability to remain at rest: a restless mood. Unquiet or uneasy, as a person, the mind, or the heart.
Yes, I think i sometimes get this. One example is that I keep having to rearrange my legs, as I am sitting cross legged on the floor to type this, and the pain tells me to move the legs. I also wonder if without my medications (after withdrawal), if I would be more restless. Yes, I do think I have this, but I think it is mediated a lot by vaping (an electronic cigarette I use) and music.
5) Ignorance - Ignorance is a state of being uninformed (lack of knowledge).[1] The word ignorant is an adjective describing a person in the state of being unaware and is often used as an insult to describe individuals who deliberately ignore or disregard important information or facts.
I can't answer this one. If I was ignorant, I don't think I would know it. Wait, yes, I think I am a little bit ignorant. Sometimes my partner will suggest something, or someone else will, and it doesn't even register because I'm absorbed in some other contemplation or thought.
Hopefully somewhere in there can be identified the fetters I still have. I intend to come back and add all the rest of the marks of levels of enlightenment. Then future seekers or mystics can hopefully find it useful for them.
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This is excellent. You explain each one very well. I also agree about restlessness and ignorance. If you still have fetters, those are them. But, that means you are closer to an arahant than you are a nonreturner.
2) Craving for Immaterial Existence - Craving to be an angel/deva (?)
This is tough to answer, because I've only experienced the lower immaterial plane a few times. It seems pretty great up there, but it's not "Home."
This always makes me think of the story of Nanda, the Buddha's stepbrother: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nanda_%28Buddhist%29
Notice there's a problem in the sutta. It mentions only the first five fetters for the non-returner, but it does not mention the fetter of delusion/ignorance in the case of the once-returner. I would think that either they have been weakened or overcome. What do you think?
Both the once-returner and nonreturner still suffer from ignorance.
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I think one of the problems with this, is that really difficult situations will make our fetters more obvious. And, I haven't had any really difficult situations lately. Well, to me, I haven't. But my mother tells me she can't believe how well I'm handling my current living situation.
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This is excellent. You explain each one very well. I also agree about restlessness and ignorance. If you still have fetters, those are them. But, that means you are closer to an arahant than you are a nonreturner.
2) Craving for Immaterial Existence - Craving to be an angel/deva (?)
This is tough to answer, because I've only experienced the lower immaterial plane a few times. It seems pretty great up there, but it's not "Home."
This always makes me think of the story of Nanda, the Buddha's stepbrother: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nanda_%28Buddhist%29
Notice there's a problem in the sutta. It mentions only the first five fetters for the non-returner, but it does not mention the fetter of delusion/ignorance in the case of the once-returner. I would think that either they have been weakened or overcome. What do you think?
Both the once-returner and nonreturner still suffer from ignorance.
I'm glad it turned out satisfactory. Pardon my language, but I'm fucking shocked. I expected to have all these crazy meditation experiences and stuff before I would get close to being fully enlightened. And, yeah, I've had some crazy meditation experiences. But, I thought it would be like straight-up craziness.
You know, I leave my room and glance at a deva just floating there, and then I walk into the living room and see everyone's aura's and know their thoughts vividly. But it seems the removal of the fetters merely opens up access to the fruits for development. You can can have the fruits, and have removed much of the fetters, but the fruits can still be barely developed. Does this sound accurate?
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This will be a place where I intend to intellectually hammer down on what level of attainment I might be at. I hope it becomes useful for others. I am using definitions from the internet because I feel like no one has ever given them! It is strange that I see these words over and over, and yet hardly a relative definition to go along with them.
You may have missed the ongoing discussion with Jhananda on the ten fetters. It is not finished but it is still very good. I plan to finish it with all of you when Jhananda returns: http://fruitofthecontemplativelife.org/forum/index.php/topic,682.0.html
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Thanks, Michel. I saw it, but forgot about it. This thread I want for people to discuss their level of attainment. The other thread seemed more intellectual theory, whereas the aim of this one is to make it relate-able to everyday life so people can determine their level. I dunno; I just found the other thread really intellectual and difficult to relate ordinary life to. But, I'll review it again. Perhaps it will easier for me to relate to it this time around.
My hope is to incorporate all the major indications of enlightenment AS they manifest in an ordinary person on this thread, and so help people see how they might progress and identify others progression. This is originally Alexander's thread, but I think this was his intention as well.
Am I making any sense? In other words; I am trying to "Eckhart Tolle" it.
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I was reflecting this morning on what I said:
I think if my friend dedicated himself seriously to silencing the mind, within a month he would start exhibiting charisms. So I think that is ironic. He is at that high level of attainment, but with no meditation there are no fruits.
So it seems we can see one part of the spiritual life as growth through the different states of being. The other part is growth in meditation or samadhi. At the same time, without the state of being, there will be no results when you meditate. The two are connected, not distinct. So, going through the states of being is essential. But, once you become a nonreturner, meditation becomes hugely significant.
This is interesting, Alexander. What do you mean by "the different states of being?" Could you please explain this in more detail for us ? Where did you get this idea that without "the state of being there will be no results when you meditate?" Whose teaching is this?
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This is interesting, Alexander. What do you mean by "the different states of being?" Could you please explain this in more detail for us ?
By state of being I mean Noble ones. Packed into this is the idea that each Noble one is like a different animal. What is the difference, for example, between a man and a horse? The man is the higher animal. So, you could say that the nonreturner is like an angel/deva in human form.
Where did you get this idea that without "the state of being there will be no results when you meditate?" Whose teaching is this?
I think it was my idea that without Noble attainment, there are no jhanas. Of course the person does not need to recognize this. The fact exists independently. It is not necessary the person be able to say "oh, I am a once-returner, nonreturner, etc."
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This is interesting, Alexander. What do you mean by "the different states of being?" Could you please explain this in more detail for us ?
By state of being I mean Noble ones. Packed into this is the idea that each Noble one is like a different animal. What is the difference, for example, between a man and a horse? The man is the higher animal. So, you could say that the nonreturner is like an angel/deva in human form.
Where did you get this idea that without "the state of being there will be no results when you meditate?" Whose teaching is this?
I think it was my idea that without Noble attainment, there are no jhanas. Of course the person does not need to recognize this. The fact exists independently. It is not necessary the person be able to say "oh, I am a once-returner, nonreturner, etc."
I agree with Alexander, Michel.
Additionally, if you read Eckhart's book, you'll see that he at least entered the stream or oncereturner merely by observing and contemplating his inner dialog. I had the same experience as Eckhart when I read his book. From that day forward, everything changed (yet again.)
What I've found, is that many of the fetters are no longer observable in me. And yet I can go an entire week without experiencing charisms if I am using the mind constantly. Well, not an entire week. For example; when I was on 24/7 baby duty, it was very difficult for charisms make themselves evident due to the extreme stress.
What, at least, I'M saying, is that one can be a non-returner, and yet not experience any spectacular charisms in meditation or daily absorption. However, the state of being, like a still mind, or equanimity, (and it's resulting abandoning or attenuation of the related fetters) will be there.
As this relates to you, Michel, I would encourage you to go through each fetter as I have, and explain them as you experience life. I first stated my intuition about the fetter, then observations either I or friends have had, and lastly; any doubts I might have about my having overcome that fetter. You may be further than you think.
I think this is why Jhananda is always encouraging you to just cultivate a still mind, because he knows you can ascend the ladder, whether there are many different signs of absorption or not.
This was meant to be encouraging, Michel. And I apologize if it wasn't perceived that way. Although I'm not anywhere near as wise as most of you, I do have a sneaking suspicion that you and I, will reach arahantship, be able to shed the medicinal interference, and suddenly become engulfed in charismatic activity. Which would be quite the pleasure.
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By the way, Michel. I really appreciate how thorough you are. When someone states something, you ask for clear elucidation of source and meaning, and keep at it until something satisfactory is given. I feel you fill an absolutely vital role in the GWV.
