Runner's high

[Jhanananda]

Those who have learned the art of deep meditation tends to have some similar experiences to those who report experiencing the runner's high.  However, I suspect that there is far more at work in the experience of deep meditation, and the runner's high than endorphins, and lipid-soluble psychoactive amines.

New Brain Effects behind "Runner's High"

[Cal]

 Yiannis Kouros, who could be classified as a legend in the world of Ultrarunning, once explained what he was feeling when he was running.

    "...During the ultras I come to a point where my body is almost dead. My mind has to take leadership. When it is very hard there is a war going on between the body and the mind. If my body wins, I will have to give up; if my mind wins, I will continue. At that time I feel that I stay outside of my body. It is as if I see my body in front of me; my mind commands and my body follows. This is a very special feeling, which I like very much. . . It is a very beautiful feeling and the only time I experience my personality separate from my body, as two different things."


Hory Sheet Batman.

This has some profound implications. He is describing the 4th Jhana "...I feel that I stay outside of my body. It is as if I see my body in front of me...This is a very special feeling...I experience my personality separate from my body, as two different things."  An observer to a body one no longer feels or identifies with. It's been described here in this forum as a place "one could stay in forever".

Even in this short statement one could see the 4 Noble truths.

During the ultras I come to a point where my body is almost dead- He knows he will suffer, he knows why he will suffer

When it is very hard there is a war going on between the body and the mind. If my body wins, I will have to give up; if my mind wins, I will continue.-
Even the cessation of suffering is here. Im looking at this not in the form that he delivered it. The body is the identity and the mind is the inner-self. The individual would have to still the mind here, as it is the cognitive function of the body.

I experience my personality separate from my body, as two different things-
Could we then say, for this individual his path to liberation is running? As this sentence certainly describes liberation from suffering.

[Alexander]

I have a lot of uncertainty about this, personally. I feel the same way about the 1st jhana coming to people going to church and feeling moved. I remember you talked about that in one of the retreat videos with Michael. I remember I could never get those positive self-arising feelings to emerge in me. I was totally in the grip of negative emotions for years. When the joy finally came it was a stark experience. So, I think getting over the fetters and having a self-transformation may be necessities to experience jhana.

[bodhimind]

I too have experienced runner's high before. It starts off with a fresh burst of energy and suddenly the fatigue from the built-up lactic acid does not burden your mind anymore. They still ache after the run however.

I think it is related to the hormonal feedback system but not entirely... We get rewarded for feeling a certain way. We have dopamine receptors, and literally there is a reward system inside the brain for engaging in non-stressful mental activities. I however, always wonder how a sensation such as happiness can result from simply chemical bonding between molecules. Correlation does not equate causation. There might be some energetic counterpart on a non-physical level.

For example, using the crude example of a spirit possession (seen a few), one can suddenly develop huge strength and be able to throw heavy fully-grown men around. It takes about 3 to 4 people to pin down a person like that. I believe that when this happens, the safety mechanisms (opposing muscle groups) do not engage, and hence the body acts past its safety limits/habits. This is also what happens in some martial art strikes where the practitioner tries to relax as much as possible to reduce opposing movement from the opposite muscle group.

It is also not unheard of that some people suddenly have huge strength during emergencies. I think there was this case where an old woman lifted a whole tree off her child, or something like that.

So in the same way, it could be that the runner's high is something that is similar - It allows the runner to ignore the pain and resistance of the physical body itself. If this is so... then perhaps it might not be the healthiest thing to run like that as it can wear the body down.

It seems to me to be some kind of mental mastery over the physical body. Perhaps sati of the body when running?

All I remember when experiencing runner's high was that there was a wave of bliss that suddenly hit me and I suddenly stopped gasping for air. Just some thoughts...

[Jhanananda]

Yiannis Kouros, who could be classified as a legend in the world of Ultrarunning, once explained what he was feeling when he was running.

...During the ultras I come to a point where my body is almost dead. My mind has to take leadership. When it is very hard there is a war going on between the body and the mind. If my body wins, I will have to give up; if my mind wins, I will continue. At that time I feel that I stay outside of my body. It is as if I see my body in front of me; my mind commands and my body follows. This is a very special feeling, which I like very much. . . It is a very beautiful feeling and the only time I experience my personality separate from my body, as two different things.

