Winston's Meditation Case Histories

[Jhanananda]

It is. I find that I reach deep states very, very quickly. Also, it's almost as if I skip first/second jhana and go straight to the dizzy spell. Is skipping normal? I'm a little used to feeling bliss and then having it subside to the no-pain/pleasure equanimity.

For those who are adept at deep meditation, there is certainly a possibility that one will drop right into whatever level that they are adept at.  Also, when we maintain living in the present, with a still mind, and carry the charisms with us, then we generally are functioning in the world at 2nd or 3rd jhana, so when we sit to meditate, then we are likely to start at that point an go deeper.

Thank you for clarifying this, I will incorporate it into my practice...

Haha. It's funny how I've never ridden a horse despite so many stables available around here. I'll take your advice and see if I can incorporate that understanding better...

I'll work on it and fill in my progress soon.

Do let us know if the riding lessons help you to meditate deeper.

[bodhimind]

Do let us know if the riding lessons help you to meditate deeper.

Scheduled a class! Will report soon.

[bodhimind]

I'm back to confirm a slight doubt... I remember watching a video on the bounciness of lower jhana in the GWV youtube channel and I suddenly remembered that Jhanananda once said that in order to move from first to second jhana, one must let go of the sustained/applied attention on the meditation object.

Would this be true for the charisms as well? Do I have to let go of the charisms or sustain them until I reach fourth and beyond? I notice that using the charisms, I get into a focused state very quickly to the point that the ringing becomes a bit like water through a badly-maintained tap. I'm not sure if it's second Jhana but I do feel bliss permeating my whole body throughout the day and my thoughts are often clear and not as erratic as the past.

I suddenly remember that I've had that experience of complete light filling me and swallowing my existence in the past, but it came from not really focusing on anything, but kind of like surrendering everything. Are the charisms meant to be watched until one generates the manomaya?

[Jhanon]

Are you sure you can't afford time for a one-on-one skype call with me? I feel like this could all be explained and you could learn far more rapidly with a few calls. That's been my experience so far. 

[Jhanon]

Are you sure you can't afford time for a one-on-one skype call with me? I feel like this could all be explained and you could learn far more rapidly with a few calls. That's been my experience so far.

It's really not uncomfortable or anything. I've been doing one-on-one coaching, mediating, and teaching since I was a kid. Besides, I only sleep about 4
-5 hours a day, and that huge availability won't be around much longer.

[Jhanananda]

I'm back to confirm a slight doubt... I remember watching a video on the bounciness of lower jhana in the GWV youtube channel and I suddenly remembered that Jhanananda once said that in order to move from first to second jhana, one must let go of the sustained/applied attention on the meditation object.

Would this be true for the charisms as well? Do I have to let go of the charisms or sustain them until I reach fourth and beyond?

No, the charims are intended for our focus to be upon 24-7.  If we do, then we will find reduced stress, and anxiety, and increased fulfillment.

I notice that using the charisms, I get into a focused state very quickly to the point that the ringing becomes a bit like water through a badly-maintained tap. I'm not sure if it's second Jhana but I do feel bliss permeating my whole body throughout the day and my thoughts are often clear and not as erratic as the past.

I suddenly remember that I've had that experience of complete light filling me and swallowing my existence in the past, but it came from not really focusing on anything, but kind of like surrendering everything. Are the charisms meant to be watched until one generates the manomaya?

As you saw in the Robert Monroe OOBE book, the OOBE is accomplished by staturation in all of he charisms.

[bodhimind]

Are you sure you can't afford time for a one-on-one skype call with me? I feel like this could all be explained and you could learn far more rapidly with a few calls. That's been my experience so far.

I understand, and I really do sincerely wish I could have a call. I'm overseas visiting my relatives out of Aus so I do have my hands tied, I meditate whenever I'm free for now. Do you think a call around... late Feb close to March would be too late? I don't wish to trouble you either and I really appreciate your concern. Your advice has been a real help to me along with Jhanananda and I can't imagine what a call would do haha.

No, the charims are intended for our focus to be upon 24-7.  If we do, then we will find reduced stress, and anxiety, and increased fulfillment.

As you saw in the Robert Monroe OOBE book, the OOBE is accomplished by staturation in all of he charisms.