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Eleven Fruits
Note: I am unsure if this is in reference to daily life, absorption, or daily absorption. My suspicion is that it is in relation to being absorbed in daily life. In other words, we may not experience full-blown 3rd jhana charisms in daily life, but we do attain the state of mind of 3rd jhana and its fruits.
1) Equanimity - mental calmness, composure, and evenness of temper, especially in a difficult situation
In my experience, yes, I have a great deal of equanimity. Sometimes, the really challenging moments occur (they are rare--maybe every 3 months), but there is this gentleness which surfaces JUST before reactive behavior and soothes me. However, I did lose my cool a little bit at the last job I had, almost a year ago. Later, when they let me go, out of nowhere (no warning), I stood up, shook the manager's hand, and thanked them for their time. And I walked out calmly
2) Fearlessness - lacking fear
Nope. I still have fear.
3) Beyond Pain and Discomfort
No. I still react to pain like "Ow, shit!"
4) Meditative Absorption
Yes.
5) Manomaya lit. "mind-made body" (OOB) - "wields manifold supranormal powers"
I've had several hyper real dreams and visions where I levitate, fly, generate energy orbs in my hands that can be projected, and my favorite; telekinesis. A few days ago, I had a hyper real "dream" (I meditated to sleep that night, and woke up in absorption) where I was visiting some kind of moon or planet that was orbiting very close to another planet. The planet we were on had beautiful, otherworldly features. My companion said it was richer in resources. I turned around and had a stunning up-close view of a massive planet. I asked "What is that?" and he said "That's Earth. A primitive planet." I don't know what to make of this. I think it was just a hyper real dream?
6) Clairaudience "divine ear-element"
Yes. I have had experiences in both ordinary life, and samadhi when I've heard voices as clearly as any other. Also, ringing, water rushing, birds twittering.
7) Mental Telepathy - knows the awareness of other beings
Yes, although it's not as impressive as I expected. Perhaps due to it not being developed enough. Most humans are predictable, and so it is unnecessary in ordinary life. Or, I will experience a thought pop up during stillness of mind, and has no apparent cause--thus I know it is the thought of the person I am interacting with. Also, I've had absorption experiences where I've seen life from the awareness of others. This happens in various ways. Sometimes it is direct.
8 ) Recollection of Manifold Past Lives - lit. “rethinking” or "dependent origination"
I have had hyper-vivid "dreams" where I was in absorption as I fell asleep, and I woke up still in absorption. In these dreams, I have experienced deaths. I do not consider this to be "manifold" like how I've heard Jhananda explain his.
9) Clairvoyance - "Divine eye" or "sees beings passing away & re-appearing." The faculty of perceiving things or events in the future or beyond normal sensory contact.
I have not seen beings passing away and re-appearing. At least not to my memory. However, I have remote viewed friends a couple times, and confirmed it. I also had some visions of the 2014 retreat, and they were not good. After Jhananda came back from his 3-day camping spot scouting/mini-retreat, he cancelled the retreat.
10) Ending of Mental Agitation
I cannot say. It's too vague. I'm inclined to say this occurs at arahantship.
11) Direct Knowledge/Transcendent Insight(?) - lit “knowledge" (nana) and "vision" (dassana)
I detailed the most profound of these experiences in my Meditation and Mystical Records thread. However, I have had subsequent ones that are less profound, yet still direct/transcendent.
This is my initial interpretation of the Fruits as extracted from:
http://www.greatwesternvehicle.org/fruit.htm
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I want to add that I think this exercise is incredibly important and valuable. Actually seeing it put down is encouraging to the practitioner.
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It is a real treat for me to read all this stuff about your attainments as you come closer to full awakening, Jhanon. I believe everything you say. I feel privileged to be witnessing all this. I have overcome the fetter of doubt to a large measure because of this. I am so very happy for you.
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Michel, I thank you for your confidence in my honesty and discernment. And, I am glad you're getting some good out of this. My feeling, at the moment, regarding our work on the path, is that everything should be transparent or out in the open--like a good company or group.
There is a wicked windstorm happening here, so I may lose internet at some point soon.
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... I also had some visions of the 2014 retreat, and they were not good. After Jhananda came back from his 3-day camping spot scouting/mini-retreat, he cancelled the retreat.
Interesting. If you don't mind saying, what exactly were the details of this vision? I'll understand if you prefer not to speak about it.
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I will message this.
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This will be a place where I intend to intellectually hammer down on what level of attainment I might be at. I hope it becomes useful for others. I am using definitions from the internet because I feel like no one has ever given them! It is strange that I see these words over and over, and yet hardly a relative definition to go along with them.
I think we each have a different understanding of the 10 fetters and which of the fetters the 4 noble disciples have overcome. We should all agree what exactly the 10 fetters are. Therefore we should wait until we have finished our discussions on them upon Jhananda return.
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Therefore we should wait until we have finished our discussions on them upon Jhananda return.
I'm unsure what you mean, Michel. Are you saying to not discuss this further??
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Therefore we should wait until we have finished our discussions on them upon Jhananda return.
I'm unsure what you mean, Michel. Are you saying to not discuss this further??
Well do as you please, but I think everyone will be confused since we all have different metrics.
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That we all have different metrics is one of the problems I'm trying to address here. Jhananda already does so much for us all, I feel like it's time WE start building for the future seekers so as to ensure an established foundation. Right now we're just throwing information and data down here, over there, in this hidden journal, or that dusty book.
We look back on history, and see how things quickly deteriorated after the Buddha transitioned. And, also, after my interactions with Cal and his awakening, I am realizing that what Jhananda does, what he has done, what he continues to do, is a great labor and responsibility. Joyous as it is to witness--but just the same it is a great responsibility.
So, soon I will provide a summary of indications of attainments and stages of enlightenment as retrieved from childhood memories recently accessed during 4th jhana. From here, I intend to encourage others to relate, and ultimately use this data to establish a unified knowledge of the path of enlightenment as it manifests in this day and age.
I would feel foolish to not endeavor to remove as much esoteric and historic pitfalls as possible. I see mechanics everywhere in "chakras", jhana, stage of enlightenment. It's all interconnected, and humans need that in this post-industrial age. Especially considering my recent experience with Cal's awakening, which showed me I owe responsibility to those who arrive to awakening through interaction with me.
I'll explain further in the coming days. What we're basically talking about is gathering data. Lots of data--especially in detailed regards to attainment.
This post is not airtight. I use my language poorly, as I am very, very tired. The main message is that we need to acquire as much data of the manifestation of a modern enlightened being.
I have a dream that we will one day unite the vast wealth of knowledge and wisdom Jhananda has amassed, and do so in a way that makes it nearly "Enlightenment for Dummies." There is a common saying something like "if you can't teach it to a child, then you don't know what you're talking about." That's how I intend to pay homage to Jhananda for his decades of sacrifice that we may be here having this discussion right now.
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By the way, Michel. I really appreciate how thorough you are. When someone states something, you ask for clear elucidation of source and meaning, and keep at it until something satisfactory is given. I feel you fill an absolutely vital role in the GWV.
Oh, I somehow missed this post. Thank-you for your words of appreciation, Jhanon.
I'm on a solo retreat, and I'm just sitting back here reading about all you guys describing your fantastic experiences. It's a great learning experience. Hope one day you finish writing your booklet.
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Thank you, Michel. Your words or energy in this post is what kick started the ecstatic meditation post I made for the book and booklet.
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At a certain point, there is no longer need to intellectually discern attainment. Nature/Tao/God/Dhamma/WHATEVER begins to flow. It (Dhamma) will show It's(Dhamma's) awareness where It is. Just as Dhamma said here in Heart Writing "I" wrote.
The identity is the fetters. The fetters are the identity.
Sotapanna/Stream-Entrant, there is joy, because the identity is experiencing the first rays of the Dhamma. One is still identity more than Dhamma.
Once-Returner/Sakadagami, there is stillness because the identity is fading, yet is balanced with the Dhamma. One is a bit more identity, than Dhamma.
