Author Topic: The social consequences of socialism and psychiatry  (Read 2235 times)

Michel

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The social consequences of socialism and psychiatry
« on: June 26, 2021, 07:19:12 PM »
Two extremely important and interesting subjects -

1. Richard D. Wolff YouTube Lecture on Worker Coops: Theory and Practice of 21st Century Socialism:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a1WUKahMm1s

2. Struggling Against Psychiatry’s Human Rights Violations –An Antipsychiatry Perspective by Don Weitz:

http://psychrights.org/Countries/Canada/StrugglingAgainstPsychiatrysHumanRightsViolationsWeitz2008.pdf


« Last Edit: June 27, 2021, 12:50:22 PM by Jhanananda »

Alexander

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Re: The social consequences of socialism and psychiatry
« Reply #1 on: June 26, 2021, 07:54:45 PM »
Two very local postings for me Michel... :D Although we are venturing into politics and psychology here...

1. Global wealth inequality is certainly a challenge of our time... I have friends in Denmark and Sweden who live in much more equal societies, and we compare frequently. To me, it's clear we could have a more equal system while maintaining capitalism... but it will be what the voters vote for.  ;)

My father's family did live under the Soviet system (in the 80s, they didn't have milk or bread...), so there's a balance to be maintained of course... but I still think a combination of the profit motive and some reasonable redistribution are the highest goods. I wrote in Sanders the last three times myself, but the other voters did not agree with me.  :)

2. You would have the most direct experience with psychiatry, Michel... it was certainly a dubious science in its infancy, lobotomizing Rosemary Kennedy, and the like... although I feel it's gotten much better at helping people these days no? Cognitive-behavioral therapy and their skill at prescribing medicine both seem genuinely good in the last 10-15 years.
« Last Edit: June 27, 2021, 01:09:09 PM by Jhanananda »
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Michel

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Re: The social consequences of socialism and psychiatry
« Reply #2 on: June 27, 2021, 04:04:58 AM »
1. Absolute nonsense, Alexander. You disappoint me. Did you watch Wolff's lecture from beginning to end. Sanders is not a democratic socialist - he's a new deal democrat and a complete fraud.
Democratic socialism is where the workers own the means of production and have real power over their lives - not the tyranny and exploitation the employer inflicts on their employees. Read up on Karl Marx. And above all, read up on what the Buddha said about systems of government. It's in the suttas and I'm too tired and lazy to provide you with a link.

2. On psychiatry you've fallen for the bullshit propaganda of the pharmaceutical/psychiatric industrial complex.

3. This article is about psychiatry and neoliberalism. The date of publication for this article is today. It was written for you. The celestial beings are pissed off at you for being a complete ignoramus. I just happen to be the messenger:

Sedated: How Modern Capitalism Created our Mental Health Crisis: https://www.madinamerica.com/2021/06/interview-james-davies/
« Last Edit: June 27, 2021, 12:51:50 PM by Jhanananda »

Jhanananda

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Re: The social consequences of socialism and psychiatry
« Reply #3 on: June 27, 2021, 01:07:43 PM »
Thank you Michel for posting some very interesting videos on the social consequences of socialism and psychiatry.  Please note I changed the name of the thread you started to reflect what seemed to me to be the central idea behind your two very interesting links.

Thank you, Alexander, for posting your thoughtful responses.  Burney Sanders has been my first choice all along, but sadly the voting public does not agree.

Thank you Michel for posting your comments regarding socialism.  I happen to reject Marxian socialism because there are natural incentives in a free-market economy that do not exist in pure socialism, as Alexander pointed out. However, I am a full supporter of Sander's et al democratic socialism, or what you called an (FDR) New Deal Democrat. I often point out to those who are strongly repugnant of socialism that FDR brought socialism to the USA.

I do agree with you that there are still serious problems with Psychiatry's dependence upon medicating people, as you have posted a number of messages here on the serious consequences to the patient of long-term psychiatric medication.  However, I will agree with Alexander there has been dramatic improvements over past psychiatric practice of lobotomizing patients against their will.
« Last Edit: June 28, 2021, 10:49:42 AM by Jhanananda »
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Alexander

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Re: Two extremely important and interesting subjects
« Reply #4 on: June 27, 2021, 01:20:09 PM »
Ah so you are quite the radical Michel, which you are entitled to be.  :D Life would be no fun if it were not for such debates. We are venturing out of mysticism into the domain of politics, of course, but I am fine with sharing my opinions.

Re: Bernie, as I said he's an advocate for a new kind of human-focused capitalism, and I voted for him thrice. He was the most viable choice of the three, the #2 in the Democratic primary. The other choices were Trump (nationalist capitalism?), Clinton (neoliberalism), and Biden (neoliberalism). Neoliberalism has of course created our great globalized world... but has also been quite detrimental to the livelihoods of many Americans which we are seeing the effects of.

Wolff can advocate for a more radical path than Sanders, of course... but the question is if even Sanders' moderate brand failed at the poll, how is this going to come into effect? So I look at things from this view, how it would be implemented in practical terms: "politics is the art of the possible."

I have listened to hundreds of hours of Wolff and Chomsky and do admire them both very much, but I do see them as idealists, there to criticize the current order for us, and envision a better world, but in the end best as commenters.

For my part, I am always asking myself... "quid est veritas?" (like Pilate) and "quid est iustitia?" (like Socrates in the Republic) - "what is truth?" and "what is justice?" I try to keep these questions in mind as I navigate the complexities and dysfunctions of our civilization... And, by criticizing and revealing, I believe it is possible to cure the dysfunctions... certainly starting, at least, on an individual basis.

One issue I have found is that we often create new injustices in the process of trying to solve current ones... For example, I think of the Mexican Revolution, which tore down all the corrupt institutions of the country in the early 20th century. And... replaced them... with equally corrupt and dysfunctional institutions.  ;D It is the great cycle of human experience.

I suppose it's why wisdom is the most elusive virtue... to be able to see how layered and interconnected the world is, and with that in mind advocate for change that does tangibly and positively affect others (while avoiding creating new issues).

I do like this idea of psychiatry 'individualizing' problems that are created by a sick civilization. Ie, it's putting the blame on the person for the ailment (eg, anxiety) and not on the society itself. I find this a very good argument. As I certainly agree our civilization (especially the US, with its healthcare system and lack of time off) breeds anxiety disorders, alcoholism, lack of purpose, and so forth.
« Last Edit: June 27, 2021, 01:24:50 PM by Alexander »
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Michel

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Re: The social consequences of socialism and psychiatry
« Reply #5 on: June 27, 2021, 08:39:53 PM »
Both of you are nuts! I'm out of here for good.

Alexander

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Re: The social consequences of socialism and psychiatry
« Reply #6 on: June 27, 2021, 09:53:28 PM »
Both of you are nuts! I'm out of here for good.

We will be here for you, Michel, when you are ready to return.  :)
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Jhanananda

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Re: The social consequences of socialism and psychiatry
« Reply #7 on: June 28, 2021, 10:55:16 AM »
Both of you are nuts! I'm out of here for good.
Michel, I am sorry to see you go, because you have been missed and you will be missed.
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