As I went through the guided meditation on the Samadhi forum, I realized that I had always reached third jhana, where there is equanimity... past tranquillity and with a sort of energy. I'm not exactly sure where it turns into fourth jhana though, is there a clear way to tell? I remember you said in a video that it was as if one was in fifth samadhi, just with the physical sense of the body remaining, but without being aroused by sounds or stimuli outside the body at this stage.

[Jhanon]

Everyone is different in how they know what level they're in. That was the idea behind creating the thread where each person was to describe the salient qualities of samadhi levels in their own words. But, I haven't gotten a chance to start it.

If you want confidence in discerning something, you spend time discerning it as you would. For example; for me, the word "bliss" isn't accurate. To me, it's just some strong tactile tingling. A warm bath for you is a cold bath for me, for example. Cal, a friend/member described bliss as "aura." I described bliss as "warm tingling."

So, perhaps you would like to record your samadhi experiences as you would a normal experience, rather than trying to describe them like the Buddha would. I found reading the existing case histories of experiences to be useful in helping me discern qualities and levels.

[bodhimind]

Everyone is different in how they know what level they're in. That was the idea behind creating the thread where each person was to describe the salient qualities of samadhi levels in their own words. But, I haven't gotten a chance to start it.

If you want confidence in discerning something, you spend time discerning it as you would. For example; for me, the word "bliss" isn't accurate. To me, it's just some strong tactile tingling. A warm bath for you is a cold bath for me, for example. Cal, a friend/member described bliss as "aura." I described bliss as "warm tingling."

So, perhaps you would like to record your samadhi experiences as you would a normal experience, rather than trying to describe them like the Buddha would. I found reading the existing case histories of experiences to be useful in helping me discern qualities and levels.

That makes sense, I'll definitely try to make it more descriptive in future.

---

My latest entry:

I sat half-lotus (I find it more comfortable than Burmese), then used the auditory charism to sustain attention on it. Doing this, I went into a VERY itchy phase, then I remembered Jhanananda talked about it being a hypersensitive phase, so I retreated inwards, de-focusing myself on the itchiness.

I also realized that I can smell scents that are extremely far away, even many doors away. I realized it was my relative mopping the floor a few staircases up. I could also hear the television about five walls away. At this point, it was probably 2nd jhana, I think?

Then I tried to use the horse analogy. I believe it was that... giving and taking, like what it feels like to work with the horse? Where you would kind of ride on the waves, if it went up, it went up, if it went down, it went down, and all I am doing is maintaining this very soft watch on it. When I did that, the sound became very shrill and high pitched.

I could feel some kind of refreshing feeling (you know when you put lotion on your skin and it has that refreshing feeling?) creeping over my ear. I don't know why it was just the ear. Then there was a little at the back of my skull as well. I could also feel my tongue physically tingling, but I couldn't feel the rest of my body. The tingling would appear at different areas of my body but not a complete full tingle of the whole body.

I remember bouncing back down to the point where I would sustain attention on it again, and then I'll go back into second jhana with a lot of tranquil tingling. Then I'll go back up to third where the physical tingling starts to retreat to give way to the mental tingling.

At this point of time it was as if I had no thoughts at all, and only the tingling sound remained. My mind would be quite bright and at this point I wasn't aware enough to see exactly what caused the light but I knew that I could see a lot of light. Maybe I need to remain longer in meditation for this stage. It was as if there wasn't an observer watching it, but it was "just the tingle" itself. I also felt like I wouldn't mind to remain in that state for as long as I can. Would this be fourth jhana?

I can't seem to get to the point of saturation of the charisms though. Maybe I'll need to stay in meditation much longer. It's always a problem when my relatives open my door despite telling them that I'm meditating. I guess I'll wait until I'm back.

I had a lot of bright-light experiences when I was back in my apartment, as well as a point where I reached full body tingling as well.

[Jhanananda]

Everyone is different in how they know what level they're in. That was the idea behind creating the thread where each person was to describe the salient qualities of samadhi levels in their own words. But, I haven't gotten a chance to start it.

That is one of the primary purposes of this case histories section.

