Sensation and "feeling" cravings during meditation

[Soren]

I have recently become more consciously aware of a hurdle I seem to be facing in meditation.

The phenomenon is distinguishing between feelings that are "jhanic" vs. ordinary pleasant feelings in the body.

Let me begin by describing feelings that are ordinary: the feeling of shivering can be pleasant, the stretching of the limbs, or feeling of the skin on the outside of the body can be mildly pleasant. All of these pleasant feelings often follow a craving and can be self generated. We can make ourselves shiver and experience that pleasantness afterwards for example.

During meditation I was clinging to subtle feelings of pleasure in the body that are related to the feelings that occur normally. The reason I say "related" is because they weren't directly the result of sense contact. For example, the feeling of being "spaced out" is for the mast part a sensation that occurs in the head. The feeling of mild laziness in the limbs, or of the heartbeat throughout the body is an ordinary sensation.

I was attaching myself to feelings like this, and as a result they got a little strange. I would be distracted by the pounding of the heartbeat in my head during the day - and of a series of muscle relaxation/tensions that would occur afterward. Or a slight feeling behind the eyes of being "spaced out" was distracting me.

The reason I was attaching to them is because they can be pleasant. However they don't seem like anything worth searching for because a) They were never that pleasant b) They were distracting and irritating at times and c) They were for the most part my body giving into a craving that it can feed - in the same way that the desire to shiver is a craving that the body can feed itself (even if it is not cold).

When I went to meditate I was able to set aside distractions of daily life easily, but these feelings were distracting me from the breath. Occasionally I would "give in" to them because they could be pleasant - and jhana was supposed to be "suffusing the body with bliss," right?

But I decided that they weren't leading anywhere, and that they were actually a result of craving sensations and feelings. So I was able to find this craving in my body that was causing me to try and strangely feed them and I decided I wouldn't let this craving happen.

After a few days of not acquiescing I was able to stay with the breath much more easily. But then a rerun of the problem happened!

My body starts to get a subtle feeling of vibration that feels mildly pleasant.

When I ignore it and stay with the breath the pleasure increases some. The vibration in my body remains however. I have noticed that my body is able to crave this pleasantness, and so given the above story the conclusion would be to destroy the craving and the perception.

But when I ignore the pleasure in my body and stay with the breath it seems to grow and a few times I have felt the onset of emotional joy - but it hasn't lasted and I am not sure if it was authentic.

It seems similar in nature to the other feelings - however now it is more of an all body awareness and it could match the description of the first jhana: "permeating the body with bliss."

So I am very uncertain as to what type of feelings I should cultivate. On one hand these feelings seem to contradict:
"“So too, monks, here some wise, competent, skillful monk dwells contemplating the physical body, ardent, clearly comprehending, mindful, having removed covetousness and displeasure in regard to the world.

Because I have noticed that my body can crave them which would mean I was suspect to covetousness. But on the other hand:

"While he dwells contemplating phenomena, his (her) mind becomes absorbed (jhana), his (her) corruptions (nivarana) are abandoned he (she) picks up the sign (nimitta)” of absorption (jhana)."

"One should know how to define pleasure, and knowing that, one should persue pleasure within oneself."

I really don't know how to define pleasure within myself right now! "Picking up the sign" seems to imply noticing a sensation in the body that will lead to jhana -  but the sensations I am noticing in my body right now are craving-oriented.

Should I just ignore bodily phenomenon and stick with the breath until I notice something really strong? Or should I follow these bodily feelings of mine - which are similar to a type of relief found in breathing?

Can one please give an articulate description of the first jhana? I am aware that the distinguishment to be made for ordinary sensations vs. jhana is that the jhana has charisms, but I have also seen it written that the charisms typically begin to manifest in the third jhana.

[Jhanananda]

I have recently become more consciously aware of a hurdle I seem to be facing in meditation.

The phenomenon is distinguishing between feelings that are "jhanic" vs. ordinary pleasant feelings in the body.

Let me begin by describing feelings that are ordinary: the feeling of shivering can be pleasant, the stretching of the limbs, or feeling of the skin on the outside of the body can be mildly pleasant. All of these pleasant feelings often follow a craving and can be self generated. We can make ourselves shiver and experience that pleasantness afterwards for example.

