Author Topic: The lower arts  (Read 10188 times)

Sam Lim

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The lower arts
« on: September 26, 2015, 06:54:56 PM »
Astrology is considered a lower art in the Buddhist text. I think.


I just wanted to relate this story or events that I have experienced while my god-son was alive. I don't know when but many years ago I went to visit my god-son in India. On a particular day I brought the subject of astrology and wondered that in this village is there a good astrologer that I could consult. He said yes that there is one who is very good and not necessary famous. The next day we went to consult the astrologer.
This is Indian Astrologer and from what I gather is quite different from the Western ones.

We arrive in this house where are a few people are waiting for a consultation. Finally, my turn came and we went into the house. He ask for my date of birth and etc. He went to check whatever he is supposed to be doing. He came back and told my god-son why am I consulting him, since I know everything. Quite frankly, I don't know what is going on. Then I realized that he found out that I am a yogi from the charts and indicates that I know everything and that I won't be reborn again. Then I got up from the floor (everyone sits on the floor in India) he became frightened. I wonder why.....

Dissatisfied with the consultation, I ask my god-son if there is any other astrologer that can tell me something. A few days later, we went to one and the same thing happened. This time the guy just told us to leave as he can't tell anything.

Two more occasssions with other astrologer came with the same results.

I was wondering, is Indian astrology so accurate? Why can't they predict anything about me?

Jhanananda

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Re: The lower arts
« Reply #1 on: September 27, 2015, 02:06:41 AM »
I was wondering, is Indian astrology so accurate? Why can't they predict anything about me?

I am not sure how they could tell that you are a mystic from your chart, but villages are the same everywhere around the world, which means everyone knows everyone's business there.  So, your godson may have discussed your training with him, which got back to the astrologers, who may have realized that you are the real deal; whereas, the village astrologers were most probably not mystics.
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Sam Lim

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Re: The lower arts
« Reply #2 on: September 27, 2015, 02:25:39 AM »
I don't think so. I have specifically told him not to tell anyone because I know how Indians are with spirituality. Don't want loads of people coming to me. In any case, this astrologer was from another village. Furthermore, there are other astrologers as well and they are not from the same village. Just curious that is all. They are quite accurate because I did not feed them any information about myself and my god-son was informed of that. Maybe Michael can shed some light. He's the astrologer here.

Jhanananda

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Re: The lower arts
« Reply #3 on: September 27, 2015, 12:47:31 PM »
OK, yes, Michael Hawkins could do your chart to see what it was in your chart that made them believe that you were fully enlightened or the next messiah, or whatever they believed.  However, there will be quite a few people on earth with the same astrology that you have, so either they are all messiahs or Indian astrology needs an update.
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Sam Lim

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Re: The lower arts
« Reply #4 on: September 27, 2015, 05:42:30 PM »
First I must point out that they say I know everything which is obviously not true. The thing I find accurate is that they know that I am a yogi or contemplative and that I won't be reborn. They never said that I am the next messiah or I am fully enlightened. Let's not make assumptions that we know what the astrologer meant.  I am curious to know how the placement of the planets with accordance to your birthday can foretell your future? Probably, there isn't anything of value to foretell about me. LOL.


Alexander

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Re: The lower arts
« Reply #5 on: September 27, 2015, 06:17:28 PM »
Sounds like a powerful experience, Sam. It's nice to get affirmation from people now and then. And I like you keep it a secret from the Indians - sounds like a smart course!