Non-returner/Anagami, there is equanimity, because the identity is almost gone. When the identity arises, the Dhamma is immediately aware of it. It gently overcomes the identity and shows it the error, training it like a dog.
I am not an Anagami. I am not enlightened. There is only Dhamma training a dog^
How would one then know they are enlightened? Why would the Dhamma want to look at the dog? One doesn't look at a dog when it is walked. One simply walks.
However, once in a while the dog must be disciplined. This is when one recognizes the Dhamma within.
One will know when Dhamma shows. There is no "I am Enlightened." There is only Dhamma.
For sake of simplicity in most conversation, we use terms like "I" and "me" still. But that is not entirely accurate, is it Alexander? Jhananda? The "I" is not Jhanon the identity. It is Dhamma.
For anyone the above does not make sense to; "I" no longer have any doubt. "I" am Anagami. But more accurately, there is no "I". There is only Tao/Dhamma/Nature. And how can Dhamma doubt Dhamma?
It flows. "We" don't do anything, because there IS no "we". Using that information, the above will make more sense.
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Lately "I" am finding I know many things before they happen. For example, "I" may do something, but what is supposed to happen, doesn't happen. Yet, the Dhamma will know. And so "I" will just stand there. Suddenly what was supposed to happen, happens.
But the direct Knowing becomes so rapid, that one cannot keep up with it. So One simply becomes Dhamma. For example, when "I" teach, "I" seem to know exactly what to say. But during a conversation, there is no time to recognize the Knowings. It is much more efficient and effective to simply let Dhamma flow. As the Dhamma flows, the Dhamma recognizes Dhamma. The identity retreats. The Light of Dhamma is too bright for the identity. It cowers in the final hiding places. But Dhamma will find it, and gently discipline it everytime It does.
The Tao is effortless. Leaving one to enjoy the charisms. There is no need to act. There is no action. There is only the Tao. The awareness rests in the delight of Tao as the Tao flows. And as one rests deeper in the delight of Tao, the Tao flows ever greater. As the Tao flows ever greater, one moves ever deeper into the delight of Tao.
Why should there be suffering? Identity suffers. The Tao does not. When suffering arises, one is reminded to retreat into the Tao.
There is no self. The dog, the identity has tricked Nature's Awareness ("your" awareness) for so long, that even as the dog begins to fall away, Nature's Awareness still believes it is self for some time. That it has will.
There is no self. No will. If there is will, it is identity. It is the dog. Nature flows like the water. The water has no self. It needs no will. It simply flows. The fear that this is undesirable is the dog again. "You" are aware, but "you" are not self. "You" are Nature, the Tao, Dhamma.
There is nothing more peaceful, more easing, more blissful, than relinquishing. Than surrender. This is why humans lay about. They are exhausted by illusion. By chasing the dog in pursuit of a self.
What room is there for the fetters, for the identity, for the dog, if one has relinquished?
This may sound undesirable, but it is not. To witness Nature flowing through "your" awareness is beyond fulfilling.
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I have found a wikipedia entry to be accurate. It is said there are 4 "kinds of "being"", and 8 stages. This explains Alexander's comment "You are closer to Arahant than Anagami." By this is meant one is stage 7.
(1) the path to stream-entry; (2) the fruition of stream-entry;
(3) the path to once-returning; (4) the fruition of once-returning;
(5) the path to non-returning; (6) the fruition of non-returning;
(7) the path to arahantship; ( 8 ) the fruition of arahantship.
The Knowing suggests the path to Arahantship to be the longest path of all (oither than the path to stream entry)
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I stickied this thread because I think it's really valuable. Most Buddhist schools/teachers never discuss attainment, the four stages, or the ways to recognize them. Of course, anyone who claims nonreturning or arahantship is considered insane! But, if people have those attainments, they should be able to know, and state, what they are.
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I stickied this thread because I think it's really valuable.
Glad you like it.
Most Buddhist schools/teachers never discuss attainment, the four stages, or the ways to recognize them. Of course, anyone who claims nonreturning or arahantship is considered insane!
Yes, I too found no school of Buddhism seems to understand the superior fruit of the contemplative life. Dismissing those with genuine attainment as insane is just one of the ways religions marginalize their mystics.
But, if people have those attainments, they should be able to know, and state, what they are.
I agree, this is why I built the GWV website and this forum.
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Hello, what an interesting discussion, and what better way to learn better these four stages and what they mean is to look at myself and hear the constructive criticism of others. This post looks long but it is short if I take out all the headers and their explanations. I am using Jhanon's previous posts as a guideline.
5 Lower Fetters
1) Narcissism - extreme selfishness, with a grandiose view of one's own talents and a craving for admiration, as characterizing a personality type.
No, I don't care. I see value in being strong and caring over one's bodily appearance. Another could tell me that is ego. Frankly, I don't care what they think.
2) Skeptical doubt - Denying or questioning the tenets of a religion. regarding the doctrines or opinions of philosophical Skeptics.
Doubt over God/Dhamma/Divine, No. Never. Doubt of someone's truthfulness, sure. Doubt over someone's supposed good-actions, you got it, but only if they give a sign. Righteousness will show itself as pure, and that I don't doubt.
3) Clinging to rules, rights and rituals - This is pretty straight-forward. I think a good example is someone saying "You can't do that; it's illegal."
No. I see value in honouring what our ancestors teach us only because they are passing on wisdom, never because I feel attached to it. In the end, I will only do me, whatever that is.
4) Desire for sensuality - Sensual means physically pleasing. It often is used in a sexual context, but is not exclusively sexual in meaning.
Sure, in a sense. If my body craves a certain food, possibly because of nutrient deficiency, then I will eat that food. I am not attached to that craving, but I sure will trust it over the words of another speaking of 'clinging'. Sex, I'll enjoy it when it comes, otherwise I am pretty level.
5) Ill-will or aversion - Animosity or bitterness. A strong dislike or disinclination.
Tons, but never to another person. All my anger is self-directed if I am not being true to myself. Someone could do me wrong, and the anger is never directed at them, only self-anger that I act in a righteous way while still standing up for myself.
5 Higher Fetters
1) Craving for Material Existence - Craving to be a human or animal, for example. (?)
I guess so. I am already here, so I surrender to the moment. I enjoy pushing myself physically, like learning back-flips. But that is more about transcending fear than craving for its sake.
2) Craving for Immaterial Existence - Craving to be an angel/deva (?)
Yes, I enjoy dreaming and explore these realms. Dreaming is equally pleasant and unpleasant, I cannot say I am attached in more that I enjoy challenges. I could be attached to challenges... but that feels inherent, and letting go feels like suppressing natural traits of who I am.
3) Conceit - Excessive pride in oneself. A fanciful expression in writing or speech; an elaborate metaphor.
No, I don't feel any excessive pride in my dealings, although I allow myself to feel pride in a job well done, for the sake of doing a good job and giving 100%. That's about the only area I have pride.
4) Restlessness - Characterized by or showing inability to remain at rest: a restless mood. Unquiet or uneasy, as a person, the mind, or the heart.
Yeah, my mind goes non-stop. Fucking fear...
5) Ignorance - Ignorance is a state of being uninformed (lack of knowledge).[1] The word ignorant is an adjective describing a person in the state of being unaware and is often used as an insult to describe individuals who deliberately ignore or disregard important information or facts.
Yes. I have had experiences where I realized my past ignorance, then my behaviour changes. I am certain enlightenment means the ending of of ignorance. When this occurs everything else will fall into place.
Eleven Fruits
Note: I am unsure if this is in reference to daily life, absorption, or daily absorption. My suspicion is that it is in relation to being absorbed in daily life. In other words, we may not experience full-blown 3rd jhana charisms in daily life, but we do attain the state of mind of 3rd jhana and its fruits.
1) Equanimity - mental calmness, composure, and evenness of temper, especially in a difficult situation
Yes and no. Yes, in that I have a very high tolerance of physical sensations, both pleasant and unpleasant. Yes, in many of my dealings with people and my general demeanour. No, in the sense of when I am being taken advantage of I become too scared to act, because I don't want to hurt anyone, but at the same time I don't want to be a door mat.