Yes, I agree, Cal, the description above certainly reminds one of the 4th or even the 5th stages of deep meditation, because it sounds like an OOBE; however, it is hard for me to accept that one can have an OOBE while running.  So, with the bliss-level expression, "wining a war" between the body and the "mind," and feeling as if one is outside of the body, then we can certainly see the runner's high as a non-dual experience, which suggests from 2nd to 4th stage.  I have read other such accounts from runners which has caused me to believe that running at this level can certainly be a style of meditation practice, so we have to add another position (assana) to the recommended meditation postures (assanas).

As an anthropologist, and knowing that most pre-industrial cultures depended upon pedestrian, and even running, as the primary mode of transportation, then the runner's high has also caused me to believe that there are a number of behaviors in pre-industrial cultures that are likely to have led to a larger number per capita experience of charisms than in post-industrial cultures.

I have a lot of uncertainty about this, personally. I feel the same way about the 1st jhana coming to people going to church and feeling moved. I remember you talked about that in one of the retreat videos with Michael. I remember I could never get those positive self-arising feelings to emerge in me. I was totally in the grip of negative emotions for years. When the joy finally came it was a stark experience. So, I think getting over the fetters and having a self-transformation may be necessities to experience jhana.

Considering that the devout of most mainstream religions have found some inspiration in their belief systems, which have in many cases decreased their addictive behavior (fetters), then I am inclined to accept that devotional behavior of a significant proportion of the devout has led to the first stage of depth in meditation (1st jhana).

In fact we could also look at runners who consistently experience the runner's high, also very probably have reduced addictive behavior (fetters), or otherwise they would not have the discipline to hone their running skills to the level of attaining the runner's high.

I too have experienced runner's high before. It starts off with a fresh burst of energy and suddenly the fatigue from the built-up lactic acid does not burden your mind anymore. They still ache after the run however.

This case history report further supports my premise that the runner's high falls somewhere on the scale of the 8 stages of depth in meditation.

I think it is related to the hormonal feedback system but not entirely... We get rewarded for feeling a certain way. We have dopamine receptors, and literally there is a reward system inside the brain for engaging in non-stressful mental activities. I however, always wonder how a sensation such as happiness can result from simply chemical bonding between molecules. Correlation does not equate causation. There might be some energetic counterpart on a non-physical level.

I happen to agree, but the physical sciences are setup with a foundational premise that if it cannot be measured, then it does not exist; therefore, immaterial phenomena will never be accepted in the sciences, at least until they accept my research, or someone's research that parallels mine.

For example, using the crude example of a spirit possession (seen a few), one can suddenly develop huge strength and be able to throw heavy fully-grown men around. It takes about 3 to 4 people to pin down a person like that. I believe that when this happens, the safety mechanisms (opposing muscle groups) do not engage, and hence the body acts past its safety limits/habits. This is also what happens in some martial art strikes where the practitioner tries to relax as much as possible to reduce opposing movement from the opposite muscle group.

It is also not unheard of that some people suddenly have huge strength during emergencies. I think there was this case where an old woman lifted a whole tree off her child, or something like that.

So in the same way, it could be that the runner's high is something that is similar - It allows the runner to ignore the pain and resistance of the physical body itself. If this is so... then perhaps it might not be the healthiest thing to run like that as it can wear the body down.

It seems to me to be some kind of mental mastery over the physical body. Perhaps sati of the body when running?

All I remember when experiencing runner's high was that there was a wave of bliss that suddenly hit me and I suddenly stopped gasping for air. Just some thoughts...

These are good supporting points that respond to many reported case histories, and a well thought out analysis of what is going on for the person who engages in overcoming the limits of the body.

At one time I worked making orthotics in the podiatry profession in San Francisco, which in the late 70s, when I was doing that work, was a big running center, and most of the orthotics that I made then were for runners.  To make orthotics for runners, I would be given a plaster mold of the runner's foot, and their favorite running shoes.  Those running shoes were always drenched in blood, which told me that those runners were ruining their feet, and very probably other organ systems, with their running style, which was a kind of addiction to experiencing the runner's high.

[Cal]

I have a lot of uncertainty about this, personally. I feel the same way about the 1st jhana coming to people going to church and feeling moved. I remember you talked about that in one of the retreat videos with Michael. I remember I could never get those positive self-arising feelings to emerge in me. I was totally in the grip of negative emotions for years. When the joy finally came it was a stark experience. So, I think getting over the fetters and having a self-transformation may be necessities to experience jhana.

I think we have to look at little more at the history of the individual claiming 1st jhana like feelings when going to church or feeling moved. If the individual can at some point in their life describe something similar to what I believe is "Kundalini awakening", then I could certainly believe that that person can feel jhana like sensation in church or when feeling moved.