If you want confidence in discerning something, you spend time discerning it as you would. For example; for me, the word "bliss" isn't accurate. To me, it's just some strong tactile tingling. A warm bath for you is a cold bath for me, for example. Cal, a friend/member described bliss as "aura." I described bliss as "warm tingling."

The problem with describing one's experience of deep meditation is the language that has been used to describe it changes over thousands of years.  So, the terms 'bliss', 'joy', and 'ecstasy' have no meaning these days.  So, what are we going to do?  Invent a new language like Tolle?  I think it is a bad move, unless you are just marketing yourself.

Good work, bodhimind.  It looks like you had a good 3rd stage samadhi, and possibly dipped into the 4th.  One just has to spend a long time in these stages for deeper development and saturation to take place.

[Jhanon]

Everyone is different in how they know what level they're in. That was the idea behind creating the thread where each person was to describe the salient qualities of samadhi levels in their own words. But, I haven't gotten a chance to start it.

That is one of the primary purposes of this case histories section.

If you want confidence in discerning something, you spend time discerning it as you would. For example; for me, the word "bliss" isn't accurate. To me, it's just some strong tactile tingling. A warm bath for you is a cold bath for me, for example. Cal, a friend/member described bliss as "aura." I described bliss as "warm tingling."

The problem with describing one's experience of deep meditation is the language that has been used to describe it changes over thousands of years.  So, the terms 'bliss', 'joy', and 'ecstasy' have no meaning these days.  So, what are we going to do?  Invent a new language like Tolle?  I think it is a bad move, unless you are just marketing yourself.

I wouldn't call it marketing as much as I would call it making samadhi available to as many as possible. When you go to Japan, it's ideal to speak Japanese. These days, "bliss", "joy", and "ecstasy" are almost Japanese for most English speakers. I've gotten the impression from others that the use of these words puts them far away from having any interest in them. And yet they are happy to talk with me about their "really enjoyable lucid dream."

In Japan, their primary language is Japanese. But their television, their media, their marketing, throws in some English here and there, because the culture appears to be transitioning to English. And, this seems to be working for them.

Rather than invent a new language, like Tolle, or stick unwaveringly to what we've hand-picked from various texts--I think a middle way is most effective. Meaning we use descriptive wording not uncommon to the speech of our present culture, and when it feels right, we use the traditional term, or the modern version of the traditional term.

One of the first things I learned from reading the Buddha's discourses years ago, was the observation of natural processes and patterns, and using those to gain insight into skillfulness. And I think the changing of Japanese language gives us a glimpse.

I may be naive, but I think eventually a cross-cultural spiritual thesaurus will need to be created for the experience of samadhi. Unfortunately, I don't feel qualified to do that at present. Because although there are many spiritual synonyms--like ordinary words--their definitions vary despite referencing the overall same thing.

Jhana and samadhi could be synonyms to an aspirant, but they aren't exactly the same to those more experienced. Jhana is the form samadhis 1-4. Whereas samadhi references jhana 1-4, the void, and samadhi 5-8. That's where I think an interactive thesaurus linking each definition to the provided synonyms would be most effective.

On top of that, I am not nearly as educated in all the terms as Jhananda and others here, which could be easily rectified by their assistance. But, even so, it's the format which has me most concerned.

Still, I find myself leaving bed time samadhi to record these synonyms, diagrams and explanations just before I enter sleep.

My apologies for distracting from your case history, bodhimind. I hope this is useful for your case histories, otherwise I will remove it. But, I feel as though this is something worth mentioning for you to read.

[Jhanananda]

I may be naive, but I think eventually a cross-cultural spiritual thesaurus will need to be created for the experience of samadhi. Unfortunately, I don't feel qualified to do that at present. Because although there are many spiritual synonyms--like ordinary words--their definitions vary despite referencing the overall same thing.

I have already done that.  Now all you need to do is get familiar with that cross-cultural spiritual thesaurus which I already developed.

[bodhimind]

No worries Jhanon, it's all very useful information.

Yesterday on the bus, I've tried reading the book by one of the masters who brought me into Buddhist practice (Nan Huai Jin) again, trying to see if the GWV's principles were inside. I was pleasantly surprised, despite the heavy Mahayanist tone he likes to go with.