2) Fearlessness - lacking fear
I trust fear, but I bring myself to many activities I am scared too do ie. courage > fear. My answer is no, I have fear.
3) Beyond Pain and Discomfort
Yes, but I still wouldn't enjoy being tortured.
4) Meditative Absorption
Yes.
5) Manomaya lit. "mind-made body" (OOB) - "wields manifold supranormal powers"
Randomly, yes. I am working on deepening this presently, if anyone has seen my musings on my "Jay's Online Dream Log".
6) Clairaudience "divine ear-element"
Yes. Hums, and voices when sleeping. While I am wide awake, no, aside from my hearing getting stronger with absorption.
7) Mental Telepathy - knows the awareness of other beings
Yes. I don't see it as psychic than more being aware of things most people ignore. It passes through you but you have no judgement over it, like someone's subconscious fears. Words and phrases have sometimes passed through, but I am not looking. If I try then ego gets in the way and it doesn't work, so I just allow the divine to work.
8 ) Recollection of Manifold Past Lives - lit. “rethinking” or "dependent origination"
Yes. Christian monk, buddhist monk, drug addict, antelope, formless being angering other gods. Other random memories or feelings of a time once passed.
9) Clairvoyance - "Divine eye" or "sees beings passing away & re-appearing." The faculty of perceiving things or events in the future or beyond normal sensory contact.
I want to say yes, but I cannot see in the future. Does dreams count? I have said before non-physical vision is stronger than physical vision.
10) Ending of Mental Agitation
Sure, off and on. It depends on my mood and the situation.
11) Direct Knowledge/Transcendent Insight(?) - lit “knowledge" (nana) and "vision" (dassana)
Sure, tons, but it has become so much I just allow it to come when the divine wants to bring it up. Otherwise, it is just me rolling with craving over transcendent insights.
Verdict?
Stream-winner. Once-returner or non-returner? I could see it if I judge it on my daily life sometimes. I know if I meet someone, I will know if they are 'ordinary' or 'noble' and to what degrees. I don't give much credence to knowing it, except that I may trust someone's wisdom and experience the more noble they are.
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This will be a place where I intend to intellectually hammer down on what level of attainment I might be at. I hope it becomes useful for others. I am using definitions from the internet because I feel like no one has ever given them! It is strange that I see these words over and over, and yet hardly a relative definition to go along with them.
I think we each have a different understanding of the 10 fetters and which of the fetters the 4 noble disciples have overcome. We should all agree what exactly the 10 fetters are. Therefore we should wait until we have finished our discussions on them upon Jhananda return.
I agree with you Michel. I think that knowing exactly what needs to be observed, contemplated, and then taken to meditation is very important if one wishes to remove themselves of it.
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Jay, this was a good exercise in self-awareness, which could also be called a personal inventory using the fetters as a check list. Good work.
On your question regarding Clairvoyance - "Divine eye": I believe that this is a reference to remote viewing, which Jhanon explored in the last year in miscellaneous threads.
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One day we'll get around to finishing the thread on the 10 fetters. But I'm not in the mood these days. I just want to practice meditation and mindfulness. I want to stay clear of the Dhamma.
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One day we'll get around to finishing the thread on the 10 fetters. But I'm not in the mood these days. I just want to practice meditation and mindfulness. I want to stay clear of the Dhamma.
I understand. Michel, you've got a unique gift in your writing. I know on many occasions I've had to consider another perspective, to dig a little deeper and ultimately come to a better understanding of any topic youve been involved in. I envy you, to be honest. Your knowledge of the Dhamma is impressive, mine is next to nothing. I'd venture as far as to say I learn much more of the written text from your discussions than anywhere else.
But, focusing on meditation and mindfulness is definitely the right choice. One of these days, during a meditation, youre going to feel that tactile sensation in your hands or feet spread elsewhere. Youre going to direct all of your attention to it, and be thoughtless, and rest there, and it will go further.
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I understand. Michel, you've got a unique gift in your writing. I know on many occasions I've had to consider another perspective, to dig a little deeper and ultimately come to a better understanding of any topic youve been involved in. I envy you, to be honest. Your knowledge of the Dhamma is impressive, mine is next to nothing. I'd venture as far as to say I learn much more of the written text from your discussions than anywhere else.
Me? A good writer? We'll that's the first time I've been accused of that. There are many far better writers here on the forum. I really find writing difficult and I struggle to be concise and precise as possible. I'm never really happy with what I write. If I was younger with more time, I would teach myself how to write. But I'd rather spend time learning to meditate considering how little time I have left.
Be careful on what I write on the Dhamma. I have not mastered it. I have much to learn.
But, focusing on meditation and mindfulness is definitely the right choice. One of these days, during a meditation, youre going to feel that tactile sensation in your hands or feet spread elsewhere. Youre going to direct all of your attention to it, and be thoughtless, and rest there, and it will go further.
Those blissful sensations are spreading weakly and sometimes strongly throughout the body. I feel like a rocket about to break the gravitational pull of the Earth - but I never do. I'm right on the cusp I feel.
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I understand. Michel, you've got a unique gift in your writing. I know on many occasions I've had to consider another perspective, to dig a little deeper and ultimately come to a better understanding of any topic youve been involved in. I envy you, to be honest. Your knowledge of the Dhamma is impressive, mine is next to nothing. I'd venture as far as to say I learn much more of the written text from your discussions than anywhere else.
Me? A good writer? We'll that's the first time I've been accused of that. There are many far better writers here on the forum. I really find writing difficult and I struggle to be concise and precise as possible. I'm never really happy with what I write. If I was younger with more time, I would teach myself how to write. But I'd rather spend time learning to meditate considering how little time I have left.
Be careful on what I write on the Dhamma. I have not mastered it. I have much to learn.
I think the fact that you do try to be concise and precise is what makes your discussions so valuable. I agree with you, there are some excellent writers on this forum. I only mean to point out that you open up the discussion. Anyone following what you write would also need to be precise and concise in their response, meaning theyd have to think a little harder, a little more in-depth. I for one learn alot. I find myself actually reading what youre discussing and trying to relate it to some experience. Whether it was some discussion on the N8P or the 5 aggregates, youve given me the opportunity to dig deeper into them. An opportunity I may have taken on my own accord, without a specific reason to.
Critical thinking, I dont think there is anything on this forum or elsewhere that I would read and just take as truth. I believe I have a guide of some sort. I read something and then pause on it, and sometimes a feeling arises from it. This is something I'd like to nurture some more, but ive come to trust it. So, I enjoy very much reading everything that you write for both of these reasons.
But, focusing on meditation and mindfulness is definitely the right choice. One of these days, during a meditation, youre going to feel that tactile sensation in your hands or feet spread elsewhere. Youre going to direct all of your attention to it, and be thoughtless, and rest there, and it will go further.
Those blissful sensations are spreading weakly and sometimes strongly throughout the body. I feel like a rocket about to break the gravitational pull of the Earth - but I never do. I'm right on the cusp I feel.
Think of what it is to sleep, its like turning off a switch. Your conciousness turns off. Imagine emulating this, but still being aware, and not actually asleep. Theres no anxiety or expectation, no thought or feeling, its bliss as you slip into sleep. Rest in the tactile sensation, emulate what it is to sleep, but be aware, know what youre feeling without feeling it, and rest in it. As thoughts arise, do not entertain them or drift with them, say in your mind that its a thought. Recognize them arising, name them, and then recognize it fading. In time, youre thoughts will slow, and stop.
I remember you talking about a pressure in your forhead, when you feel this, look with your eyes closed, you may see sparkles or static under your eyelids, you can rest in those as well. Just remember, it doesnt matter what they are, they just are.
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Those blissful sensations are spreading weakly and sometimes strongly throughout the body. I feel like a rocket about to break the gravitational pull of the Earth - but I never do. I'm right on the cusp I feel.
Good to hear this, Michel. I was sure they would come soon.
