Making Choices, The Three Poisons, & Liberation

[jay.validus]

This is an internal truth I have known all my life, but I am finally able to put it into some type of coherent words.  I have found that many spiritual teachers like to degrade the joys that life can bring, by using excuses like craving and ignorance.  From what I have heard and experienced, if for example one likes to dance or sing, one should not if they are on the path to enlightenment.  This is because one will sing or dance out of craving to the pleasantness, and is therefore is ignorant to the truth of their reality.  One could also sing or dance out of aversion of something unpleasant the singing or dancing covers and suppresses.  This to is ignorance.

I see the value in choosing not to make certain choices or decisions, like singing or dancing, for a period of time to destroy the impurities of the mind.  However, after such a period of time, is it really wise to deny our internal nature?  Our creative force?  The bliss and joy that comes with living?

A time for everything and everything for its time. 

I find the ten fetters, although may be absolute in their truth to purifying one's mind of attachment and desire, are the essential factors one must embrace to really live with liberation, which means making choices based in non-clinging, non-aversion, and non-delusion.  One could call this mindfulness.

For example, if we go down the list of a few of the fetters,

1) belief in the self
    I find, if we are making choices with mindfulness, free from clinging, aversion, and delusion, and comes from a place of non-clinging, non-aversion, and non-delusion, then it is essential we have a belief in the self.  This belief in the self is just a belief, we can see the illusion and the ultimate reality, the divine, as we decide our choices and actions.  But without a belief in the self, we are just being unconscious, we can easily be led astray, we can easily let other define our sense of self for us.  Are we just a worker bee or are we more advanced than that?  Who thinks for us?
2) Sceptical Doubt
    I find doubt is an essential element of our mind to help us think for ourselves.  The doubt as a fetter may refer to the teachings or the divine, to which I have no doubt over, but as to my interactions with the world, doubt seems to be very important.  If someone lies to me, do I blindly accept it?  If I have clear seeing and see the truth of the matter from my own eye, do I trust the words outside, or is the doubt rising in me just trying to remind me of my own truth?
3) Attachment to Rites and Rituals
    The more I go on living, the more I see the importance of rites and rituals, but again, not with ignorance or blind faith.  When one is mindful, making choices based on non-clinging, non-aversion, non-delusion, how is a ritual or ceremony such a bad event?  They are essential elements humans evolved to partake in to sing, dance, and pass on wisdom from one generation to the next.  To share the joys of life together, while being mindful free from ignorance, does not seem like such a bad thing.
4) Lust for Material or Immaterial Existence
    We are already living, we are already here, is it wrong to embrace our life?  Again, if we are mindful and purify our minds of the desires to exist, we are liberated to fully start living, to make choices from a place of non-craving, non-aversion, and non-delusion.
5) Restlessness
    Everything seems to exist on a scale from nothing to something.  Because we are already living, we are already here, is restlessness really such a bad thing?  If restlessness is only guiding us to do something from nothing, is it really something we would want to disappear?  If one sees through the illusion and sees the ultimate reality (the divine), restlessness is only a power within us to guide us, our purpose.  What is purpose?  The reason to exist, a choice we are capable of making free from craving, aversion, and delusion.

The seven deadly sins:
    greed; gluttony; lust; envy; wrath; pride; sloth.

I have found that when one is making choices free from craving, aversion, and delusion, then the seven "deadly" sins are not something to fear.  There are part of our nature, and can exist in a state of non-craving, non-aversion, and non-delusion.  For example, greed is the part of ourselves to remind us we need something to survive, like food.  It is just the reality of living.  Wrath can be our power to stand up for ourselves when it is proper, in a place free from non-craving, non-aversion, and non-delusion.   Pride could be our power that arises to remind us of the truth we are experiencing, a place that can be free from craving, aversion, and delusion.

The Process of Becoming....

Oh it is so bad, say all the spiritual teachers.  The fact is it happens whether or not I give my attention to it.  The problem is not the process of becoming, but the attachment to the process itself, the underlying desire.  If we are making our choices from a place of non-craving, non-aversion, and non-delusion, and the process of becoming keeps happening anyway, why not make choices seeing the truth of the illusion and the ultimate reality?  We are here anyway, we are living.  If we have so much aversion to existence, we should have stayed in the nexus.

Bottom-line, I think we people have lots of internal power, and when utilized properly, can lead to one actually enjoying one's life.  This can come from a place of non-craving, non-aversion, and non-delusion.  All the parts of our minds, like the deadly sins, seem to have very important roles within us.  To me it sounds like a bad idea to ignore our own internal nature because someone else says they are bad.  To me, that sounds like the Other is only trying to silence us.  Although i can see how our minds can become corrupted with attachment and desire, when we operate out of a place of liberation and love, then the "bad" part of ourselves seem to serve a very strong purpose. 

