Jay's Blog

[Jhanananda]

It was interesting reading the discussion here on OOB's and planets in the solar system.  It reminds me of an OOB I had last fall.  I was on this water world, but this planet was huge.  The water was calm, the sky and stars were so beautiful, and looking toward the planet was very darkish -- black with the hue of purple.  I was scared to enter.  I felt the water and I simultaneously felt its age.  There was this boat there with people and it was sinking.  They jumped off and I was there with them.  After the boat sank the men disappeared.   

Interesting OOBE.  It sounds like it might be prophetic, or a past lifetime.  Possibly on another world.

I have a question on Gotama's classification on absorption.  As I understand it, the material only relates to the physical, meaning the mind is taken out of the equation except for how it relates to those sensations. 

I am not clear on what you mean here, so I will be clear what I mean.  The 4 jhanas only refer to a depth of meditation in which we still have a sense of a body and an external world, even though the mind is still, a concept of self has diminished considerably, the experience is pleasurable, and there might be present sensory phenomena that does not originate from sensory stimulation.

I am unsure of the immaterial. 

The immaterial levels of depth in meditation have no sensory awareness of the physical world.  There is no physical body present, the cognitive faculties are greatly attenuated to awareness only, and it is a fully altered state of awareness in which we are in a completely different dimension.  Time and space are dilated, and we may find we can move as easily in time as we can in space.

We have discussed the black before, and it is seen as a transition.  This has been labelled as access concentration before, no?  What are other words for it?

Actually, Theravadan priests and meditation teachers dismiss everything that we discuss here as "merely access concentration."  I do not use that term, because it does not appear in the suttas.

What does he mean when he discusses the immaterial?  Can the immaterial manifest itself while awake? 

The immaterial dimensions exist whether we are aware of them or not.  We experience the immaterial dimensions in lucid dreaming and the OOBE.

I know from my experience I have had experiences in daily life where suddenly it feels like my mind expands.  There is a depth that is never-ending.  I am aware of more of my body, including this depth, and sometimes the different voices in my head increase like wild fire.  This depth has happened in meditations before, where most of my awareness of the body disappears, and I am aware of an infinite depth, beyond my comprehension.  Hell, I remember as I kid I would go into the basement, sit down close my eyes and go straight to this infinite depth and talk to God.  I would use words, and he communicates with this knowing, that has a feeling of purity.  Is this the beginning of the immaterial, as Gotama classifies it?  If not, what could the immaterial be?

This is an example of the level of self-awareness that I recommend during the waking state, as well as an experience of heightened awareness during an experience of deep meditation.

[jay.validus]

I am not clear on what you mean here, so I will be clear what I mean.

Okay, I am clear, thank you/

This is an example of the level of self-awareness that I recommend during the waking state, as well as an experience of heightened awareness during an experience of deep meditation.

What do you call this type of awareness?   Shallow or deep is too simplistic of a description for what one actually experiences.  And I do not like using definitions used by psychology, like panic, psychosis, or schizophrenic.  It implies a problem and lowers the status of the mystic to accept bigotry and discrimination.  I do not agree with this nor accept it.

[Jhanananda]

I know from my experience I have had experiences in daily life where suddenly it feels like my mind expands.  There is a depth that is never-ending.  I am aware of more of my body, including this depth, and sometimes the different voices in my head increase like wild fire.  This depth has happened in meditations before, where most of my awareness of the body disappears, and I am aware of an infinite depth, beyond my comprehension.  Hell, I remember as I kid I would go into the basement, sit down close my eyes and go straight to this infinite depth and talk to God.  I would use words, and he communicates with this knowing, that has a feeling of purity.  Is this the beginning of the immaterial, as Gotama classifies it?  If not, what could the immaterial be?

The 4 jhanas only refer to a material depth of meditation in which we still have a sense of a body and an external world, even though the mind is still, a concept of self has diminished considerably, the experience is pleasurable, and there might be present sensory phenomena that does not originate from sensory stimulation.

The immaterial levels of depth in meditation have no sensory awareness of the physical world.  There is no physical body present, the cognitive faculties are greatly attenuated to awareness only, and it is a fully altered state of awareness in which we are in a completely different dimension.  Time and space are dilated, and we may find we can move as easily in time as we can in space.

What do you call this type of awareness?   Shallow or deep is too simplistic of a description for what one actually experiences.  And I do not like using definitions used by psychology, like panic, psychosis, or schizophrenic.  It implies a problem and lowers the status of the mystic to accept bigotry and discrimination.  I do not agree with this nor accept it.

If you are aware of your body and its surrounding, then you are in one of the 4 phases of material depth of meditation.  At this level we can lose a relative sense of self, and our awareness can expand; however, if we are aware of our body and its surrounding, then we are in one of the 4 phases of material depth of meditation, which it sounded like you were in.

In the case of speaking to a spiritual entity, such as god, then this can be an experience of intuitive, revelatory, insight; or we are experiencing religious psychosis.  Only you can tell, or we can examine you for your relative attainment of the superior fruit of the spirit (charisms).

[jay.validus]

Sounds like a good answer.  Thank you Jeffery, I will keep this in mind.