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Moved the exchange between Cal and myself on meditation to: http://fruitofthecontemplativelife.org/forum/index.php/topic,560.msg6672.html#msg6672
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Those blissful sensations are spreading weakly and sometimes strongly throughout the body. I feel like a rocket about to break the gravitational pull of the Earth - but I never do. I'm right on the cusp I feel.
Good to hear this, Michel. I was sure they would come soon.
Thank-you, Jhananda.
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5 Lower Fetters
1) Narcissism - extreme selfishness, with a grandiose view of one's own talents and a craving for admiration, as characterizing a personality type.
It is there. My selfishness to do what I want to do, and my inconsiderate-ness to my family and their needs. I am aware of it, I also see it arise. Im conflicted on this issue because the selfishness is to pursue what I find "valuable", and is most always in direct conflict of what my family finds "valuable". There is a silent craving for admiration, which I also see arise. I do not "feed" it, however. I call attention to it and attempt to remedy the action. Although I have an impulsive nature at times and it is reactive as opposed to proactive. Narcissism exists within me, yet it could not be called a defining quality.
2) Skeptical doubt - Denying or questioning the tenets of a religion. regarding the doctrines or opinions of philosophical Skeptics.
Way beyond the possibility of any kind of doubt. I dont believe there is anything that could happen from this point forward that could ever instill even a sliver of doubt of a higher power. However, I do not think there is ever a moment when reading something religious related that I do not hold a skeptical doubt of the writing. I tend to try to place myself in the shoes of the writer, I want to know what they were feeling when they wrote it, so i take a more critical approach to literature.
3) Clinging to rules, rights and rituals - This is pretty straight-forward. I think a good example is someone saying "You can't do that; it's illegal."
I dont cling to them, however, I do try to upkeep an ethical lifestyle. I think it would be better put that I recognize and understand them and willingly adhere to those that make practical sense. I enjoy my solitude though, and in solitude there are no rules, rights, or rituals to adhere to. My only desire in this regard is to be without conflict, so long as what is required does not directly impact my own pursuits.
4) Desire for sensuality - Sensual means physically pleasing. It often is used in a sexual context, but is not exclusively sexual in meaning.
I attempt to respond to this without an excuse, however, my internal dialouge is filled with "thats only because", that must mean that I do still have a desire for sensuality. I am a pleasure seeker. Mostly i seek it as a distraction. I do not pursue women, or relationship, or companionship. I do seek distraction in the moment. Some habitual, "this is what I do here". This is not limited to sexual. If i go upstairs, I go to the fridge, see whats there, im not actually hungry.
5) Ill-will or aversion - Animosity or bitterness. A strong dislike or disinclination.
Aversion to people, ill-will in brief instances. Mostly, its like the others, the thoughts and feelings arise, yet I am less impulsive in this regard. Most always I recognize the thought or feeling arising and i check it, disagree with it, or question it.
5 Higher Fetters
1) Craving for Material Existence - Craving to be a human or animal, for example. (?)
I do not want material existence.
2) Craving for Immaterial Existence - Craving to be an angel/deva (?)
I do not want immaterial existence.
3) Conceit - Excessive pride in oneself. A fanciful expression in writing or speech; an elaborate metaphor.
I constantly have thoughts that I can do something better than someone else. It fuels me at times. Yet again, it is something that I re-actively check. Sometimes this takes some time.
4) Restlessness - Characterized by or showing inability to remain at rest: a restless mood. Unquiet or uneasy, as a person, the mind, or the heart.
Hit and miss. At best I am completely rested and content in the moment. There are other times, mostly as of late, that everything is restless. Sleep, meditation, life.
5) Ignorance - Ignorance is a state of being uninformed (lack of knowledge).[1] The word ignorant is an adjective describing a person in the state of being unaware and is often used as an insult to describe individuals who deliberately ignore or disregard important information or facts.
Utterly. I would like to think it is brief and secluded to the moment as reflection relieves the ignorance, mostly followed by guilt of an action.
Eleven Fruits
1) Equanimity - mental calmness, composure, and evenness of temper, especially in a difficult situation
Hit and miss as of late, however there have been times of great equanimity. It all depends on my attention in the moment, if I am self-aware then a sufficing level of equanimity is accompanied. However, there are times when I am restless and uncomfortable that equanimity is something that I grasp at.
2) Fearlessness - lacking fear
I dont care enough about anything anymore to be afraid. I am at the point of surrender, broken, anything could happen and I wouldnt care.
3) Beyond Pain and Discomfort
Not even close, everything is pain and discomfort.
4) Meditative Absorption
Yes.
5) Manomaya lit. "mind-made body" (OOB) - "wields manifold supranormal powers"
2 experiences that I can remember, both i can only remember leaving and returning.
6) Clairaudience "divine ear-element"
Every waking hour, loud.
7) Mental Telepathy - knows the awareness of other beings
Words and feelings. Any feeling from another person who I am in close proximity to i feel it in myself, like absorbing their feeling into myself. This is accompanied by some thoughts, mostly just a passing word. Intensity can vary. This is a very taxing quality, as it drains me both emotionally and physically.
8 ) Recollection of Manifold Past Lives - lit. “rethinking” or "dependent origination"
Yes. Some of them.
9) Clairvoyance - "Divine eye" or "sees beings passing away & re-appearing." The faculty of perceiving things or events in the future or beyond normal sensory contact.
I have had some experiences with this, although it is not a developed faculty.
10) Ending of Mental Agitation
Hit and miss.
11) Direct Knowledge/Transcendent Insight(?) - lit “knowledge" (nana) and "vision" (dassana)
No.
Verdict?
Verdict is this place is Hell.
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Very interesting response, Cal. A good example of self awareness, which takes honesty.
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Verdict is this place is Hell.
Hey Cal,
I am sorry to hear you are not feeling well, although in your daily life I am sure you are otherwise content. I am certain we are in hell too, but it could be worse. I am grateful I am in a safe place in the world, around otherwise good people, with a roof over my head, food on the table, and more or less warm at night.
I find when I count my blessings, and keep that feeling, then I can relax and let go. Surrender. Life can be fun, and you don't need to generate suffering do it. Who is saying you can't? Why limit yourself?
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Cal, i found what you wrote very interesting, an honest and clearly investigated account of where you are at. I understand how you feel about this place being hell, sometimes i feel that as well, but it mostly seems to be generated from humans where as being out in the countryside walking the dog, and looking at things like spiders in the hedgerow weaving webs, dragonfly's buzzing around, that is beauty.
I think despite the horrors that take place in this world, again mostly by humans or as a result of human action or inaction, there is great beauty as well, stunning works of some greater force operating within the moment. I find spending time in nature and with good hearted and open minded people can really help, it's a shame the hellish stuff happens as alot of it doesn't have to happen, it's just that humans are too bogged down in unwholesome mind states to realise what they are doing.
I do think it's about perspective as well, how you view the world. I do believe this life to be a gift, being in this form, a part of the greater whole which is aware of it's self, seems like an anomaly, a rarity. Because of this i want to commit fully to finding truth, in whatever form that may be, it seems that deep meditation and moment to moment awareness is the tool which offers the greatest chance of truth being found as per history, well that or drugs of some kind im not sure about how permanent that is though.
I hope you find some inner peace soon, despite being mostly happy and in love with life when i have been down in the past i find it's almost always because i dont have enough compassion for my self, for others or im bogged down in unwholesome states of mind. I do think that this disgust at the state of things is a natural part of the spiritual process, the dark night. A thought that popped into my mind the other night whilst meditating was "the ultimate form of control is surrender".
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Verdict is this place is Hell.
Hey Cal,
I am sorry to hear you are not feeling well, although in your daily life I am sure you are otherwise content. I am certain we are in hell too, but it could be worse. I am grateful I am in a safe place in the world, around otherwise good people, with a roof over my head, food on the table, and more or less warm at night.
I find when I count my blessings, and keep that feeling, then I can relax and let go. Surrender. Life can be fun, and you don't need to generate suffering do it. Who is saying you can't? Why limit yourself?