During meditation I was clinging to subtle feelings of pleasure in the body that are related to the feelings that occur normally. The reason I say "related" is because they weren't directly the result of sense contact. For example, the feeling of being "spaced out" is for the mast part a sensation that occurs in the head. The feeling of mild laziness in the limbs, or of the heartbeat throughout the body is an ordinary sensation.

I was attaching myself to feelings like this, and as a result they got a little strange. I would be distracted by the pounding of the heartbeat in my head during the day - and of a series of muscle relaxation/tensions that would occur afterward. Or a slight feeling behind the eyes of being "spaced out" was distracting me.

The reason I was attaching to them is because they can be pleasant. However they don't seem like anything worth searching for because a) They were never that pleasant b) They were distracting and irritating at times and c) They were for the most part my body giving into a craving that it can feed - in the same way that the desire to shiver is a craving that the body can feed itself (even if it is not cold).

It is understandable that the Buddhist, who has read the suttas, would like to understand precisely what the suttas describe, so that one can understand whether one is having a successful meditation or not.  And, when we discuss the suttas with Buddhist priests they often have a fairly fantastic interpretation of the suttas, we tend to acquire fantastic expectations to the 8 stages of religious (samadhi) as they are described to us in Buddhism. 

My argument is the 8 stages of religious (samadhi) are shades of gray from the mundane to that fantastic.  So, the first jhana need not be fantastic, and is most probably quite mundane.  After all, the second jhana is the stilling of the mind, yet most people who report stilling the mind in meditation rarely report fantastic phenomena.

So, I believe what is behind the piti and sukha terms that are used in the suttas as part of the description of the 1st jhana, is simply learning to value the small pleasures we gain in the practice of meditation.  The reason why we need to value the small pleasures we gain in the practice of meditation is we need to learn to meditate every day, and for long periods of time, if we are going to negotiate all  8 stages of religious (samadhi).

And, when one learns to value those small pleasures we gain in the practice of meditation, then one is encouraged to practice meditation every day.  And, when we practice meditation every day for more than just 20 minutes, then we learn to relax in meditation, we then savor those small pleasures we gain in the practice of meditation, and we look forward to those small pleasures, and slowly the pursuit of the many distractions in life become not so attractive, or at least we might say to our self, "Well, let me meditate first."

When I went to meditate I was able to set aside distractions of daily life easily, but these feelings were distracting me from the breath. Occasionally I would "give in" to them because they could be pleasant - and jhana was supposed to be "suffusing the body with bliss," right?

One of the many things we must do, if we are going to be successful in deep meditation, is to analyze why others do not succeed in meditation practice where we would like to succeed.  I think one of the many mistakes people make in the contemplative life is they become obsessed with the meditation object, so that when the subtle pleasant feelings of the 8 stages of religious (samadhi) first begin to arise, we tend to push them away, because we want to attend to our meditation object.  However, since the second jhana is free of vitaka and viccara, then it must also be free of the meditation object, so the person who is not successful in arriving at the second jhana is the person who has become obsessed with his/her meditation object, and never lets it go.

But I decided that they weren't leading anywhere, and that they were actually a result of craving sensations and feelings. So I was able to find this craving in my body that was causing me to try and strangely feed them and I decided I wouldn't let this craving happen.

Here, Soren, you might just be obsessing over what is craving, verse what is craving.  Obsessing is one of those things we have to let go of as well.  So, just let go, relax and allow the meditation experience do whatever it is going to do, while you meditate, which has to include relaxing deeply, if one is going to be successful with the practice of meditation.

After a few days of not acquiescing I was able to stay with the breath much more easily. But then a rerun of the problem happened!

My body starts to get a subtle feeling of vibration that feels mildly pleasant.

That subtle feeling of vibration might just be a charism (jhana-nimitta), which one would want to pay attention to.  But, then, maybe not.

When I ignore it and stay with the breath the pleasure increases some. The vibration in my body remains however. I have noticed that my body is able to crave this pleasantness, and so given the above story the conclusion would be to destroy the craving and the perception.

So, here you might be confused as to what craving is.  Craving is obsessing over something, which is normally related to one of the 10 hindrances.  So, maybe you can use the hindrances as a way to determine if you are craving something, verses a natural response to the pleasure of bliss (piti).