[jay.validus]

Today is my last day until I head out for my next 10 day retreat.  I am excited, scared, and indifferent all at the same time.  I know how they can be very intense, but I also know how normal you can feel.  There are few choices in Canada, so I am going to the Alberta Vipassana Centre.  I have many concerns with Goenka centres.  While those concerns did cause a big tear inside me in my previous travels, I am stronger now. 

The place is far from silent, with Goenka chanting and giving evening discourses.  They have many rules which are cultish.  There is too much attachment to their meditation technique, and the assistant teachers cannot think for themselves.  That means if I have a concern, I cannot turn to them.  They have a script, and that is how they answer their questions.  There is no answer from the heart, and no answer from self-experience, unless it conforms to their leader's commentary.

Despite this, I am using it for what it being provided for: a place to meditate deeply, become a better person, and strengthen the spiritual senses.  Since Goenka is giving his evening discourses, I am bringing my own reading material.  I will bring Dark Night of the Soul, The Yoga-Sûtra of Patañjali (Jeffrey's Translation), and the Maha-satipatthana Sutta.  I am bringing a few other suttas, but I do not want to overwhelm myself.  I am bringing a few extra print-outs of Jeffrey's translations to give-away.  It is easier to read than those from Wisdom Publication.

Although I have no real goal with meditation and retreats, I still have some intention.  I want to deepen my awareness in my sleep cycle, hopefully making permanent changes. I have some intense memories of childhood arising, I want to deal with these.  There is some laziness inside me I wish would go away.  I want to be stronger to follow my ambition.  I have no attachment to the outcome, and I always count my blessings, but where there is a will there is a way.

Until next time...

[Alexander]

Good luck, Jay, I hope you come back reporting some interesting experiences!

[Michel]

Yes, Jay, good luck from me as well. Looking forward to reading your posts upon your return.

[Jhanananda]

Good to know that you are going on retreat soon, Jay.  I too used retreats led by teachers who did not understand deep meditation, as a place to practice deep meditation.  I just learned to keep my experiences to myself.  Otherwise the teachers would all get nervous.

[jay.validus]

I wanted to write to let everyone know that I am giving up my meditation practice, at least for a year.  For the past two years I have meditated, with great intensity in the past year.  Lately, I have been suffering from major anxiety and some not so nice thoughts.  With my dreams being as powerful as they are, I needed to stop meditating to bring my nights back to a normal.  I need some help beyond what I am capable of doing myself.

I have dealt with anxiety and depression before as a young teenager, and I thought I had dealt with it.  I pushed forward by never giving up, always having hope, and putting myself out there.  I was scared, but I joined track & field.  I was scared, but I did kick-boxing.  I was scared and I stuttered, but I joined a public speaking group and did presentations weekly.  I am scared as I write this, with the inner child out and exposed, but I will not lose my hope.

I learned meditation at a Goenka centre, and they believed in ignoring your problems and focusing on the breath and sensations.  This cult really fucked me up.  I believe I originally learned meditation the wrong way, and it internalized the practices in very unhealthy ways.  This occurred partly because of my naivety, partly because I did not trust my instincts, and partly from improper guidance. 

The changes cost me certain family relationships, which now I see I was in the wrong.  I need a break from so much spirituality.  I need to reboot.  I need more balance in my life.  As beautiful as much of my experiences have been, I have been using them to ignore how miserable I am in my life, this one and only life I have.  Everyday is now day-by-day, a burning hell I am wishing would end.  On the bright side, I am so grateful that my respect for my family is increasing, particularly my sister.  As I suffer, I can only feel compassion for the plight of others, not even worrying about myself. 

This does not mean I am leaving this forum, and in the future I am sure I will do sitting meditation again, but on my own terms, not rules that someone else wants to impose on me.  I just need time to allow myself to feel good again, and to accept that this is okay. 

[Zack]

Taking a couple steps back to regain your balance sounds like a good idea. Hope things go well for you, and don't be a stranger!

[Jhanananda]

I wanted to write to let everyone know that I am giving up my meditation practice, at least for a year.  For the past two years I have meditated, with great intensity in the past year.  Lately, I have been suffering from major anxiety and some not so nice thoughts.  With my dreams being as powerful as they are, I needed to stop meditating to bring my nights back to a normal.  I need some help beyond what I am capable of doing myself.

I have dealt with anxiety and depression before as a young teenager, and I thought I had dealt with it.  I pushed forward by never giving up, always having hope, and putting myself out there.  I was scared, but I joined track & field.  I was scared, but I did kick-boxing.  I was scared and I stuttered, but I joined a public speaking group and did presentations weekly.  I am scared as I write this, with the inner child out and exposed, but I will not lose my hope.

This is good mindful self-awareness.  Seeing ourselves as we truly are takes great courage.  It also take great equanimity, so I hope you continue to develop it.

I learned meditation at a Goenka centre, and they believed in ignoring your problems and focusing on the breath and sensations.  This cult really fucked me up.  I believe I originally learned meditation the wrong way, and it internalized the practices in very unhealthy ways.  This occurred partly because of my naivety, partly because I did not trust my instincts, and partly from improper guidance. 

