Author Topic: Corresponding Jhanas to stages of awakening  (Read 6696 times)

Benj

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Corresponding Jhanas to stages of awakening
« on: September 02, 2017, 06:08:35 PM »
Hi all, perhaps quick one here.

I've noticed on the fourm a couple and times and in J's essays I think (correct me if I am wrong) a general thinking that one's mastery of each jhana may correspond to the attainment of each stage of awakening. Thus, mastery of....

First Jhana = Stream winner
second Jhana = Once returner
Third Jhana = Non returner
Fourth Jhana = Arahant

Is there a sutta reference that this is based on which someone could share? As I would very much like to read it. If not, how is it that one can come to this conclusion?

Thanks

bodhimind

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Re: Corresponding Jhanas to stages of awakening
« Reply #1 on: September 03, 2017, 04:47:50 PM »
I do not think that is right, please correct me if i'm wrong. However, it should first - second - third - fourth - then the four stages of enlightenment until Arahantship.

Jhanek

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Re: Corresponding Jhanas to stages of awakening
« Reply #2 on: September 03, 2017, 04:58:51 PM »
Quote
First Jhana = Stream winner
second Jhana = Once returner
Third Jhana = Non returner
Fourth Jhana = Arahant

This does not make much sense to me. Buddha knew all jhanas before having gained the knowledge about the stream. The other question is - has he mastered them before? The ability of meditating deaper may or may not go along with mastering jhanas. This is individual case. More or less stream is like 3rd jhana, so every person on the path experience at least first three jhanas, but access concentration itself is a lot more.

In my opinion 3rd jhana is the hardest to be mastered, but still I think that one need Arahantship to master the jhanas and enter at will.

Benj

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Re: Corresponding Jhanas to stages of awakening
« Reply #3 on: September 03, 2017, 06:02:46 PM »
Thanks a lot, this makes a lot more sense to me. Perhaps I misinterpreted what others were saying.

DDawson

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Re: Corresponding Jhanas to stages of awakening
« Reply #4 on: September 03, 2017, 06:48:57 PM »
I must confess, I'm impressed by the scholarship but I wonder if speculating will lead nowhere.  Our awakening has a life of its own.  Put yourselves in the right place and make real effort, but allow yourselves the freedom of not knowing.  Set free, our minds become more powerful.  Questioning but open.  Samadhi and Vipassana work together.  What is taste?  What is seeing?  What is feeling?  How do I know I'm here?  What is here?  With the help of spiritual rapture our focus becomes clearer until we realize that our reality is mind created.  This is not an easy thing to do and I'm not sure if speculating on the Jhana's will help.  Don't get me wrong,  I'm impressed with all of you and perhaps, because I don't like to speculate on these things. don't have much to contribute.  I'm still learning but in no big hurry.  Let it surprise you.

Jhanananda

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Re: Corresponding Jhanas to stages of awakening
« Reply #5 on: September 06, 2017, 04:58:24 PM »
Hi all, perhaps quick one here.

I've noticed on the fourm a couple and times and in J's essays I think (correct me if I am wrong) a general thinking that one's mastery of each jhana may correspond to the attainment of each stage of awakening. Thus, mastery of....

First Jhana = Stream winner
second Jhana = Once returner
Third Jhana = Non returner
Fourth Jhana = Arahant

Is there a sutta reference that this is based on which someone could share? As I would very much like to read it. If not, how is it that one can come to this conclusion?

Thanks

Correct.  It is known as ati-vimokha, which means the 8 stages of liberation.  I have a link to a sutta on it somewhere.  I will post the link when I find it.

Quote
First Jhana = Stream winner
second Jhana = Once returner
Third Jhana = Non returner
Fourth Jhana = Arahant

This does not make much sense to me. Buddha knew all jhanas before having gained the knowledge about the stream. The other question is - has he mastered them before? The ability of meditating deaper may or may not go along with mastering jhanas. This is individual case. More or less stream is like 3rd jhana, so every person on the path experience at least first three jhanas, but access concentration itself is a lot more.

In my opinion 3rd jhana is the hardest to be mastered, but still I think that one need Arahantship to master the jhanas and enter at will.

This is actually proof of the corruption of the Buddha Sangha, because if they understood jhana, and had access to it, then they would know that jhana is the very source of liberation.  This is the premise here.
« Last Edit: September 06, 2017, 05:00:20 PM by Jhanananda »
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Benj

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Re: Corresponding Jhanas to stages of awakening
« Reply #6 on: September 06, 2017, 06:38:46 PM »
"Correct.  It is known as ati-vimokha, which means the 8 stages of liberation.  I have a link to a sutta on it somewhere.  I will post the link when I find it."