One of the things that I noticed, over the course of the last year, was that the charisms never left. As much as I ignored them, or the teachings, employed unwholesome mind sets, and what have you, is that if i returned to wholesome mindsets, however brief, the charisms would be present.  So I agree with you in that a "stark experience" must have been present in order for any individual to have ever felt charisms. However, if that person can describe to me an awakening, and be genuine, I could believe that person when they say they felt jhana like feelings. Even if it were 20 years after the awakening.

My wife, currently subscribes to a church, in the business of church. This place is fancy, 2 tier seating, a large stage, mansion sized building, well payed frauds, live band etc. I've mentioned in the past that if I am self aware in the moment, i can feel the feelings of others im near. I attended this church once and the feeling of greed and "whats in it for me" was overwhelming. 2000 people had to be present in this place. The likely-hood of anyone in that church experiencing religious phenomena is 0. Set and Setting are important. More likely than not if a person says they "felt good" when they went to church, it was some thought as to the community they had joined.

I too have experienced runner's high before. It starts off with a fresh burst of energy and suddenly the fatigue from the built-up lactic acid does not burden your mind anymore. They still ache after the run however.

I think it is related to the hormonal feedback system but not entirely... We get rewarded for feeling a certain way. We have dopamine receptors, and literally there is a reward system inside the brain for engaging in non-stressful mental activities. I however, always wonder how a sensation such as happiness can result from simply chemical bonding between molecules. Correlation does not equate causation. There might be some energetic counterpart on a non-physical level.

For example, using the crude example of a spirit possession (seen a few), one can suddenly develop huge strength and be able to throw heavy fully-grown men around. It takes about 3 to 4 people to pin down a person like that. I believe that when this happens, the safety mechanisms (opposing muscle groups) do not engage, and hence the body acts past its safety limits/habits. This is also what happens in some martial art strikes where the practitioner tries to relax as much as possible to reduce opposing movement from the opposite muscle group.

It is also not unheard of that some people suddenly have huge strength during emergencies. I think there was this case where an old woman lifted a whole tree off her child, or something like that.

So in the same way, it could be that the runner's high is something that is similar - It allows the runner to ignore the pain and resistance of the physical body itself. If this is so... then perhaps it might not be the healthiest thing to run like that as it can wear the body down.

It seems to me to be some kind of mental mastery over the physical body. Perhaps sati of the body when running?

All I remember when experiencing runner's high was that there was a wave of bliss that suddenly hit me and I suddenly stopped gasping for air. Just some thoughts...

I dont know if i could subscribe to the belief of spirit possession (From something outside of oneself). However, experiencing different types of mental states, such as "blacking out", I could see how one could subscribe to the loss of control of the body. It's a surrender to a "pure emotion", all consuming, nothing else exists but that emotion. To me, it could explain the abnormalities in strength, or in a fighters or runners case, endurance.

This topic has been a real eye opener for me. This could not be limited to just runners. It could be anything that leads to the surrender of the physical body. A runner running until his body is near death. A fighter "showing his heart" and never giving up, bringing his body to near death. If we take both of these examples to the absolute extreme we see a surrender of the physical body. There could be nothing else that pushes them. I dont believe a runner in this state is cognitive that he is running or a fighter that he is fighting. "He just is". Much like I am when i experience deep meditation states. Disciplined to Surrender.

[Alexander]

That's a good way to look at it, Cal, and I think that is what I'm looking for. If a person has navigated that "awakening," then the jhana attainments will come, whether meditating, running, or sitting in a church. But, the person has to have woken up, and followed a lifestyle that's favorable to the spirit.

[bodhimind]

At one time I worked making orthotics in the podiatry profession in San Francisco, which in the late 70s, when I was doing that work, was a big running center, and most of the orthotics that I made then were for runners.  To make orthotics for runners, I would be given a plaster mold of the runner's foot, and their favorite running shoes.  Those running shoes were always drenched in blood, which told me that those runners were ruining their feet, and very probably other organ systems, with their running style, which was a kind of addiction to experiencing the runner's high.

Since pain is a signal that the body is experiencing some kind of problem, perhaps the continuous movement away from the physical body lets the athlete go past that warning signal. Is this a good thing to do for "active" meditation like this, however? It would seem far more sensible to go into these states of absorption when not pushing the body to the limits. They might be pushing themselves into death. I also reference Robert Bruce's case study in his astral projection book about how poor health can cause faster separations from the body - It would make sense, since in death, the soul separates from the body anyway.