Yes, about 25 years ago I found out the guru whom I had been following for 15 years (Swami Amar Jyoti) had been hording gold and screwing the wives of his disciples.  He had given me a mantra, which I wanted to expunge from my psyche, so I took a one year break from meditation, then I took up the breath, which lead to the charisms, which I now attend to.

[jay.validus]

Yes, about 25 years ago I found out the guru whom I had been following for 15 years (Swami Amar Jyoti) had been hording gold and screwing the wives of his disciples.  He had given me a mantra, which I wanted to expunge from my psyche, so I took a one year break from meditation, then I took up the breath, which lead to the charisms, which I now attend to.

I want to get Goenka's voice out of my head, on what meditation is to him, and focus on my own flow.  It may not take a year, but I wanted to give myself enough time to give sigh and bring my focus back to the present.

Taking a couple steps back to regain your balance sounds like a good idea. Hope things go well for you, and don't be a stranger!

Thanks, Zach.  Yes, it is sometimes needed.

This is good mindful self-awareness.  Seeing ourselves as we truly are takes great courage.  It also take great equanimity, so I hope you continue to develop it.

I don't think my learning will ever stop, at least until I die.

[jay.validus]

I am leaving the GWV and here is why:

I want to say if you are have serious doubts about your meditation practice, stop now while you are in a good place.  I now have to deal with anxiety, panic attacks, and sucidal thoughts. Meditation as we are practicing can create depersonalization, a serious mental illness.   Although I have hope everything will be fine, and my optimistic nature will return soon enough, the present has been very difficult and serious.  I don't think meditation is a great as they make it out to be, because it is rife with religious ideas.  Our body has ways have healing itself naturally without any intense mental & religious intervention like meditation.  Don't embrace a foreign religion!

There are also many serious cases of meditation causing people psychosis, deepression, and deperalization, to varying degrees.  Not to mention the cases where people who complete retreats and committ suicide afterwards.  I read all this before but I choose to ignore it.  I was wrong.  I really was happy before, I was just too naive to accept it.   The worst of this is meditation teachers and religious figures in Buddhism will state any serious mental problem as something that just passes, and that it is a good thing, or that the practice is perfect.  Hello, this is DOGMA!  The thing is, there might be people who can do it, but most of us here are not monks.  Even then, keeping one's mind deep, which we especially do here, has many negative consequences.  I am living it right now with some repressed sexual feelings I was very natural with before.  This will take time for me to heal myself, to be the person I was before all of this meditation, Buddhism, and intense spirituality.

I understand many will disagree with me in this message. I want to share with the people here alternative perspectives, but you are free to do whatever you want because it is your life. I just want to help.

Take care all,
Joshua

[Cal]

I am leaving the GWV and here is why:

I want to say if you are have serious doubts about your meditation practice, stop now while you are in a good place.  I now have to deal with anxiety, panic attacks, and sucidal thoughts. Meditation as we are practicing can create depersonalization, a serious mental illness.   Although I have hope everything will be fine, and my optimistic nature will return soon enough, the present has been very difficult and serious.  I don't think meditation is a great as they make it out to be, because it is rife with religious ideas.  Our body has ways have healing itself naturally without any intense mental & religious intervention like meditation.  Don't embrace a foreign religion!

There are also many serious cases of meditation causing people psychosis, deepression, and deperalization, to varying degrees.  Not to mention the cases where people who complete retreats and committ suicide afterwards.  I read all this before but I choose to ignore it.  I was wrong.  I really was happy before, I was just too naive to accept it.   The worst of this is meditation teachers and religious figures in Buddhism will state any serious mental problem as something that just passes, and that it is a good thing, or that the practice is perfect.  Hello, this is DOGMA!  The thing is, there might be people who can do it, but most of us here are not monks.  Even then, keeping one's mind deep, which we especially do here, has many negative consequences.  I am living it right now with some repressed sexual feelings I was very natural with before.  This will take time for me to heal myself, to be the person I was before all of this meditation, Buddhism, and intense spirituality.

I understand many will disagree with me in this message. I want to share with the people here alternative perspectives, but you are free to do whatever you want because it is your life. I just want to help.

Take care all,
Joshua

Jay...I'm so sorry that it came to this point with you, in this way. Many times in my life have I felt as you do now. Many times has it led to the asking of the question "why". Like you, I sought solace from others, but in my case, there was none. I took a break from the overwhelming experience that is the religious as well. I am only going to agree with you here, as your perspective is your own, and is true in how you view it. But if theres ever a time that you need to confide in a friend, I'll be here for you.

Best of luck to you Joshua, stay strong and confident.

[Jhanananda]

Hello, Joshua.  I am very sorry that you have had such a difficult time with what deep meditation revealed for you.  The spiritual journey is through the mind, and often there are unresolved emotional problems that lurk beneath our awareness. 

When we practice deep meditation these unresolved emotional problems often resurface for us to do some housekeeping with.  This event is called the spiritual crisis.  It is particularly significant for those who learn to meditate deeply.  If you click the link you will go to that section of this forum, where we discuss our spiritual crises.  You may find it of use to you.