My daily life is quite content, yes. I do have all that I need to physically survive, and I should be more grateful for them. what I wrote above is a reflection. I feel as though in order to efface the identity I must be brutally honest with it. I must point my own flaws out whenever they show themselves, otherwise ill never be rid of them. I feel as though even if it is something that I have brought some subconcious attention to, it can be remedied in a meditation session. It is quite grim, and not at all a fun place to be in. However, fun is not something I have considered for a long time. Since even before finding the charisms life has always been about a distraction. Ill admit that there were some laughs, but never anything that i could look back on and say that was a "fun time". Perhaps it is my perspective on things. Fun was always fleeting, it would arise and then fall away almost as quickly as it arose. Impermanent. But while on the subject, cliff jumping and skydiving were definitely the most exillerating experiences in my life. My younger years I chased adrenaline for distraction. But it always came back to this place, one of self-reflection and dis-contentment. I have not been able to find a purpose to this life, and I've searched about as high and low as one could. So, as far as limiting myself, I believe it more a product of life itself and my own perspective on things. So while I do believe that I am generating suffering, I also feel it is most necessary. Thank you for your kind words and concerns though, and I do enjoy reading your experiences here.
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My daily life is quite content, yes. I do have all that I need to physically survive, and I should be more grateful for them. what I wrote above is a reflection. I feel as though in order to efface the identity I must be brutally honest with it. I must point my own flaws out whenever they show themselves, otherwise ill never be rid of them. I feel as though even if it is something that I have brought some subconcious attention to, it can be remedied in a meditation session. It is quite grim, and not at all a fun place to be in. However, fun is not something I have considered for a long time. Since even before finding the charisms life has always been about a distraction. Ill admit that there were some laughs, but never anything that i could look back on and say that was a "fun time". Perhaps it is my perspective on things. Fun was always fleeting, it would arise and then fall away almost as quickly as it arose. Impermanent. But while on the subject, cliff jumping and skydiving were definitely the most exhilarating experiences in my life. My younger years I chased adrenaline for distraction. But it always came back to this place, one of self-reflection and dis-contentment. I have not been able to find a purpose to this life, and I've searched about as high and low as one could. So, as far as limiting myself, I believe it more a product of life itself and my own perspective on things. So while I do believe that I am generating suffering, I also feel it is most necessary. Thank you for your kind words and concerns though, and I do enjoy reading your experiences here.
Oh that is so interesting how you view fun! Yesterday at work I was teaching a new co-worker of mine how to use the till, and it got super busy and she made some mistakes. She was so nervous! Afterwards, I was hyper and said to her, "Wasn't all that fear so much fun? I am just pumped, just inject the heroin into my veins! RAWR!"
I don't necessarily view fun as something that has to have a good feeling. After I had my first lucid experience with the black while sleeping, I woke up in a crypto-psychotic state. It shook off after a few hours and I joked to myself, "Well that was a laugh and a half, a couple toots. Let's do it again!" I have gone through such depths of unpleasant emotion, nothing can change who I am. Fun can be anything how I define it. It is letting go and being right there in the moment. I mean, isn't that why we are here? Isn't that part of enlightenment?
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My daily life is quite content, yes. I do have all that I need to physically survive, and I should be more grateful for them. what I wrote above is a reflection. I feel as though in order to efface the identity I must be brutally honest with it. I must point my own flaws out whenever they show themselves, otherwise ill never be rid of them. I feel as though even if it is something that I have brought some subconcious attention to, it can be remedied in a meditation session. It is quite grim, and not at all a fun place to be in. However, fun is not something I have considered for a long time. Since even before finding the charisms life has always been about a distraction. Ill admit that there were some laughs, but never anything that i could look back on and say that was a "fun time". Perhaps it is my perspective on things. Fun was always fleeting, it would arise and then fall away almost as quickly as it arose. Impermanent. But while on the subject, cliff jumping and skydiving were definitely the most exhilarating experiences in my life. My younger years I chased adrenaline for distraction. But it always came back to this place, one of self-reflection and dis-contentment. I have not been able to find a purpose to this life, and I've searched about as high and low as one could. So, as far as limiting myself, I believe it more a product of life itself and my own perspective on things. So while I do believe that I am generating suffering, I also feel it is most necessary. Thank you for your kind words and concerns though, and I do enjoy reading your experiences here.
Oh that is so interesting how you view fun! Yesterday at work I was teaching a new co-worker of mine how to use the till, and it got super busy and she made some mistakes. She was so nervous! Afterwards, I was hyper and said to her, "Wasn't all that fear so much fun? I am just pumped, just inject the heroin into my veins! RAWR!"
I don't necessarily view fun as something that has to have a good feeling. After I had my first lucid experience with the black while sleeping, I woke up in a crypto-psychotic state. It shook off after a few hours and I joked to myself, "Well that was a laugh and a half, a couple toots. Let's do it again!" I have gone through such depths of unpleasant emotion, nothing can change who I am. Fun can be anything how I define it. It is letting go and being right there in the moment. I mean, isn't that why we are here? Isn't that part of enlightenment?
I agree, we are here to live in the moment and is most certainly the path to enlightenment, as the Buddha tells it. Taking what is positive from a negative situation is an understandable coarse. What I hope to accomplish is to remove the perception of any events so that there cannot be a positive, or a negative to any given case. That there will be only a contentment in the moment, neutral in all senses. From my understanding, being self aware in the moment is key to this. Watching a feeling arise and then fall without grasping it, or acting or reacting to it is the path to the removal of that feeling, along with meditation. Imagine a world in which nothing can effect you, negative or positive. That everything passes you by, the needs for interactions fall away. The identity has been removed and youre no longer forced to walk a path of suffering. Lets be honest, most everything in this life leads to some sort of suffering. Imagine being only an observer and there is no longer a reason to retreat or fight, as youre completely uneffected.
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Cal, i found what you wrote very interesting, an honest and clearly investigated account of where you are at. I understand how you feel about this place being hell, sometimes i feel that as well, but it mostly seems to be generated from humans where as being out in the countryside walking the dog, and looking at things like spiders in the hedgerow weaving webs, dragonfly's buzzing around, that is beauty.
I think despite the horrors that take place in this world, again mostly by humans or as a result of human action or inaction, there is great beauty as well, stunning works of some greater force operating within the moment. I find spending time in nature and with good hearted and open minded people can really help, it's a shame the hellish stuff happens as alot of it doesn't have to happen, it's just that humans are too bogged down in unwholesome mind states to realise what they are doing.
I do think it's about perspective as well, how you view the world. I do believe this life to be a gift, being in this form, a part of the greater whole which is aware of it's self, seems like an anomaly, a rarity. Because of this i want to commit fully to finding truth, in whatever form that may be, it seems that deep meditation and moment to moment awareness is the tool which offers the greatest chance of truth being found as per history, well that or drugs of some kind im not sure about how permanent that is though.
I hope you find some inner peace soon, despite being mostly happy and in love with life when i have been down in the past i find it's almost always because i dont have enough compassion for my self, for others or im bogged down in unwholesome states of mind. I do think that this disgust at the state of things is a natural part of the spiritual process, the dark night. A thought that popped into my mind the other night whilst meditating was "the ultimate form of control is surrender".
Thank you PeacefulDodo for your reply. I'd like to note that the above comments "This life is hell." and "Everything is pain and discomfort." are not a consistent thought process, rather, they were thought very broadly. I do not think on the pain and discomfort that I have, rather it is something I am aware of being present, if that makes sense.
I agree with you on so many points. The world and the people around us are most certainly ignorant to their own plights. They are bogged down by unwholesome mind states. Also, in that the ultimate form of control is surrender. Yet, compassion for oneself is not something I could agree on. My reasoning for this is sympathy for oneself would lead to an excuse, or a "hiding place" within the identity (Ive made this mistake). Compassion for others...this is not something I have thought on lately. I have notice that my "heart chakra" has been almost unnoticable lately. I am unsure if this is something that i should focus on at this point.