I remember growing up there were different people who "knew" where I was headed. They were all quite ordinary people, but at least in that moment they had intuition and "knew." I had one teacher, for example, and his sister: and I had a couple friends, also, who were aware. One friend struggled to find a word to express what I was: so he referred to me half-jokingly, half-seriously as a "prophet." Another friend tagged a photo of me so I had an "inward looking eye": a fascinating thing from someone with no knowledge of mysticism.
« Last Edit: September 27, 2015, 07:23:04 PM by Alexander »
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Michel

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Re: The lower arts
« Reply #6 on: September 27, 2015, 10:57:12 PM »
Probably, there isn't anything of value to foretell about me. LOL.
That's because you don't exist, Sam, LOL. You've destroyed your egoic self. I remember the last time I told a psychiatrist I didn't exist, he had two burly male psychiatric attendants, each one the size of a Buick, hold me down, while a nurse injected my butt with a high dose of anti-psychotics. WOOOW! Those guys don't fool around!
« Last Edit: September 28, 2015, 04:00:03 PM by Michel »

bodhimind

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Re: The lower arts
« Reply #7 on: September 28, 2015, 02:42:05 AM »
I heard of an enlightened master who got his fortune read (reading of bones) before his union experience, saying that he would die from a terminal disease. After his union, the fortune teller was shocked to find out that he had lived more than 2 years past the prognosis. There were many other kind of stories like these, where predictions did not seem to work on enlightened people.

Perhaps it is because these afflictions, habits and neuroses were what guided a person to a certain fate, but now that you have burned that away, it is no longer possible to predict one's trajectory? Now that I think about it, it feels as if this "ego delusion" is what drives people to certain situations.

I've heard of a Chinese divination method known as "Tie Ban Shen Shu" based on the I-Ching that could predict events and people's names who the individual would meet with. I'm not sure about Vedic astrology though, but given India's history I would not be surprised that they had found a similar method.

From what I read, it is based off the Hermetic axiom "As above, down below", which shows how the movement of astrological bodies reflect somewhat a "snapshot of the cosmos" at the time of birth.
« Last Edit: September 28, 2015, 02:44:18 AM by bodhimind »

Jhanananda

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Re: The lower arts
« Reply #8 on: September 28, 2015, 03:15:39 AM »
First I must point out that they say I know everything which is obviously not true. The thing I find accurate is that they know that I am a yogi or contemplative and that I won't be reborn. They never said that I am the next messiah or I am fully enlightened. Let's not make assumptions that we know what the astrologer meant.  I am curious to know how the placement of the planets with accordance to your birthday can foretell your future? Probably, there isn't anything of value to foretell about me. LOL.

The problem with most astrologers and psychics is they will tell you anything you want, if you pay them enough.

That's because you don't exist, Sam, LOL. You've destroyed your egoic self. I remember the last time I told a psychiatrist I didn't exist, he had two burly male psychiatric attendants, each one the size of a Buick, hold me down, while a nurse injected my butt with a high dose of anti-psychotics. WOE! Those guys don't fool around!

I am sorry to read about your rough treatment, but the way you put it cracked me up :-)
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Alexander

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Re: The lower arts
« Reply #9 on: September 28, 2015, 06:36:44 AM »
My mother made me see a psychiatrist when I was 15, Michel. That was a big year for me. Anyway, I decided I would try to outsmart the psychiatrist. I omitted telling her about the intrusive thinking I was having about one of my classmates, and about my interest in G. I. Gurdjieff. The first because I wanted to get out of there: the second because I knew the mention of anything "different" would cause trouble. I certainly wanted to avoid being labeled as having a mental disorder: as I knew that would have caused an irredeemable headache, and I knew whatever path was in front of me would be challenging enough.

I knew I was a mess inside, but I also knew (and, ironically, that 15 year old was right) that I knew more about the mind than the woman in front of me ever would. I knew that she was wasting my time.

I only ended up having one visit to the psychiatrist; however, it did not allay the fears of my at the time highly-strung mother. That experience ended up becoming the beginning of my "death" to my family (recalling the prescription from Christ to do so). I could not stand my family for a long time, and tried to distance myself from them. "Come out from among them, and be you separate," says the Lord.

It is very challenging to be a streamwinner. Because while you're on the right path, and you know a lot, you can't communicate what you know to others. When you do it just comes out as nonsense. You also say things to the wrong people. I tried to tell one of my girlfriends about my inner path when I was 17. All it did was confuse her. I learned the best way is self-restraint, silence, and patience. Not to worry: the eloquence will come later on.

