Meditation through Virtue?

[bodhimind]

I found this particular sutta amazing:

http://www.greatwesternvehicle.org/pali/Phala_Nikaya/samannaphala.htm

Just like the format of the other suttas, it talks of a graduated experience towards reaching First Jhana to fourth Jhana.

I found the man-made-body part at the end, together with all the various charisms extremely fascinating. It just dawned on me with this translation that all of these abilities applied to the astral body! I can't believe I never thought of it that way, I always attributed those abilities to the physical body itself.

Apart from that, the sutta talks about the following procedure:

> Virtue & Right livelihood
> Sense restraint from all 6 senses
> Mindfulness in all aspects
> Contentment with barest necessities
> Abandonment of 5 hindrances (covetousness as debt; illwill as sickness; sloth as imprisonment, anxiety as slavery, uncertainty as travelling down a desolate road.)

Once this is reached, the Buddha claimed that absorption came naturally and brings the monk to the first Jhana birthed of joy and bliss from withdrawal, along with sustained & applied attention.

Then this transitions into tranquility-birthed joy and bliss in the second Jhana, along with unification of awareness.

Next, joy fades with equanimity, mindfulness and physical sensitivity to bliss resulting in third Jhana, bliss without joy. Then by abandoning joy and anxiety, fourth Jhana is reached.

Is this actually possible as a meditation technique?

I find that sometimes when I keep mindfulness throughout the whole day I "slip" into meditative states extremely quickly.

Also, is there a sutta which speaks of a graduated practice through the fine-material/higher jhanas?

Also, isn't getting to the point of generating a man-made body the domain of astral travelling? Wouldn't their techniques work in that case?

[Jhanananda]

I found this particular sutta amazing:

http://www.greatwesternvehicle.org/pali/Phala_Nikaya/samannaphala.htm

I am glad that you liked the Samannaphala sutta DN-2I find it one of the be descriptions of the mystical life available in any religion.  It is too bad I never met a Buddhist monk who had even heard of the sutta, let alone understood it.

Just like the format of the other suttas, it talks of a graduated experience towards reaching First Jhana to fourth Jhana.

I found the man-made-body part at the end, together with all the various charisms extremely fascinating. It just dawned on me with this translation that all of these abilities applied to the astral body! I can't believe I never thought of it that way, I always attributed those abilities to the physical body itself.

Apart from that, the sutta talks about the following procedure:

> Virtue & Right livelihood
> Sense restraint from all 6 senses
> Mindfulness in all aspects
> Contentment with barest necessities
> Abandonment of 5 hindrances (covetousness as debt; illwill as sickness; sloth as imprisonment, anxiety as slavery, uncertainty as travelling down a desolate road.)

Once this is reached, the Buddha claimed that absorption came naturally and brings the monk to the first Jhana birthed of joy and bliss from withdrawal, along with sustained & applied attention.

This is the exact thing that I have been trying to get across.  We mystics do not make anything happen.  We just get out of the way, and allow the mystical experience to arise on its own.

Then this transitions into tranquility-birthed joy and bliss in the second Jhana, along with unification of awareness.

Next, joy fades with equanimity, mindfulness and physical sensitivity to bliss resulting in third Jhana, bliss without joy. Then by abandoning joy and anxiety, fourth Jhana is reached.

Is this actually possible as a meditation technique?

There is no technique to becoming a mystic.  We just show up, let go, and allow the experience to unfold.  That is it.

I find that sometimes when I keep mindfulness throughout the whole day I "slip" into meditative states extremely quickly.

Correct, so if we can maintain the 3rd jhana all day long, then we are slipping in and out of it all day long.

Also, is there a sutta which speaks of a graduated practice through the fine-material/higher jhanas?

Also, isn't getting to the point of generating a man-made body the domain of astral travelling? Wouldn't their techniques work in that case?

It is not a "man-made body".  It is a "mind-made-body."  It is simply a literal translation of the manomya Pali term.  Astral body would be the western term.

In my experience there really is not a "gradual training" in the immaterial domains.  A human teacher can bring you to the 4th jhana.  After that, you step out on our own into the immaterial domains.  There you will find immaterial teachers and guides.

As for using the techniques of the OOBE schools.  They do not even know what jhana is, nor do they teaching ethics, and they are all about "technique," so they know little of use here.

[bodhimind]

I find it one of the be descriptions of the mystical life available in any religion.  It is too bad I never met a Buddhist monk who had even heard of the sutta, let alone understood it.

I think it's a really amazing sutra because it shows a lot about the importance of virtue itself. It also shows a very natural progression for people to be able to reach Jhana.

This is the exact thing that I have been trying to get across.  We mystics do not make anything happen.  We just get out of the way, and allow the mystical experience to arise on its own.

I thought I understood what you meant, I can't believe that it is only now that I've really gotten it.

Correct, so if we can maintain the 3rd jhana all day long, then we are slipping in and out of it all day long.

Just curious, is there a reason why we function at 3rd jhana instead of 4th? Would it be because by the fourth we would have been at the edge of formlessness?

In my experience there really is not a "gradual training" in the immaterial domains.  A human teacher can bring you to the 4th jhana.  After that, you step out on our own into the immaterial domains.  There you will find immaterial teachers and guides.

As for using the techniques of the OOBE schools.  They do not even know what jhana is, nor do they teaching ethics, and they are all about "technique," so they know little of use here.

Thank you for the clarification, it really helped with my doubts.

Just another question that I'm trying to clarify... I've always been confused by the definition of the realm of "form" and the realm of "formlessness". Would this "form" be physical matter by itself and "formlessness" be non-physical matter (subtler matter)?

I've always been confused since the word "formless" does indicate something without a boundary or form, and that even beings without physical bodies have a type of "form". Would these non-physical beings be then classified under the formless or form? Is formless just another word for non-physical?

[Jhanananda]

Just curious, is there a reason why we function at 3rd jhana instead of 4th? Would it be because by the fourth we would have been at the edge of formlessness?

Yes, in the 4th jhana one is at the edge of the immaterial domains, and barely has a sense of body, so there would not be enough body awareness to walk at the 4th jhana.  However, my experience of working mostly from the 3rd jhana for decades is in the case of a pending accident I have successfully maneuvered out of the way spontaneously without engaging thought.

Thank you for the clarification, it really helped with my doubts.

Just another question that I'm trying to clarify... I've always been confused by the definition of the realm of "form" and the realm of "formlessness". Would this "form" be physical matter by itself and "formlessness" be non-physical matter (subtler matter)?

I've always been confused since the word "formless" does indicate something without a boundary or form, and that even beings without physical bodies have a type of "form". Would these non-physical beings be then classified under the formless or form? Is formless just another word for non-physical?

The Sanskrit term 'rupa' refers to material existence, as well as concrete conversation; whereas the Sanskrit term 'arupa' refers to the immaterial domains, which are non-physical, thus the dead, and angels, etc; as well as abstract concepts.

[bodhimind]

The Sanskrit term 'rupa' refers to material existence, as well as concrete conversation; whereas the Sanskrit term 'arupa' refers to the immaterial domains, which are non-physical, thus the dead, and angels, etc; as well as abstract concepts.

Thank you, it really clarifies things. I always thought 'formless' meant informational, abstract archetypes and concepts only - maybe clinging on to that notion stopped my progress into fourth Jhana and beyond.