[Michel]

Craving, desire, wanting, or lust for the things of the world are all states of agitation. All of  them to various degrees, of course.  Some of these states are burning with strong passions. We can end  up doing the most horrendous things when we are in the grips of craving. Craving leads to clinging to the object of one's craving. "Becoming," is movement towards the birth of suffering -- because all things of this world are fleeting, impermanent, and subject to decay and death.

Hatred, or aversion towards things is just another form of craving. It is wanting to be rid of something as opposed to wanting to have something.

Delusion is not understanding that craving leads to suffering. A belief that getting the object of one's craving is fulfilling.

So, it is much better to seek a state of equanimity than to allow this natural tendency of craving and aversion to develop to its inevitable conclusion -- which is suffering. Sever the link between feeling and craving. Dwell in equanimity in a state of the non-duality.  That is the sweet spot. That is basic Dependent Origination.

[Jhanananda]

This is an internal truth I have known all my life, but I am finally able to put it into some type of coherent words.  I have found that many spiritual teachers like to degrade the joys that life can bring, by using excuses like craving and ignorance.  From what I have heard and experienced, if for example one likes to dance or sing, one should not if they are on the path to enlightenment.  This is because one will sing or dance out of craving to the pleasantness, and is therefore is ignorant to the truth of their reality.  One could also sing or dance out of aversion of something unpleasant the singing or dancing covers and suppresses.  This to is ignorance.

I see the value in choosing not to make certain choices or decisions, like singing or dancing, for a period of time to destroy the impurities of the mind.  However, after such a period of time, is it really wise to deny our internal nature?  Our creative force?  The bliss and joy that comes with living?

A time for everything and everything for its time. 

I too happen to have a problem with the Buddhist injunction on singing and dancing, because I know that singing and dancing are ways in which some people experience spiritual communion.  In fact I have.

I find the ten fetters, although may be absolute in their truth to purifying one's mind of attachment and desire, are the essential factors one must embrace to really live with liberation, which means making choices based in non-clinging, non-aversion, and non-delusion.  One could call this mindfulness.

For example, if we go down the list of a few of the fetters,

1) belief in the self
    I find, if we are making choices with mindfulness, free from clinging, aversion, and delusion, and comes from a place of non-clinging, non-aversion, and non-delusion, then it is essential we have a belief in the self.  This belief in the self is just a belief, we can see the illusion and the ultimate reality, the divine, as we decide our choices and actions.  But without a belief in the self, we are just being unconscious, we can easily be led astray, we can easily let other define our sense of self for us.  Are we just a worker bee or are we more advanced than that?  Who thinks for us?
2) Sceptical Doubt
    I find doubt is an essential element of our mind to help us think for ourselves.  The doubt as a fetter may refer to the teachings or the divine, to which I have no doubt over, but as to my interactions with the world, doubt seems to be very important.  If someone lies to me, do I blindly accept it?  If I have clear seeing and see the truth of the matter from my own eye, do I trust the words outside, or is the doubt rising in me just trying to remind me of my own truth?
3) Attachment to Rites and Rituals
    The more I go on living, the more I see the importance of rites and rituals, but again, not with ignorance or blind faith.  When one is mindful, making choices based on non-clinging, non-aversion, non-delusion, how is a ritual or ceremony such a bad event?  They are essential elements humans evolved to partake in to sing, dance, and pass on wisdom from one generation to the next.  To share the joys of life together, while being mindful free from ignorance, does not seem like such a bad thing.
4) Lust for Material or Immaterial Existence
    We are already living, we are already here, is it wrong to embrace our life?  Again, if we are mindful and purify our minds of the desires to exist, we are liberated to fully start living, to make choices from a place of non-craving, non-aversion, and non-delusion.
5) Restlessness
    Everything seems to exist on a scale from nothing to something.  Because we are already living, we are already here, is restlessness really such a bad thing?  If restlessness is only guiding us to do something from nothing, is it really something we would want to disappear?  If one sees through the illusion and sees the ultimate reality (the divine), restlessness is only a power within us to guide us, our purpose.  What is purpose?  The reason to exist, a choice we are capable of making free from craving, aversion, and delusion.

The seven deadly sins:
    greed; gluttony; lust; envy; wrath; pride; sloth.

I have found that when one is making choices free from craving, aversion, and delusion, then the seven "deadly" sins are not something to fear.  There are part of our nature, and can exist in a state of non-craving, non-aversion, and non-delusion.  For example, greed is the part of ourselves to remind us we need something to survive, like food.  It is just the reality of living.  Wrath can be our power to stand up for ourselves when it is proper, in a place free from non-craving, non-aversion, and non-delusion.   Pride could be our power that arises to remind us of the truth we are experiencing, a place that can be free from craving, aversion, and delusion.

The Process of Becoming....

Oh it is so bad, say all the spiritual teachers.  The fact is it happens whether or not I give my attention to it.  The problem is not the process of becoming, but the attachment to the process itself, the underlying desire.  If we are making our choices from a place of non-craving, non-aversion, and non-delusion, and the process of becoming keeps happening anyway, why not make choices seeing the truth of the illusion and the ultimate reality?  We are here anyway, we are living.  If we have so much aversion to existence, we should have stayed in the nexus.

