The Death of God

[Alexander]

One of the things Nietzsche said was, "God is dead."

I do not take this as a statement of irreligion, but as an explanation of the time we're living in.

In our time, we have religions that do not have any inner significance. We have human beings who have no conception of the sacred. What is most important to know about our time is that, if you are a reasonable thinking human being, it is rational for you to be irreligious. In other words, I am making no value judgment about people who live in the 21st century and believe in nothing: in fact, I am saying I agree with them.

But what all this means for those of us interested in the mystic life, is that if we are to engage with this world wholly and honestly, there is a long pre-journey that comes before the real one. On one level, we must become scholars of religion first, as secularists, and then proceed to go deeper and deeper on our way to an inward religion.

This trek involves many transformations. We must change our views and values again and again. And, in dealing with the complexities of the world, this may itself be what transforms us.

For example, let us say I agree with an atheist on one day, who says that religion has no place in the state. But, then I read St. John of the Cross. How do I reconcile these? I cannot make them easily compatible. A powerful emotional and intellectual refinement is needed to be able to hold these (generally speaking) contradictory views.

[Jhanananda]

You make a number of good points, aglorincz.  What comes to mind most is certainly the benevolent creator god who punishes the wicked and bestows material benefits upon the righteous is surely dead, but I doubt seriously if there ever was such a god.  The idea reeks of marketing hype.

[trjones]

I find it personally fascinating that this pronouncement of Nietzsche (and Hegel) was made it 1883, which corresponds almost exactly to the global population boom. If you look at any global population growth chart, this time period marks a huge upswing in human beings being born on earth. My mystical interpretation of dramatic population growth is that atheism, industrialization, materialism, and technophilia (all wrong views) have been partial conditions creating a figurative enclosure on beings taking rebirth in the heavenly realms. The wrong view of materialism and the craving that it fosters in human minds causes more beings to be reborn here.  The Buddha made it very clear that the views we hold in our minds generate kamma and cause rebirth in various realms (see the Brahmajala Sutta in the DN). The human fantasy that earth is the best and only place to be causes more beings to become here as life carries itself forward via craving through the five-cord sense pleasures; something "1st world" mentalities promulgate. In the Suttas certain devas would proclaim that the heavens swell with beings when a Buddha is around. Well, my theory is that the human realm is currently swelling because of our wrong views and cravings. This also is not entirely negative, for there are worse realms to take birth in below the human. But certainly the "death of God" in people's minds have caused more beings to cling to life here. I see this everyday as a hospice spiritual caregiver. Of course this is just a spiritual theory. I'm open to other thoughts and dialogue.

[Alexander]

I find it personally fascinating that this pronouncement of Nietzsche (and Hegel) was made it 1883, which corresponds almost exactly to the global population boom. If you look at any global population growth chart, this time period marks a huge upswing in human beings being born on earth. My mystical interpretation of dramatic population growth is that atheism, industrialization, materialism, and technophilia (all wrong views) have been partial conditions creating a figurative enclosure on beings taking rebirth in the heavenly realms. The wrong view of materialism and the craving that it fosters in human minds causes more beings to be reborn here.  The Buddha made it very clear that the views we hold in our minds generate kamma and cause rebirth in various realms (see the Brahmajala Sutta in the DN). The human fantasy that earth is the best and only place to be causes more beings to become here as life carries itself forward via craving through the five-cord sense pleasures; something "1st world" mentalities promulgate. In the Suttas certain devas would proclaim that the heavens swell with beings when a Buddha is around. Well, my theory is that the human realm is currently swelling because of our wrong views and cravings. This also is not entirely negative, for there are worse realms to take birth in below the human. But certainly the "death of God" in people's minds have caused more beings to cling to life here. I see this everyday as a hospice spiritual caregiver. Of course this is just a spiritual theory. I'm open to other thoughts and dialogue.

You bring up very interesting ideas. I honestly will wait a few more years before I begin speculating on these questions. I would be amazed to be in Jhananda's position, and have direct, certain knowledge about some of these matters.

What you say about materialism is quite plausible. If we go back even 200 years, just looking at Europe (never mind a few more centuries before that), the belief in the heavenly worlds would be far greater. Consequently, it would be much more likely to find people who lived lives with the intent of a heavenly rebirth.

Now - unlike in the past - a rational person of the present age would see the belief in heaven as superstition or nonsense. Thus, the difficulties of living the spiritual life have been amplified a hundred times over.

[Jhanananda]

Interesting points, trjones and aglorincz.  If I recall correctly it was said during the time of Siddhartha Gautama it was a materialistic age.  Perhaps not too unlike our age, yet the Buddha of that age took birth.  Perhaps the arising of materialism, and corruption are the conditions for the arising of a Buddha/messiah.

[stugandolf]

Nietzsche is one of the most understood philosophers of all time.  My view is that he was talking about the death of the idea of  God!  This is quite different  from the death of God.  Stu 

[stugandolf]

Correction :  my last post needs to be corrected Nietzche is one of the misunderstood philosophers - the Nazis used him to justify their ends.  A PHD friend of mine, in a dissertation on N  wrote there are at least 5 levels of  interpretation of his work -  thus for N the context is difficult.  Stu

[Jhanananda]

My view is that he was talking about the death of the idea of  God!  This is quite different  from the death of God.  Stu

This seems reasonable; however, I was not a Student of Nietzche.  His work seemed too depressing; whereas, Teresa of Avila, and the many other mystics were inspiring to study.

[Alexander]

Some quotes from Nietzsche:

God is dead: but as the human race is constituted, there will perhaps be caves for millenniums yet, in which people will show his shadow.—And we—we have still to overcome his shadow!

This quote explains false religion very well.

God is dead. God remains dead. And we have killed him. Yet his shadow still looms. How shall we comfort ourselves, the murderers of all murderers? What was holiest and mightiest of all that the world has yet owned has bled to death under our knives: who will wipe this blood off us? What water is there for us to clean ourselves? What festivals of atonement, what sacred games shall we have to invent? Is not the greatness of this deed too great for us? Must we ourselves not become gods simply to appear worthy of it?

I thought this was a powerful quote. In Christianity, the mystic's quest is understood as a path to divinization. If men can truly become gods then Nietzsche was a prophet indeed.

[stugandolf]

Be very careful with Nieztsche quotes because it is easy to take him out of context.  My take on the death of God is that it means the death of the idea of God.  A Nieztsche scholar I know maintains that there are at least 4 or 5 levels of understanding going on.  He told me every time he thought he had the highest level he found another level.  Currently N's  positive  influence out weighs the negative.  Stu 

[Alexander]

Hey Stu. I didn't reply to your first message but I thought you explained the perspective much better than I did in the OP. Yes, by death of God I mean death of the idea of God.

[Alexander]

The major European event that caused the decline of religion: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/30_years_war