The Five Hindrances (nivarana) to Enlightenment 1)    Sensual desire    (kamacchandra) 2)    Ill-will or aversion    (vyapada) 3)    Restlessness, remorse, anxiety   (uddhacca-kukkucca) 4)    Sloth and Unconsciousness    (thina-middha) 5)    Skeptical Doubt    (vicikiccha)

10 Fetters (samyojana) tying beings to the wheel of existence: 5 Lower Fetters (orambhagiya-samyojana) 1   Narcissism, provincialism, clan identification   sakkaya-ditthi 2   Skepticism & doubt    vicikiccha 3   Clinging to rules, rights and rituals   silabbata-paramasa; s. upadana 4   erotic craving    kama-raga 5   Ill-will or aversion    vyapada 5 Higher Fetters (uddhambhagiya-samyojana) 1   Craving for material existence or Lust for form    rupa-raga 2   Craving for immaterial or formless existence    arupa-raga 3   Conceit    mana 4   Restlessness   uddhacca 5   Ignorance   avija

But when I ignore the pleasure in my body and stay with the breath it seems to grow and a few times I have felt the onset of emotional joy - but it hasn't lasted and I am not sure if it was authentic.

It seems similar in nature to the other feelings - however now it is more of an all body awareness and it could match the description of the first jhana: "permeating the body with bliss."

So I am very uncertain as to what type of feelings I should cultivate. On one hand these feelings seem to contradict:
"“So too, monks, here some wise, competent, skillful monk dwells contemplating the physical body, ardent, clearly comprehending, mindful, having removed covetousness and displeasure in regard to the world.

Because I have noticed that my body can crave them which would mean I was suspect to covetousness. But on the other hand:

"While he dwells contemplating phenomena, his (her) mind becomes absorbed (jhana), his (her) corruptions (nivarana) are abandoned he (she) picks up the sign (nimitta)” of absorption (jhana)."

"One should know how to define pleasure, and knowing that, one should persue pleasure within oneself."

I really don't know how to define pleasure within myself right now! "Picking up the sign" seems to imply noticing a sensation in the body that will lead to jhana -  but the sensations I am noticing in my body right now are craving-oriented.

Should I just ignore bodily phenomenon and stick with the breath until I notice something really strong? Or should I follow these bodily feelings of mine - which are similar to a type of relief found in breathing?

Can one please give an articulate description of the first jhana? I am aware that the distinguishment to be made for ordinary sensations vs. jhana is that the jhana has charisms, but I have also seen it written that the charisms typically begin to manifest in the third jhana.

I think at first it is best just to learn to relax deeply when one meditates, and to value the good things one gets out of meditation, and to work on stilling the mind.

[Soren]

My argument is the 8 stages of religious (samadhi) are shades of gray from the mundane to that fantastic.  So, the first jhana need not be fantastic, and is most probably quite mundane.  After all, the second jhana is the stilling of the mind, yet most people who report stilling the mind in meditation rarely report fantastic phenomena.

One of the many things we must do, if we are going to be successful in deep meditation, is to analyze why others do not succeed in meditation practice where we would like to succeed.  I think one of the many mistakes people make in the contemplative life is they become obsessed with the meditation object, so that when the subtle pleasant feelings of the 8 stages of religious (samadhi) first begin to arise, we tend to push them away, because we want to attend to our meditation object.  However, since the second jhana is free of vitaka and viccara, then it must also be free of the meditation object, so the person who is not successful in arriving at the second jhana is the person who has become obsessed with his/her meditation object, and never lets it go.

think at first it is best just to learn to relax deeply when one meditates, and to value the good things one gets out of meditation, and to work on stilling the mind.

That subtle feeling of vibration might just be a charism (jhana-nimitta), which one would want to pay attention to.  But, then, maybe not.

Well this pleasure is growing and is present with me for almost the entire day now - including the first 9 hours of the day of which I am not able to meditate because I am at school. I really think that I understand what the hurdle is. All I needed to do was apply my mindfulness to unpleasant sensations produced by the body itself. My body and mind are now learning to not produce them.

Doing this has freed me from that suffering and combined with the charism added bliss.

So, I believe what is behind the piti and sukha terms that are used in the suttas as part of the description of the 1st jhana, is simply learning to value the small pleasures we gain in the practice of meditation.  The reason why we need to value the small pleasures we gain in the practice of meditation is we need to learn to meditate every day, and for long periods of time, if we are going to negotiate all  8 stages of religious (samadhi).