If you cannot achieve a "body generated by will", then you will not be able to succeed in cultivating practice. All the efforts that you cultivate will only belong to the elementary stage of the four intensified practices. The four intensified practices, prayoga, are called "warming", "the peak", "forbearance" and the "supreme worldly dharma".

To me, that totally sounds like reaching the fourth jhana and entering fifth samadhi with a manomaya. When I first read it the first time, it might be the language problem, but I falsely thought that what he meant was that you had to sustain the physical body by will alone. It was a pretty scary thought lol. Now that I know the concept of the manomaya, it made perfect sense.

Only after the ch'i channels are truly and correctly opened up can light within the body be generated. Even if there is no light, inside the person there is still an expanse of light. Normally when the average person closes his eyes, what is before him is all black. But we must not assume that this expanse of light is the realm of the great light. This would be very wrong! This is still a light that has form. I tell you, only at this time, after this light is generated, can the kundalini rise........reached the phenomenon of "warming" in the four intensified practices.

This sounds a little like the jhana experience I had where light removed my perception of separation and energy rose within me and I couldn't sleep at all that night.

Why can't we ourselves illuminate mind and see our true nature? Because since time without beginning, there has been something operating in our lives: it is the mind that clings to objects, continuing from thought to thought. Because our thoughts can never stop, because even when we are asleep and dreaming, we are still thinking, this is called the mind that clings to objects.

It is a feeling of joy, of comfort, of merging with the universe, of merging with space. It is indescribable, and Idon't want to describe it, because if you have not reached this realm, there is no way for you to understand.

This suddenly reminded me of Jhanananda's experience of the Immaterial Realms on the GWV site.

He views the world's lands and mountains and rivers as images in a clear mirror, which come without sticking, and depart without a trace. He perceives and responds with empty receptivity, without any of his old habits. All there is is a single pure essential reality. From this point, the root source of birth and death is revealed. He sees all classes of sentient beings in all the worlds of the ten directions in all their varieties. Though he has not yet fully comprehended the particular originating points of each of  their lives, he sees the basis for the life they have in common. It is like a wavering haze, glittering, pure but whirling about. This is the ultimate pivot point of floating sense faculties and sense objects............ When the sutra says "shimmering", it does not mean emitting light with physical form; rather, it is describing this flash of movement when it stirs and enters the womb. This is also the inner yin body.

Now this totally sounds like being in the astral realm in a manomaya.

Only if  you can genuinely reach the level where "dreamlike thoughts are dissolved away, and you are always the same whether asleep or awake." If you can really get to this stage, you will sleep comfortably there, hear yourself snoring, and only have to sleep an hour to get the equivalent of seven hours' sleep.

Now this sounds even more like being conscious when you are asleep, and exploring the dream realms.

With pure thought you fly; with pure feeling you fall. People who play with thoughts go upwards, but people who are dragged around by feelings and desires can fall downwards.

This gave me some insight... Would this be the explanation that why beings are rebirthed according to their "habits"? If you have a ton of desires, you're just going to be dragged to that space, almost as if you're astral-travelling, but without a physical body to return to.

The whole universe, along with the individual person's physical and psychological being, the whole body and mind along with the universe: everything is fused together into one whole. It is like a crystal clear sphere, illuminated all the way through inside and out, its whole body suffused with light, without any obstructions.

But i guess one of the problems I have with his writing is that he uses a lot of those technical terms, alike to what you've said above, Jhanon. It's like he's saying a term and expecting people to know what he is specifically referring to. I guess it is more of a problem of expression, just like me confusing his meaning of "body generated by will". He also claims that Mahayanists are completely deluded because if they cannot even reach the Theravada achievement of no-mind, they shouldn't brag at all. He does list a few Pali Canon sutras in the early parts of the book. Haha okay, but that's not the point. The point is that he described all of that which is completely consistent with what I've learnt here.

---

Haha okay so all that backstory for just one question: In his book, he wrote that in samadhi, the breath stops and the body becomes full of breath. Just wondering with reference to GWV's context, around which jhana does the breath stop? Would it be the first jhana?

But it doesn't seem so since I do tend to still have a little bit of a shallow breath while in first jhana.

