Fear of deep meditation states

[Jhanananda]

I agree, Rougeleader. I wonder what you mean by "The advanced crises of course still feel like a near impossible barrier for me, but at least there are words from those who have made it.?"

For me, I immediately think about how many times in samadhi I've felt I was being ripped away or annihilated, but I cowered in fear, despite the fact I wanted nothing more.

This is pretty much the indicator for me that I am not prepared for the deeper side of annihilation. I have had one opportunity with an annihilating light and spent weeks in 2013 running from overwhelming bliss, so I lost the confidence I had to be wiped away. But I still cannot run from the contemplative life altogether because of the constant reminder of the hellish cycle we are in keep pulling me back to work on my fears. That and I have only ever felt fulfillment and peace like "home" during one of these experiences. So when I look at it, I just see that there is a lot of letting go that I still need to traverse before I can handle the kinds of things I have seen described here by Jhanananda and others.

The sweating may be an anxiety response. When I first began accessing a jhana, I believe it was my "fight or flight" or anxiety response would kick in, and I would begin to perspire. To the best of my knowledge, this has happened in the first 5-10 experiences of each stage of samadhi. But eventually I got accustomed to that level of charismatic activity, and now I only have anxiety response for intense kundalini and 4th samadhi and above (which I still have less than 5-10 experiences with.)

This matches my experience. For a few months it felt like my "flight or flight" was on 24-7. It was something I said I would warn others about if they experienced the same and felt worried. I certainly still find myself getting warm in meditation, as if I were a heating pad on low, but it is not as intense as when I first started, and it is not every time. The fear I feel about "intense kundalini" is certainly something I cannot wait to get over.

Michel I am very very happy to see you have found blissful sensations in meditation. I hope things keep progressing well for you .

I'm glad my observation resonated with you, Rougeleader. It's good to know you're no the only one. Definitely remind anyone else who has similar experience. It could potentially scare them away from samadhi. And that would be a tragedy.

And yeah, I also can't wait to get over the fear of intense kundalini. I keep missing out because of it. The only times I've experienced it is when there was very little build up, as it just took over fast--therefor only lasting a short time. At least mild kundalini isn't a problem, though.

I copied this thread from Michel's case history, and other threads here, to use them to start this thread, because the topic of fight-or-flight response, and other anxieties related to the experience of deep meditation states and the religious experience are actually not uncommon, and are indeed part of the process.  We can put these under the category of the spiritual crisis.

Most mainstream religious caution people against the practice of meditation, and some of them even foolishly call the practice "devil worship."  It is common for priests in mainstream Theravadan Buddhism to caution people against these states, and claim that if you have one of these experience then you have to move into a Theravadan Buddhist monastery within 24 hours, or "your head will explode."

Mainstream religions thrive on fear tactics, and breeding ignorance, while marginalizing their mystics, so when we start having deep meditation states, then we find no factual information available to guide us through these profound states.  This is why I started the GWV's website on religious experiences and other fruit of the contemplative life, and this forum.

It is understandable that one will have anxiety about these states, but as one develops the equanimity of the 3rd stage of the religious experience (3rd jhana), then one becomes better equipped to handle these states, which become more fantastic the deeper we go.

[rougeleader115]

At least mild kundalini isn't a problem, though.

I'm still working through the mild sensations as well. I think I might be getting more used to it than before, but I found today I kept unintentionally tensing my jaw and neck when the charisms intensity randomly increased throughout the day. This happens from time to time (and more often lately), but it seems weird that my body would try to respond to the charisms by tensing up. I assume I should just keep relaxing?

Most mainstream religious caution people against the practice of meditation, and some of them even foolishly call the practice "devil worship."  It is common for priests in mainstream Theravadan Buddhism to caution people against these states, and claim that if you have one of these experience then you have to move into a Theravadan Buddhist monastery within 24 hours, or "your head will explode."

These are the kinds of explanations I constantly found when I was first starting to experience the charisms on a more regular basis. It only aided in my fear of having gone insane.

Mainstream religions thrive on fear tactics, and breeding ignorance, while marginalizing their mystics, so when we start having deep meditation states, then we find no factual information available to guide us through these profound states.  This is why I started the GWV's website on religious experiences and other fruit of the contemplative life, and this forum.

I am extremely grateful that you did. I feel like I would have never had any sort of positive context for these experiences if I had not come across you and your websites.

It is understandable that one will have anxiety about these states, but as one develops the equanimity of the 3rd stage of the religious experience (3rd jhana), then one becomes better equipped to handle these states, which become more fantastic the deeper we go.

Thank you for the support in continuing on.

[Jhanananda]

I'm still working through the mild sensations as well. I think I might be getting more used to it than before, but I found today I kept unintentionally tensing my jaw and neck when the charisms intensity randomly increased throughout the day. This happens from time to time (and more often lately), but it seems weird that my body would try to respond to the charisms by tensing up. I assume I should just keep relaxing?