And the more this pleasure is paid attention to, the more it is growing. Especially the "hitting of the off switch."

And, when one learns to value those small pleasures we gain in the practice of meditation, then one is encouraged to practice meditation every day.  And, when we practice meditation every day for more than just 20 minutes, then we learn to relax in meditation, we then savor those small pleasures we gain in the practice of meditation, and we look forward to those small pleasures, and slowly the pursuit of the many distractions in life become not so attractive, or at least we might say to our self, "Well, let me meditate first."

This "small" pleasure is on par with any other pleasure I have experienced before - combined with the fact that is continuous makes it feel much more satisfactory.

[Jhanananda]

Well this pleasure is growing and is present with me for almost the entire day now - including the first 9 hours of the day of which I am not able to meditate because I am at school. I really think that I understand what the hurdle is. All I needed to do was apply my mindfulness to unpleasant sensations produced by the body itself. My body and mind are now learning to not produce them.

Doing this has freed me from that suffering and combined with the charism added bliss.

And the more this pleasure is paid attention to, the more it is growing. Especially the "hitting of the off switch."

This "small" pleasure is on par with any other pleasure I have experienced before - combined with the fact that is continuous makes it feel much more satisfactory.

If one is leading a disciplined contemplative life, and finds pleasure, joy and fulfillment in that life, then we know that the pleasure that they are finding is not sensual pleasure, which is fleeting, and impermanent.  Whereas, you report you are finding a pleasure that endures through much of your day.  This pleasure disciplined contemplatives report brings with it the deepest level of fulfillment.  And, since you are reporting that you are stilling your mind, then we have supporting evidence that you have found a genuine fruitful contemplative life.

Now, the challenge for the disciplined contemplative, who wishes to sustain this fulfilling, and fruitful life, must maintain the lifestyle that produces this fruitful attainment.  And, the longer one maintains this fruitful lifestyle, the more saturated and suffused one becomes in this fulfilling and blissful attainment.  If you are able to maintain these fruit for several hours a day after meditation practice, then you are demonstrating that it is indeed possible to saturate oneself in this bliss, joy and ecstasy.

However, you will find, if you do not maintain this disciplined, rigorous, self-aware contemplatives lifestyle, then the pleasant fruit that you store up will soon dissipate; however, the more time you invest in this fruitful lifestyle, the more endurance you will find the fruit has.

[Soren]

10 Fetters (samyojana) tying beings to the wheel of existence:
5 Lower Fetters (orambhagiya-samyojana)
1   Narcissism, provincialism, clan identification   sakkaya-ditthi
2   Skepticism & doubt    vicikiccha
3   Clinging to rules, rights and rituals   silabbata-paramasa; s. upadana
4   erotic craving    kama-raga
5   Ill-will or aversion    vyapada

5 Higher Fetters (uddhambhagiya-samyojana)
1   Craving for material existence or Lust for form    rupa-raga
2   Craving for immaterial or formless existence    arupa-raga
3   Conceit    mana
4   Restlessness   uddhacca
5   Ignorance   avija

Is there a reason you translate the fourth fetter as erotic craving instead of sensual desires?

[Jhanananda]

Is there a reason you translate the fourth fetter as erotic craving instead of sensual desires?

Hello Soren, it is good to receive another inquiry from you.  Yes, there is a good reason why I translated 'kama-raga' as "erotic craving," instead of "sensual desires" or "sensual craving," which are other ways the 4th fetter are commonly mistranslated.

In English the term sensual has the connotation of the erotic, but it is not necessarily only used for the erotic.  In Buddhism, the English term 'sensuality' refers both to the the erotic and to attachment to the things of the senses, which is significant, because the senses is one of the 5 aggregates. 

However, if we examine the Sanskrit term 'kama' we find it has only one meaning.  That meaning is erotic, in the same way the Greek term 'eros,' means erotic love.  I need only point to the Sanskrit book, the Kama Sutra as my evidence. The Sanskrit book, the Kama Sutra is a sex manual where 64 positions of love-making are described. So, the use of the term 'sensual' can be misleading within a Buddhist context, when referring to the 4th fetter; whereas the use of the term 'erotic' is thus more precise.

[Cal]

I have recently become more consciously aware of a hurdle I seem to be facing in meditation.