I've had quick look and ati-vimokkha seems to translate as something like 'superior release (from existence)'. I would very much like to read that sutta J. I'll do some digging myself.

Jhanananda

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Re: Corresponding Jhanas to stages of awakening
« Reply #7 on: September 07, 2017, 04:15:00 PM »
I've had quick look and ati-vimokkha seems to translate as something like 'superior release (from existence)'. I would very much like to read that sutta J. I'll do some digging myself.

Actually, the "ati" in this case refers to the number 8.  If my computer were running I would be able to look up the sutta references.
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Jhanek

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Re: Corresponding Jhanas to stages of awakening
« Reply #8 on: September 19, 2017, 09:39:36 AM »
Quote
First Jhana = Stream winner
second Jhana = Once returner
Third Jhana = Non returner
Fourth Jhana = Arahant

I explain it in other words. The purer the present mind the easier higher jhana state can be experienced. It may happened one reaches jhana just during meditation, although one is not experienced in deep meditation.
One may not even realise what happened.

However - Stream Entry accompanied by a sudden strongly established 3rd jhana is a shock - it is a life changing experience. This is the moment of 100% clarity of the Buddha teaching - mind is forever changed, unable to slip back significantly. The result is permament, never vanishing feeling of the spark of jhana state inside the mind as the factor of the purity. After reaching this state one closing his eyes always feels jhana and is the matter of time to switch into being fluent and well established at will.

This is rational, this is true understanding of the mechanism behind the mind. Stream Entry and jhana state are the result of the rational understanding with 100% surity about the path.

Yet, if one wants to intelectualise, it is true that achieving state of Arahant, constantly pure mind, one become master of all jhanas as soon as last Sankara of restlessness disappears. If any sankara remains, there is no state of Arahant and no jhana perfection, as sankaras are affecting and able to interfere with the emission of the mind.
It is like putting a very tiny stick near a candle. The light is almost everywhere, but one may notice tiny shadow behind the stick.

Was the Buddha master of jhana before the Awakening or just after Enlightenment?

Benj

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Re: Corresponding Jhanas to stages of awakening
« Reply #9 on: September 19, 2017, 12:22:42 PM »
Thank you Jhanek. Very helpful.

I would like to talk about an experience I had which matches what you have described here. And if I may, change the discussion to the possibility of my own stream entry, as I had not previously considered myself attained to this degree.

On the way home from work some months ago I was sitting on the train ruminating so much about my career that I was in great stress. At this point in my life I was in the midst of good jhana practice. I remember seeing the suffering and all the craving and tension in my self, so I said to myself 'fuck it, I give up' 'I give up trying to be anything' 'I simply give up'. I did indeed give up in that moment a great attachment to my future and suddenly something came over me. My gaze fixed into a position in front of me, thoughts dropped away, and my body, mind and brain all just let go and relaxed to a very deep level. I felt a surge of ecstasy rise up through me. At the time I remember thinking that I had evoked the first jhana somehow. Stepping off the train, I walked home in a state of bliss, everything I looked at was sharp like an ultra HD TV and my only concern was to just close my eyes and be with my experience. I could have sat in the middle of street and closed my eyes and been absolutely fine. The bliss lasted for the remainder of the day and since then I have certainly not been plagued by the level of rumination or stress that preceded it. Additionally, I can close my eyes anywhere and feel jhana, I can bring about good first jhana in about 5-10 minutes anywhere, maybe quicker, just because the feeling of joy is always at my fingertips if I simply relax my body. This is also true of the tranquillity of second jhana, but this takes a little more work. Looking back I don't think I realised what happened. Before this experience I have had two or three other acute mystical experiences very similar to this, but this was certainly a more refined, powerful and definitive moment. Without being to grandiose I felt like I was glowing gold and the world I was looking at reflected this back to me. Since then my ego has reduce considerably, but it still causes me trouble from time to time. The samadhi experienced has lingered since, as if it is always there in the silence, and tuning into it fro a few seconds brings great release and satisfaction.

Jhanananda

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Re: Corresponding Jhanas to stages of awakening
« Reply #10 on: September 19, 2017, 04:31:20 PM »
Benj, that sounds like first jhana and stream entry to me.
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Benj

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Re: Corresponding Jhanas to stages of awakening
« Reply #11 on: September 19, 2017, 09:00:50 PM »
Thank you J, that's quite comforting.