At this stage in my journey I am certain that it my resolve and endurance that is being tested, so I strive on trying to be as self-aware as I can be. :)
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I had a very interesting discussion with another contemplative last night about paths to enlightenment. It was his belief that there would come a time when one would just know when they are enlightened, and that work has been done. While I agree with this, I also disagree. "A tree is known by its fruit". This is something I have reminded myself of, and has often left me humbled; there is much more that I still need to learn.
In reading the writings of the mystic I have seen "stages". That specific hardships could serve as a milestone along the path. An example of this would be meditative absorption. I would first expect someone to be able to recount a Kundalini awakening experience before I could accept that they are indeed experiencing deep meditative states. I also know that this event is preceded by the realization of the 4 Noble truths. Sometimes the discernment of these events is difficult, yet there are key aspects to it that would need to be described before I could actually believe them.
I have found this to be the case with other developments of the superior fruit as well, and often, deep realizations and hardships have been what I have referenced as indication.
So while discussing what he described as instant enlightenment. He referred to canonical sources, and even linked a short passage from MN, however, I am unable to find the exact passage to reference it in its entirety; however I'll type out what he linked, and go from there.
...determination with the mind. When I do so there will be no unwholesome states, such as covetousness, ill-will, and presumption in me, and with abandoning them my mind acquires confidence in this (foundation). Once there is full confidence, he either attains to imperturbable now or else he resolves [upon it] in wisdom. On the dissolution of body, after death, it is possible that the evolving consciousness may pass on [to rebirth] in the imperturbable...the first way to imperturbable.
Gosh in writing this I also realize that I am shooting myself in the foot by even engaging in this....the struggle is real. Yet maybe someone else can derive motivation to continue searching from reading this.
In the passage above, I collect that determination is the spiritual will. Presumption, unwholesome states, ill-will, and covetousness I understand as primarily unknown factors; those that needs be let go of, as they are faculties of the subconscious, and will ultimately lead you where they WILL upon OOBE or death...Let go or be dragged, as the Zen proverb puts it.
So when I read "he either attains to imperturbable now", I understand this as an accomplished meditator. One who understands the 4 stages of Jhana thoroughly, and has learned from them experientially, and thus has full awareness and full will in the OOBE or death.
The debate arose on "he resolves [upon it] in wisdom". His take was that through contemplation, one needs not experience. He used Ananda as an example in attaining full enlightenment upon the death of the Buddha. He also referenced others that upon meeting the Buddha, they also attained full enlightenment. Again, I remind myself that a tree is known by its fruit. How could there be such thing as "poof" enlightened, if it contradicts the entire teaching all-together. Well I say not likely, however, it is recounted.
A problem that I run into is that wisdom, from my own view, is knowing. Knowing is taught through experience. I know that I am not as smart as some, and perhaps I am unable to see the direct correlation between simply reading and contemplating to experiencing and knowing. I see that they walk hand in hand and not separate.
My own take from "he resolves [upon it] in wisdom" is that enough is known to take the final steps needed; which supported his side of the debate.
Can the GWV offer any insight into this?
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I had a very interesting discussion with another contemplative last night about paths to enlightenment. It was his belief that there would come a time when one would just know when they are enlightened, and that work has been done. While I agree with this, I also disagree. "A tree is known by its fruit". This is something I have reminded myself of, and has often left me humbled; there is much more that I still need to learn.
This is so true, because we have too many people who genuinely believe that they are enlightened, and yet they demonstrate none of the superior fruit of enlightenment.
In reading the writings of the mystic I have seen "stages". That specific hardships could serve as a milestone along the path. An example of this would be meditative absorption. I would first expect someone to be able to recount a Kundalini awakening experience before I could accept that they are indeed experiencing deep meditative states. I also know that this event is preceded by the realization of the 4 Noble truths. Sometimes the discernment of these events is difficult, yet there are key aspects to it that would need to be described before I could actually believe them.
I have found this to be the case with other developments of the superior fruit as well, and often, deep realizations and hardships have been what I have referenced as indication.
This is also true, and we have to expect that the language of that experience is going to change from culture to culture and period to period. For instance in Hinduism and Buddhism the experience that is called 'kundalini' today was called 'viray.' 2000 years ago. In Christianity the experience that is called 'kundalini' today was called 'slain in the spirit' at one time in the past.
So while discussing what he described as instant enlightenment. He referred to canonical sources, and even linked a short passage from MN, however, I am unable to find the exact passage to reference it in its entirety; however I'll type out what he linked, and go from there.
...determination with the mind. When I do so there will be no unwholesome states, such as covetousness, ill-will, and presumption in me, and with abandoning them my mind acquires confidence in this (foundation). Once there is full confidence, he either attains to imperturbable now or else he resolves [upon it] in wisdom. On the dissolution of body, after death, it is possible that the evolving consciousness may pass on [to rebirth] in the imperturbable...the first way to imperturbable.
The problem with this quote is no reference at all is made to jhana, which is the 8th fold of the Noble Eightfold Path, so whom ever quoted this obscure section of the suttas is most probably deluding themselves.
Gosh in writing this I also realize that I am shooting myself in the foot by even engaging in this....the struggle is real. Yet maybe someone else can derive motivation to continue searching from reading this.
In the passage above, I collect that determination is the spiritual will. Presumption, unwholesome states, ill-will, and covetousness I understand as primarily unknown factors; those that needs be let go of, as they are faculties of the subconscious, and will ultimately lead you where they WILL upon OOBE or death...Let go or be dragged, as the Zen proverb puts it.
So when I read "he either attains to imperturbable now", I understand this as an accomplished meditator. One who understands the 4 stages of Jhana thoroughly, and has learned from them experientially, and thus has full awareness and full will in the OOBE or death.
Yes, I agree
The debate arose on "he resolves [upon it] in wisdom". His take was that through contemplation, one needs not experience. He used Ananda as an example in attaining full enlightenment upon the death of the Buddha. He also referenced others that upon meeting the Buddha, they also attained full enlightenment. Again, I remind myself that a tree is known by its fruit. How could there be such thing as "poof" enlightened, if it contradicts the entire teaching all-together. Well I say not likely, however, it is recounted.
A problem that I run into is that wisdom, from my own view, is knowing. Knowing is taught through experience. I know that I am not as smart as some, and perhaps I am unable to see the direct correlation between simply reading and contemplating to experiencing and knowing. I see that they walk hand in hand and not separate.
My own take from "he resolves [upon it] in wisdom" is that enough is known to take the final steps needed; which supported his side of the debate.
Can the GWV offer any insight into this?
This is a classic resort of the devout who never lead a rigorous, self-aware contemplative life; and just want to take a lobotomy for a belief system.
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Just saw this, Alexander. Finally some hope!
I can see myself here. Was getting a big--I don't know, humbled, talking to others at how little I have achieved, spiritually.
Good to see I have most of these on the list. Restlessness is a big problem for me as is pride.
I'll read the articles on continue to practice. That's pretty much all it boils down to for me, more practice. This is why I don't ask much nor contribute much.
But I do take great spiritual sustenance from the community.
The outage made me appreciate it even more.
Thanks all.
Here are some ideas I use for discerning attainment. I try to be very conservative. If I do not know someone well enough, I will not make a judgment. I do not claim my judgments are indisputable, but I have not met someone with a system comparable to my own.
(I) The Four Noble Ones
Streamwinner
These days this is the hardest one for me. I need to be very well acquainted with the person. Critical to me about streamwinners is:
- They have a belief in "something more" than what can be seen or felt. This can be expressed in different ways. The person may have contradictory beliefs, but that does not compromise streamwinning.
- Streamwinners are able to instill mystic knowledge with the importance it deserves.
- Streamwinners can distinguish between mystic knowledge and ordinary knowledge.
That last point is very important. It's what makes streamwinners special. If they were not seeking liberation, they would not be able to distinguish "mystic" knowledge from regular knowledge.