The phenomenon is distinguishing between feelings that are "jhanic" vs. ordinary pleasant feelings in the body.

Let me begin by describing feelings that are ordinary: the feeling of shivering can be pleasant, the stretching of the limbs, or feeling of the skin on the outside of the body can be mildly pleasant. All of these pleasant feelings often follow a craving and can be self generated. We can make ourselves shiver and experience that pleasantness afterwards for example.

During meditation I was clinging to subtle feelings of pleasure in the body that are related to the feelings that occur normally. The reason I say "related" is because they weren't directly the result of sense contact. For example, the feeling of being "spaced out" is for the mast part a sensation that occurs in the head. The feeling of mild laziness in the limbs, or of the heartbeat throughout the body is an ordinary sensation.

I was attaching myself to feelings like this, and as a result they got a little strange. I would be distracted by the pounding of the heartbeat in my head during the day - and of a series of muscle relaxation/tensions that would occur afterward. Or a slight feeling behind the eyes of being "spaced out" was distracting me.

The reason I was attaching to them is because they can be pleasant. However they don't seem like anything worth searching for because a) They were never that pleasant b) They were distracting and irritating at times and c) They were for the most part my body giving into a craving that it can feed - in the same way that the desire to shiver is a craving that the body can feed itself (even if it is not cold).

It is understandable that the Buddhist, who has read the suttas, would like to understand precisely what the suttas describe, so that one can understand whether one is having a successful meditation or not.  And, when we discuss the suttas with Buddhist priests they often have a fairly fantastic interpretation of the suttas, we tend to acquire fantastic expectations to the 8 stages of religious (samadhi) as they are described to us in Buddhism. 

My argument is the 8 stages of religious (samadhi) are shades of gray from the mundane to that fantastic.  So, the first jhana need not be fantastic, and is most probably quite mundane.  After all, the second jhana is the stilling of the mind, yet most people who report stilling the mind in meditation rarely report fantastic phenomena.

So, I believe what is behind the piti and sukha terms that are used in the suttas as part of the description of the 1st jhana, is simply learning to value the small pleasures we gain in the practice of meditation.  The reason why we need to value the small pleasures we gain in the practice of meditation is we need to learn to meditate every day, and for long periods of time, if we are going to negotiate all  8 stages of religious (samadhi).

And, when one learns to value those small pleasures we gain in the practice of meditation, then one is encouraged to practice meditation every day.  And, when we practice meditation every day for more than just 20 minutes, then we learn to relax in meditation, we then savor those small pleasures we gain in the practice of meditation, and we look forward to those small pleasures, and slowly the pursuit of the many distractions in life become not so attractive, or at least we might say to our self, "Well, let me meditate first."

When I went to meditate I was able to set aside distractions of daily life easily, but these feelings were distracting me from the breath. Occasionally I would "give in" to them because they could be pleasant - and jhana was supposed to be "suffusing the body with bliss," right?

One of the many things we must do, if we are going to be successful in deep meditation, is to analyze why others do not succeed in meditation practice where we would like to succeed.  I think one of the many mistakes people make in the contemplative life is they become obsessed with the meditation object, so that when the subtle pleasant feelings of the 8 stages of religious (samadhi) first begin to arise, we tend to push them away, because we want to attend to our meditation object.  However, since the second jhana is free of vitaka and viccara, then it must also be free of the meditation object, so the person who is not successful in arriving at the second jhana is the person who has become obsessed with his/her meditation object, and never lets it go.

But I decided that they weren't leading anywhere, and that they were actually a result of craving sensations and feelings. So I was able to find this craving in my body that was causing me to try and strangely feed them and I decided I wouldn't let this craving happen.

Here, Soren, you might just be obsessing over what is craving, verse what is craving.  Obsessing is one of those things we have to let go of as well.  So, just let go, relax and allow the meditation experience do whatever it is going to do, while you meditate, which has to include relaxing deeply, if one is going to be successful with the practice of meditation.

After a few days of not acquiescing I was able to stay with the breath much more easily. But then a rerun of the problem happened!

My body starts to get a subtle feeling of vibration that feels mildly pleasant.

That subtle feeling of vibration might just be a charism (jhana-nimitta), which one would want to pay attention to.  But, then, maybe not.