I noticed in the early days of becoming charismatic that at first my attention was confusing the tactile charisms with tension.  So, it is a good mindfulness practice to be mindful of tension, and release it, throughout the day, and to keep bringing ones attention back to the charisms, but it is also possible to confuse one with the other.

Most mainstream religious caution people against the practice of meditation, and some of them even foolishly call the practice "devil worship."  It is common for priests in mainstream Theravadan Buddhism to caution people against these states, and claim that if you have one of these experiences then you have to move into a Theravadan Buddhist monastery within 24 hours, or "your head will explode."

These are the kinds of explanations I constantly found when I was first starting to experience the charisms on a more regular basis. It only aided in my fear of having gone insane.

Yes, early on in my charismatic career I too was afraid that I had gone insane.  Can you imagine how many contemplatives have mistakenly taken their charismatic experiences to a minister, priest, monk, rabbi, imam, bhikkhu, rinpoche, roche, psychologist, or psychiatrist to just be dismissed, or even worse, medicated, for having a genuine religious experience?

Mainstream religions thrive on fear tactics, and breeding ignorance, while marginalizing their mystics, so when we start having deep meditation states, then we find no factual information available to guide us through these profound states.  This is why I started the GWV's website on religious experiences and other fruit of the contemplative life, and this forum.

I am extremely grateful that you did. I feel like I would have never had any sort of positive context for these experiences if I had not come across you and your websites.

It is all too sad, and all too true that the only place anyone has ever gotten factual guidance through the religious experience was some marginalized mystic, who in many cases was martyred by the priesthood of the dominant religion.

It is understandable that one will have anxiety about these states, but as one develops the equanimity of the 3rd stage of the religious experience (3rd jhana), then one becomes better equipped to handle these states, which become more fantastic the deeper we go.

Thank you for the support in continuing on.

You are welcome.

[rougeleader115]

I noticed in the early days of becoming charismatic that at first my attention was confusing the tactile charisms with tension.  So, it is a good mindfulness practice to be mindful of tension, and release it, throughout the day, and to keep bringing ones attention back to the charisms, but it is also possible to confuse one with the other.

Well in that case, I want to be sure about what is a charism or a tension so I can attend to the right thing. Do you have any guidelines to help clarify the differences between the two?

[Jhanananda]

The difference between tension and the tactile charism is likely to be too subtle at first to distinguish, so I suggest that one just attend to releasing tension, which attending to whatever charisms arise, or just be patient until one can tell the difference.

[Jhanananda]

OK, rougeleader115, after some thought I decided that I will attempt to describe the tactile charism and how it is commonly misinterpreted as tension.

The characteristics of the tactile charism are: energy, power, strength, vibration, electricity, magnetism, alertness, etc.

The characteristics of tension are: tense muscles that will not relax, fatigue, restlessness, stiff aching muscles.

When we compare the 2 lists I believe one can see how: energy, power, strength, vibration, electricity, magnetism can be misinterpreted as: tense muscles; and alertness can be misinterpreted as restlessness.

The key to moving from tensions to the properties of the tactile charism is learning to meditate deeply, relax deeply, and avoid stress and tension.  Eventually one learns to recognize the tactile charism over tension.

[stugandolf]

Thanks to Jeff for making  such important information available.  Years ago when I taught myself meditation I worried that the incredible states experienced  would make me unable to return to "reality"...  GWV members need to meet Jeff at a retreat!  Stu

[rougeleader115]

The difference between tension and the tactile charism is likely to be too subtle at first to distinguish, so I suggest that one just attend to releasing tension, which attending to whatever charisms arise, or just be patient until one can tell the difference.

I will keep this in mind.

OK, rougeleader115, after some thought I decided that I will attempt to describe the tactile charism and how it is commonly misinterpreted as tension.

The characteristics of the tactile charism are: energy, power, strength, vibration, electricity, magnetism, alertness, etc.

The characteristics of tension are: tense muscles that will not relax, fatigue, restlessness, stiff aching muscles.

When we compare the 2 lists I believe one can see how: energy, power, strength, vibration, electricity, magnetism can be misinterpreted as: tense muscles; and alertness can be misinterpreted as restlessness.

The key to moving from tensions to the properties of the tactile charism is learning to meditate deeply, relax deeply, and avoid stress and tension.  Eventually one learns to recognize the tactile charism over tension.

Thank you for taking the time to explain the similarities and differences here, and for giving me guidance on  how to continue practice until I can tell the difference for certain.

Thanks to Jeff for making  such important information available.  Years ago when I taught myself meditation I worried that the incredible states experienced  would make me unable to return to "reality"...  GWV members need to meet Jeff at a retreat!  Stu

I agree, this is all very important information. I wish I could at least have one retreat with Jeffrey. I think it would be a great learning experience for me, but I doubt I will be able to make it work. At least not with my current circumstances. But I will still hope for the possibility.

[Jhanananda]

Thank-you Stu, and rougeleader115 for expressing your kind support for this work.