I dont know if i could subscribe to the belief of spirit possession (From something outside of oneself). However, experiencing different types of mental states, such as "blacking out", I could see how one could subscribe to the loss of control of the body. It's a surrender to a "pure emotion", all consuming, nothing else exists but that emotion. To me, it could explain the abnormalities in strength, or in a fighters or runners case, endurance.

This topic has been a real eye opener for me. This could not be limited to just runners. It could be anything that leads to the surrender of the physical body. A runner running until his body is near death. A fighter "showing his heart" and never giving up, bringing his body to near death. If we take both of these examples to the absolute extreme we see a surrender of the physical body. There could be nothing else that pushes them. I dont believe a runner in this state is cognitive that he is running or a fighter that he is fighting. "He just is". Much like I am when i experience deep meditation states. Disciplined to Surrender.

I did not really believe in it until I saw it. There are also multiple news reports/videos/sightings of people who have been possessed. These are normally during rituals such as in Thailand, near places by which people have wrongly died (in hospitals housing war victims), or perhaps even places with a lot of practices of black magic, etc.

It is strange, because the person starts to act completely out of the norm - Like the personality had a switch and it was flipped. She starts attacking people. It wasn't simply a dissociative personality disorder, since the person has never had a history of this, nor after this incident. She suddenly had huge strength and could throw heavy things around despite not having the expected muscle mass to do so. It took about 4 grown-men to pile on top of her (with much difficulty) and restrain her limbs. Then either exorcism is done or it just goes away. I do not know if there is another explanation for this, perhaps the brain had some kind of malfunction, triggering the aggressive behaviour.

Perhaps that is also the function of hatha yoga (training the mind to be mindful of the body). Or perhaps tai chi. Or something that connects a person's awareness to the state of their body, as shown by the Kayagatasati sutta. Come to think of it, all of these exercises require a certain form of disciplining the breath and becoming aware of it. I remember that when I first ran, I regulated my breath, inhaling in two steps, exhaling in two steps. After which I was increasingly aware of the state of my body. That's when I realized I had a "second wind". (I just realized that runner's high occurs after the run, while what we might be referring to is "second wind" instead.)

[Cal]

I dont know if i could subscribe to the belief of spirit possession (From something outside of oneself). However, experiencing different types of mental states, such as "blacking out", I could see how one could subscribe to the loss of control of the body. It's a surrender to a "pure emotion", all consuming, nothing else exists but that emotion. To me, it could explain the abnormalities in strength, or in a fighters or runners case, endurance.

This topic has been a real eye opener for me. This could not be limited to just runners. It could be anything that leads to the surrender of the physical body. A runner running until his body is near death. A fighter "showing his heart" and never giving up, bringing his body to near death. If we take both of these examples to the absolute extreme we see a surrender of the physical body. There could be nothing else that pushes them. I dont believe a runner in this state is cognitive that he is running or a fighter that he is fighting. "He just is". Much like I am when i experience deep meditation states. Disciplined to Surrender.

I did not really believe in it until I saw it. There are also multiple news reports/videos/sightings of people who have been possessed. These are normally during rituals such as in Thailand, near places by which people have wrongly died (in hospitals housing war victims), or perhaps even places with a lot of practices of black magic, etc.

It is strange, because the person starts to act completely out of the norm - Like the personality had a switch and it was flipped. She starts attacking people. It wasn't simply a dissociative personality disorder, since the person has never had a history of this, nor after this incident. She suddenly had huge strength and could throw heavy things around despite not having the expected muscle mass to do so. It took about 4 grown-men to pile on top of her (with much difficulty) and restrain her limbs. Then either exorcism is done or it just goes away. I do not know if there is another explanation for this, perhaps the brain had some kind of malfunction, triggering the aggressive behaviour.

Perhaps that is also the function of hatha yoga (training the mind to be mindful of the body). Or perhaps tai chi. Or something that connects a person's awareness to the state of their body, as shown by the Kayagatasati sutta. Come to think of it, all of these exercises require a certain form of disciplining the breath and becoming aware of it. I remember that when I first ran, I regulated my breath, inhaling in two steps, exhaling in two steps. After which I was increasingly aware of the state of my body. That's when I realized I had a "second wind". (I just realized that runner's high occurs after the run, while what we might be referring to is "second wind" instead.)