Bottom-line, I think we people have lots of internal power, and when utilized properly, can lead to one actually enjoying one's life.  This can come from a place of non-craving, non-aversion, and non-delusion.  All the parts of our minds, like the deadly sins, seem to have very important roles within us.  To me it sounds like a bad idea to ignore our own internal nature because someone else says they are bad.  To me, that sounds like the Other is only trying to silence us.  Although i can see how our minds can become corrupted with attachment and desire, when we operate out of a place of liberation and love, then the "bad" part of ourselves seem to serve a very strong purpose.

When you become saturate at the depth of the 3rd to 4th stage you may change your mind about some of what you have written above.  Also, do keep in mind that there are some translation errors in some of the Pali Canon, so you might look into a better translation.

Good response Michel.

[jay.validus]

I know what you guys are saying.  It is completely true, but by the same token, I do not see the wickedness of somebody ever disappearing.  A person's choice may change, the direction changes, but the underlying aspect of their nature remains.   I think it is valuable to explore the deeper and darker aspects of one's nature/mind and then change the wicked parts of our minds for the better, but in a way that leads of the elimination of one's attachments, one's clinging, and ultimately one's desires.  Their is a strong energetic pull of such a task, but this is where morality becomes important.

I know this is not a popular thing to say in a Buddhist forum.  All what I say only came after I started mediating every day.  Before I started a sitting practice, I still did a walking practice, without calling it anything.  I do not see the problem needing to use the tools available to the mind to interact with the world.  I use a cast iron pan everyday.  It is a great tool but I am not attached to it.  When it ceases to be useful then I move on.

I have a picture of many mediators, they do not stand up for themselves when necessary.  I was bullied as a kid, but I took it because I did not want to hurt anyone.  I still do not want to hurt anyone.  But, does my love and compassion stop at me?  I am the passive one while another chooses to hurt me?  I take and take, while another hurts and hurts?  NO!  There is a limit where you must love yourself and say, I am existing too!   It seems like passivity is taken as a virtue because it means your not attached to the process of existence.  That is silly, it is happening anyway. I see nothing wrong with defending yourself, to show a boundary to another, while giving out "compassionate" harm. For example, push someway instead of you getting a broken arm.

[Jhanananda]

I know what you guys are saying.  It is completely true, but by the same token, I do not see the wickedness of somebody ever disappearing.  A person's choice may change, the direction changes, but the underlying aspect of their nature remains.   I think it is valuable to explore the deeper and darker aspects of one's nature/mind and then change the wicked parts of our minds for the better, but in a way that leads of the elimination of one's attachments, one's clinging, and ultimately one's desires.  Their is a strong energetic pull of such a task, but this is where morality becomes important.

We call the changing of the "wicked parts of our mind" discrimination, and discipline.  Also, in my experience, and in the reports from my students, as we deepen our meditation practice, and develop saturation in the deeper states, then we find that we are automatically changed into better people, meaning that our obsessions disappear.

I know this is not a popular thing to say in a Buddhist forum.  All what I say only came after I started mediating every day.  Before I started a sitting practice, I still did a walking practice, without calling it anything.  I do not see the problem needing to use the tools available to the mind to interact with the world.  I use a cast iron pan everyday.  It is a great tool but I am not attached to it.  When it ceases to be useful then I move on.

I have a picture of many mediators, they do not stand up for themselves when necessary.  I was bullied as a kid, but I took it because I did not want to hurt anyone.  I still do not want to hurt anyone.  But, does my love and compassion stop at me?  I am the passive one while another chooses to hurt me?  I take and take, while another hurts and hurts?  NO!  There is a limit where you must love yourself and say, I am existing too!   It seems like passivity is taken as a virtue because it means your not attached to the process of existence.  That is silly, it is happening anyway. I see nothing wrong with defending yourself, to show a boundary to another, while giving out "compassionate" harm. For example, push someway instead of you getting a broken arm.

I studied martial arts for 10 years.  I needed it to defend myself against my abusive family. 

Recently I was threatened by a gang of 5 want-to-be gangsters in Sedona, AZ, of all places.  I am not a roll-over-me-and-die kind of person.  If I have to I will defend myself at the level that I have to.  So, I purchased a security camera system, and installed it.  I then secured the perimeter of my place in Sedona, then I bought a 357, and a box of bullets, and practiced shooting until I could put all 5 rounds on the target without aiming.  I then informed the want-to-be gangster gang of my martial arts skills and skill with fire arms, and my willingness to kill anyone of them that returned to the property after eviction.  They left me alone, because they knew that I would be well within my rights to do so. 

I thus have no problem with any contemplative who resorts to self-defense.  Otherwise we are just the persecuted.  Remember the history of the many martyred mystics.