Once-returner
The two major human fetters - sensuality and ill will - have been weakened. This person can never take human affairs seriously in the way an ordinary person can. They have already discovered something very great, though they may not understand what intellectually. While a streamwinner is a "seeker" in the absolute sense, a once-returner is already a "finder" in the relative sense.
Another thing I look for in once-returners is a major personal transformation. In my experience such an event is universal. But, I try to remember that the person may not invest this event with personal significance. He could see it as something unique to him, and not as a natural part of spiritual growth.
Nonreturner
These people are very rare in the world. But I always see them. They are very interesting people, because they have a great amount of gravity beneath the surface.
A nonreturner has totally effaced the human fetters. This means he will not return to the human realm again. That is very profound.
Arahant
The supreme state of man spiritually. I look for the dark night of the soul, profound emotional and intellectual refinement, and the religious experience.
(II) What are some of the things I look for in general?
Streamwinner:
- belief in mystic knowledge
- belief in a "way out of the world"
- respect given to spiritual teachers but an admittance of what one doesn't know
Important fetters:
- Sensuality
- Ill will
- Restlessness
Also:
- Inconsistency, pride, or lack of equilibrium; usually this shows a person who lacks self-knowledge - tied to the fetter of restlessness
Important events:
- A transformative experience that alters the person's vision of himself and the world
- The dark night of the soul
Attainments:
- Self-arising joy
- The ability to be alone and be happy
- A consistent self behind all the roles we play in a day
- The still mind
- A gravity when in the person's presence; not tangible to the ordinary person
(III) Critical things to read
(1) The Buddha's explanation of the 4 stages of liberation: Excellent chart (http://i.imgur.com/1WJPF8X.png).
(2) Ouspensky's writings on the 4 higher kinds of man: The Psychology of Man's Possible Evolution, 54-55; Fragments of an Unknown Teaching, 71-73.
(3) R. M. Bucke's list of people throughout history: Cosmic Consciousness.
(IV) Important threads
Ramana Maharshi an arahant based on 2 crises and evidence of the religious experience: http://fruitofthecontemplativelife.org/forum/index.php/topic,540.0.html
List of Socrates, Walt Whitman and others and their attainment based on jhana: http://fruitofthecontemplativelife.org/forum/index.php/topic,591.0.html
Vision of the Noble Ones as a spiritual gift: http://fruitofthecontemplativelife.org/forum/index.php/topic,727.0.html
Michel's blog: http://fruitofthecontemplativelife.org/forum/index.php/topic,767.15.html
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I have 1-10.
I love living; I love being human. I want to be re-born here.
I find human life to be satisfying and amazing.
That said, I'd also like to meditate and to reach higher states especially the jhanas. But this desire for jhana, currently, is weaker than my desire to live my life.
I practice as much as I can, though, and will do so until I die.
I do have faith in Buddhist practice, in meditation, and even that people in this group have spiritual attainment and knowledge beyond my own.
Otherwise, I'm very conceited and narcissistic.
This will be a place where I intend to intellectually hammer down on what level of attainment I might be at. I hope it becomes useful for others. I am using definitions from the internet because I feel like no one has ever given them! It is strange that I see these words over and over, and yet hardly a relative definition to go along with them.
5 Lower Fetters
1) Narcissism - extreme selfishness, with a grandiose view of one's own talents and a craving for admiration, as characterizing a personality type.
Anyone who knows me says I have none, which is a marked contrast to when I was in my early 20's. Now that I'm externally processing it like this, I'm remembering that I am almost certain I didn't have any narcissism when I was young. I can't remember the last time I even took anything "personal", or cared about how I look (beyond the knowledge that I should make an effort to look "good" for my partner and her parents because those things matter to them.) God, that is such a wonderful feeling of freedom.
2) Skeptical doubt - Denying or questioning the tenets of a religion. regarding the doctrines or opinions of philosophical Skeptics.
I don't think I have any of this. I do remember a moment yesterday when I was reflecting on the fetters, and I thought "What if the deathless isn't actually true? Sure, Enlightenment is real, and you can attain arahantship and become conscious at all times; but what if when the physical body dies none of it ends up mattering?" But, there isn't a single thing, thought or anything which suggests the deathless isn't true, other than the fact that I haven't attained the deathless and finished this human life.
3) Clinging to rules, rights and rituals - This is pretty straight-forward. I think a good example is someone saying "You can't do that; it's illegal."
This is similar to my response to narcissim. I have absolutely no clinging to these things. In fact, when I was young (as early as 7 years old) I distinctly remember already being to this point, which got me in trouble often and left me confused and frustrated. Oh wow. i can't believe it. That's true. I never thought of it before. Anyway, regarding "rituals", I do have to unplug everything in my room and hide the few "valuables" I have before I leave my house. I think that's anxiety from sensing energies, though.
4) Desire for sensuality - Sensual means physically pleasing. It often is used in a sexual context, but is not exclusively sexual in meaning.
This is difficult to answer. My first thought is "No. None." Even when I was young, I never thought about sex or was interested in having a girlfriend. It was something "learned", just like the clinging to rites and rituals. My greatest concern in regards to this is that I use psychoactive medications to ease the difficulties and numb the pain of human life (aches, pains, sensing negative energies, being around too many people, no interest in worldly things.)
5) Ill-will or aversion - Animosity or bitterness. A strong dislike or disinclination.
No, I don't have any of this. I do have preferences, like silence, stillness, and solitude. And, I also have a preference against ordinary jobs because I've failed to keep SO many of them. Also, I avoid running out of medication at almost all costs. Also, I experience fear when the light of annihilation comes. The identity always jumps in and ruins it with evasive action.
5 Higher Fetters
1) Craving for Material Existence - Craving to be a human or animal, for example. (?)
I had this when I was younger. I wanted to be a cat. In terms of what I am consciously aware of, I do not have any craving for material existence. I crave "Home."
2) Craving for Immaterial Existence - Craving to be an angel/deva (?)
This is tough to answer, because I've only experienced the lower immaterial plane a few times. It seems pretty great up there, but it's not "Home."
3) Conceit - Excessive pride in oneself. A fanciful expression in writing or speech; an elaborate metaphor.
As of lately, I don't think I have this either. Which is making me think I'm seriously delusional to have made it this far down the fetters without admitting wholeheartedly to being guilty of one of them. I do put a good deal of effort into writing and other communication. But whenever it's something good, I can see it wasn't me, but the Dhamma. Often I write something intending it to say one thing, and then it ends up being even better than I intended. As if it "snuck" in or something. And I know I didn't do that on purpose. Sometimes I'll write a Facebook post to help stimulate contemplation in others, and I don't even know why I'm writing what I'm writing--it's just inspired. It only makes complete sense upon contemplating it.
4) Restlessness - Characterized by or showing inability to remain at rest: a restless mood. Unquiet or uneasy, as a person, the mind, or the heart.
Yes, I think i sometimes get this. One example is that I keep having to rearrange my legs, as I am sitting cross legged on the floor to type this, and the pain tells me to move the legs. I also wonder if without my medications (after withdrawal), if I would be more restless. Yes, I do think I have this, but I think it is mediated a lot by vaping (an electronic cigarette I use) and music.
5) Ignorance - Ignorance is a state of being uninformed (lack of knowledge).[1] The word ignorant is an adjective describing a person in the state of being unaware and is often used as an insult to describe individuals who deliberately ignore or disregard important information or facts.
I can't answer this one. If I was ignorant, I don't think I would know it. Wait, yes, I think I am a little bit ignorant. Sometimes my partner will suggest something, or someone else will, and it doesn't even register because I'm absorbed in some other contemplation or thought.
Hopefully somewhere in there can be identified the fetters I still have. I intend to come back and add all the rest of the marks of levels of enlightenment. Then future seekers or mystics can hopefully find it useful for them.
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As long as we continue to collaborate, Follinge, may we all attain the goals of our quest.
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The take-hope message here, follinge, is proper. and regular practice leads to attainment and liberation, so, it is good to read that you are dedicated to a practice that leads to fruitful attainment.