[The Blessed One said:] "And how is mindfulness of the body developed, how is it pursued, so as to be of great fruit and great benefit?

"There is the case where a monk -- having gone to the wilderness, to the shade of a tree, or to an empty building -- sits down folding his legs crosswise, holding his body erect and setting mindfulness to the fore. Always mindful, he breathes in; mindful he breathes out.

"Breathing in long, he discerns that he is breathing in long; or breathing out long, he discerns that he is breathing out long. Or breathing in short, he discerns that he is breathing in short; or breathing out short, he discerns that he is breathing out short. He trains himself to breathe in sensitive to the entire body and to breathe out sensitive to the entire body. He trains himself to breathe in calming the structures of the body and to breathe out calming the structures of the body. And as he remains thus heedful, ardent, and resolute, any memories and resolutions related to the household life are abandoned, and with their abandoning his mind gathers and settles inwardly, grows unified and centered. This is how a monk develops mindfulness of the body.

We have to look past the words that are written and in between the lines, discern what is meant. What were looking at here is one relaxing, being self-aware, and moving ones awareness through the body in search of the charisms. I speculate that the breath is used as an object until one can rest awareness with the charisms? This is not a method I use. However, I could see this in beginning stages, as later the charisms can be readily identified the more familiar the practitioner becomes with them, both in meditative states and seemingly non-meditative states. Furthermore the paragraph highlights both the first and the second Jhana. Thank you for your link, though. It's quite fantastic to read the entire sutta. The way the Buddha describes the ability to enter these states, unburdened and at will, is something I  cant do. Interesting that this entire sutta describes the culmination to a fully enlightened being, and how one could be recognized.

So when you talk about possession do you mean this in the ritualistic sense, such as a sakyant trance?

[Sam Lim]

Very nicely put, Cal.

The charism or perhaps the alternate states of being is beyond one's control when one is in surrender. That's my experience. Mostly I am 24/7 in an altered state. I think that perhaps one have reached a stage whereby this is possible.

[Jhanananda]

That's a good way to look at it, Cal, and I think that is what I'm looking for. If a person has navigated that "awakening," then the jhana attainments will come, whether meditating, running, or sitting in a church. But, the person has to have woken up, and followed a lifestyle that's favorable to the spirit.

I agree.

Since pain is a signal that the body is experiencing some kind of problem, perhaps the continuous movement away from the physical body lets the athlete go past that warning signal. Is this a good thing to do for "active" meditation like this, however? It would seem far more sensible to go into these states of absorption when not pushing the body to the limits. They might be pushing themselves into death.

The case histories here show that meditating through the pain, as some misguided meditation teachers suggest, does not lead to a fruitful contemplative life.  The case histories also show that most people who get to the deeper states of depth in meditation do so through breath meditation, and not through body scanning.  However, I will agree that a level of awareness of the body, and the ability to relax the body, are also key skills that are consistently demonstrated by those who find depth in meditation.  Whereas, most people who practice meditation never seem to get anything out of the practice.

I also reference Robert Bruce's case study in his astral projection book about how poor health can cause faster separations from the body - It would make sense, since in death, the soul separates from the body anyway.

While, yes, our case histories do show that various triggers can produce glimpses of altered states of consciousness that are parallel to the levels of depth in meditation.  Those recognized triggers are: severe illnesses, such a influenzas; injuries, and other medical crises; and enduring physical abuses, can induce altered states of consciousness including an OOBE; and we find the NDE is the same as an OOBE, which arises due to a medical emergency; and these altered states of consciousness can also be induced with psycho-active drugs: nonetheless, those who experience these phenomena due to physical duress, or psycho-active drugs, generally do not develop facility with the deeper states, unless the glimpse that they experienced inspires them to take up a contemplative life.

We have to look past the words that are written and in between the lines, discern what is meant. What were looking at here is one relaxing, being self-aware, and moving ones awareness through the body in search of the charisms. I speculate that the breath is used as an object until one can rest awareness with the charisms? This is not a method I use. However, I could see this in beginning stages, as later the charisms can be readily identified the more familiar the practitioner becomes with them, both in meditative states and seemingly non-meditative states. Furthermore the paragraph highlights both the first and the second Jhana. Thank you for your link, though. It's quite fantastic to read the entire sutta. The way the Buddha describes the ability to enter these states, unburdened and at will, is something I  cant do. Interesting that this entire sutta describes the culmination to a fully enlightened being, and how one could be recognized.

I agree here, and our case histories here support this observation.