When I ignore it and stay with the breath the pleasure increases some. The vibration in my body remains however. I have noticed that my body is able to crave this pleasantness, and so given the above story the conclusion would be to destroy the craving and the perception.

So, here you might be confused as to what craving is.  Craving is obsessing over something, which is normally related to one of the 10 hindrances.  So, maybe you can use the hindrances as a way to determine if you are craving something, verses a natural response to the pleasure of bliss (piti).

The Five Hindrances (nivarana) to Enlightenment 1)    Sensual desire    (kamacchandra) 2)    Ill-will or aversion    (vyapada) 3)    Restlessness, remorse, anxiety   (uddhacca-kukkucca) 4)    Sloth and Unconsciousness    (thina-middha) 5)    Skeptical Doubt    (vicikiccha)

10 Fetters (samyojana) tying beings to the wheel of existence: 5 Lower Fetters (orambhagiya-samyojana) 1   Narcissism, provincialism, clan identification   sakkaya-ditthi 2   Skepticism & doubt    vicikiccha 3   Clinging to rules, rights and rituals   silabbata-paramasa; s. upadana 4   erotic craving    kama-raga 5   Ill-will or aversion    vyapada 5 Higher Fetters (uddhambhagiya-samyojana) 1   Craving for material existence or Lust for form    rupa-raga 2   Craving for immaterial or formless existence    arupa-raga 3   Conceit    mana 4   Restlessness   uddhacca 5   Ignorance   avija

Dear GWV

I believe I am also confused about the definition of cravings. Specifically of the 4th fetter. Now without some form of "stimulation", I do not think of this. But ill tell you what, with that carrot in front of my nose, it is a very hard desire to relinquish. Yet I do not seek it, not like before. Can you explain this a little more, please?

I can elaborate more, if you'd like?

[Jhanon]

I would advise using Jhananda's translations.

The Five Lower Fetters
1.     sakkaya-ditthi           Narcissism
2.     vicikiccha                   Skeptical doubt
3.   silabbata-paramasa   Clinging to rules, rights and rituals
4.   kama-raga                   Desire for sensuality
5.   vyapada                   Ill-will or aversion

The Five Higher Fetters

1. rupa-raga   Craving for material existence
2. arupa-raga   Craving for immaterial existence
3. mana           Conceit
4. uddhacca   Restlessness
5. avija           Ignorance

I simply post this to stimulate a response from someone wiser than myself. But I see sensory desire, or desire for sensuality, as both broader and more accurate than "erotic craving."

You can visit the page on the GWV here, and may get your answer.

http://www.greatwesternvehicle.org/hindrances.htm

[Jhanon]

I will at least add my understanding of sensual desire, though. It is doing something for sake of sensual gratification rather than just doing it. There is a sutta where the Buddha is teaching and he asks Ananda(?) to finish the lesson because his back was in pain and it needed rest. However, if he just laid down because he wanted to, this would be sensual desire. So the first action was impersonal and the result of the natural cause of aging. The second was personal/identity needlessly creating cause to perpetuate itself. That's been my experience so far, although I honestly don't reflect on the fetters often.

[Cal]

Right, okay I see that. There are individuals that spend the majority of their time "chasing tail". Their life is centered around it, and therefor it is a distraction. My concern was having a partner and having sex. One only has sex for sensual pleasure, or with plans of conception. Now, I dont believe it to be of any concern, unless you allow it to become a distraction. For example, chasing tail becomes more important than maintaining a disciplined practice.

[Jhanon]

A good way I've found to look at it is "am I doing this for "me?" The Buddha rested his back for his back, not for "me", because there wasn't a "me." If it's selfish, then it's a fetter.

All that said, we are all at different places with different fetters. For example, I'm certain I no longer have the first three fetters. But the rest I can't be sure about. Is it restlessness, ignorance or is it sensory desire? Hard to tell because the fetters are so subtle until they are long gone.

I would like to see Jhananda's words on this.

[Jhanananda]

Not all of us need to be monks, nor do all of the mystics of the world spend their whole lifetime in monasticism.  In fact Mohammed had 5 wives, but he was nonetheless a mystic.  He did; however, become a mystic by meditating in a cave every day for about 10 years in which he was apparently a monk.

The point of avoiding craving of the senses is we mystics are seeking the mystical experience which is a pleasure that is not of the senses.  That is all.