[Jhanananda]

Haha okay so all that backstory for just one question: In his book, he wrote that in samadhi, the breath stops and the body becomes full of breath. Just wondering with reference to GWV's context, around which jhana does the breath stop? Would it be the first jhana?

But it doesn't seem so since I do tend to still have a little bit of a shallow breath while in first jhana.

It does indeed sound like Nan Huai Chin is speaking of the OOBE and immaterial domains, but there is also the implication of decent into hells after death, for those who cling, verses heavenly domains for those who do not cling. 

On the breath. Most of those who meditate deeply do not have someone observing them closely, and historically there was no electronic monitoring equipment, so when one meditates to the depth of the 4th jhana one can no longer detect the breath; however, the breath will still be occurring, it will just be shallow, and slow.

Once I dated a woman who was a health professional.  She awoke me several time in the year that we dated giving me CPR, because she thought that I had died, because she could not detect my breath, and I slept so deeply, when I was in OOBE.

[bodhimind]

It does indeed sound like Nan Huai Chin is speaking of the OOBE and immaterial domains, but there is also the implication of decent into hells after death, for those who cling, verses heavenly domains for those who do not cling. 

On the breath. Most of those who meditate deeply do not have someone observing them closely, and historically there was no electronic monitoring equipment, so when one meditates to the depth of the 4th jhana one can no longer detect the breath; however, the breath will still be occurring, it will just be shallow, and slow.

Once I dated a woman who was a health professional.  She awoke me several time in the year that we dated giving me CPR, because she thought that I had died, because she could not detect my breath, and I slept so deeply, when I was in OOBE.

Your oxygen requirement must have really plunged, I can't imagine waking up with someone pumping my ribcage lol! I guess that says that at least in fourth or beyond, external respiration stops or becomes shallow enough.

---

A new thing I realized...

When meditating yesterday, I realized that if I am already experiencing the auditory charism, it takes effort to go back into the tingling bliss of the first and second jhana (was wondering if going from first to second then to third could help me go into deeper states). But it seemed as if I could experience full body tingling this time, not just the ear.

This time I took some time to explore the visual charism and under my eyelids there were lights flashing green, purple, orange, white, as if it were some disco ball lol. I've never really realized it because I always kept my eyes closed and turned my awareness inwards into my mind.

A few memories came into my mind yesterday after the session.

I realized that when I was younger, I would unknowingly go into concentration practice. I remember when I was in a German class, when I finished my exam, I stared at this pin in a noticeboard, and then I realized I could go into an extremely hyper-focused mode, where everything around started to become luminous, almost to the point of obscuring my vision, leaving just the pin there. At that point of time, I was a quite rigorously scientific person, so I dismissed it as excessive activation of the photoreceptors in the eyeballs. The pin that I was focusing on disappeared, that was why I thought of it that way. But the point was, this wasn't the only time. I kept doing it again and again, focusing on random things in the car, in the park, in school, etc.

I also wondered why I haven't experienced a really drastic "dark night of the soul", then I realized that when I was young, I DID have a period of such depression. I believe I was about five years old, and I fell into a huge depression, saying that everything in the world was just redundant and people playing in their own sandboxes. Economies, mathematics and even the concept of money were just stories they've created to entertain themselves and distract themselves from who they are.

Being a kid, I was supposed to be addicted to television, but then after that period I didn't want to watch anything to do with television. I sort of realized, as if I was clinging on to lights appearing in an orderly fashion from a digital box and found it so redundant. All I wanted was to "space out", but in a way where I could look inwards. This was when I started seeing visions of this extremely bright point of light. To this date, I still can't figure out what it is.

Then I remember recently when I had a really bad sleep, I woke up to this vision under my eyelids. It was similar to this...



Except it was almost like it was a kaleidoscope. The words kept radiating out from the center. I tried to read the words and it seemed like they were ... Sanskrit maybe? Perhaps I should take up the language of Sanskrit? I've NEVER seen this language in my life before, so it can't be memory from this lifetime at least. My inner guess was that it was Sanskrit, since it looked a little squiggly, but I may be wrong.

PS: I was trying to find the name of this thing so I could find a picture of it, and it was only yesterday when I went to another cousin's house that I saw a picture of this "mantra" arranged in this manner. Kind of coincidental. So I saw the word "mantra" below it and then managed to google an example of it.