I am thinking of a quote from John of the Cross I posted recently:

Quote
The angel said unto Tobias “Because you were acceptable to God, it was necessary that temptations should prove you.” Tobias was acceptable to God, therefore He tried him; He gave him the grace of tribulation, the source of greater graces still...

This is an apropos way to look back on my experience with the psychiatrist, and similar experiences. I complained about it after, saying it was an extra grievance when I was already suffering. But, my navigation of those problems demanded I be given something else: and by navigating that I gained even more.
« Last Edit: September 28, 2015, 06:43:24 AM by Alexander »
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Jhanananda

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Re: The lower arts
« Reply #10 on: September 28, 2015, 12:25:48 PM »
My experience was much like Alexander's.  I knew if I explained my interior life to a psychiatrist, then I would be institutionalized, or medicated until I drooled.  I was fortunate that my parents knew that they had abused me criminally, so they did their best to keep me out of the psychiatrist's office.
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Michel

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Re: The lower arts
« Reply #11 on: September 28, 2015, 04:15:36 PM »
That's because you don't exist, Sam, LOL. You've destroyed your egoic self. I remember the last time I told a psychiatrist I didn't exist, he had two burly male psychiatric attendants, each one the size of a Buick, hold me down, while a nurse injected my butt with a high dose of anti-psychotics. WOOOW! Those guys don't fool around!

I am sorry to read about your rough treatment, but the way you put it cracked me up :-)
I'll just have to crack you up more often, Jhananda. LOL. Psychiatrists are good material for humour since many of them have no sense of humour. Many of them are arrogant, condescending and consider some of their patients with "mental disorders" to be less than human.
« Last Edit: September 28, 2015, 04:21:46 PM by Michel »

jay.validus

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Re: The lower arts
« Reply #12 on: September 28, 2015, 05:11:09 PM »
Quote
I'll just have to crack you up more often, Jhananda. LOL. Psychiatrists are good material for humour since many of them have no sense of humour. Many of them are arrogant, condescending and consider some of their patients with "mental disorders" to be less than human.

I had someone tell me once, "Having an extraordinary sense requires the skill of keeping your mouth shut".  I have kept most of my experiences to myself because I did not want what happened to you to happen to me.  Not only will people look at you crazy, but as one starts to talk about the extreme experiences then people look at you like you have a problem.  It's hard when you need to talk about something nobody will understand.

I have found that people with mystical experiences often do their best to express their experiences to others.  In my case, as a child I was mesmerized by graffiti.  Images and poems on the side of a wall were my way of knowing I was never alone.  I am not sure how this helps you, but I guess I wanted to share.
« Last Edit: September 28, 2015, 05:18:32 PM by jay.validus »

Michel

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Re: The lower arts
« Reply #13 on: September 28, 2015, 08:00:19 PM »
My mother made me see a psychiatrist when I was 15, Michel. That was a big year for me. Anyway, I decided I would try to outsmart the psychiatrist. I omitted telling her about the intrusive thinking I was having about one of my classmates, and about my interest in G. I. Gurdjieff. The first because I wanted to get out of there: the second because I knew the mention of anything "different" would cause trouble. I certainly wanted to avoid being labeled as having a mental disorder: as I knew that would have caused an irredeemable headache, and I knew whatever path was in front of me would be challenging enough.
I knew I was a mess inside, but I also knew (and, ironically, that 15 year old was right) that I knew more about the mind than the woman in front of me ever would. I knew that she was wasting my time.
You started very young on the path. Gurdjieff is heavy duty stuff. I took a preliminary look at him. He sure likes the women. LOL. I stumbled across J. Kristnamurti when I was 27 which was my first look at Eastern thought.

My first encounter with a psychiatrist was a disappointment. I was 22 then. After some 3 sessions I realized he had nothing to offer, so I left.

At age 27 I was in a deep, chronic depression, totally desperate. So the family pressured me to see a psychiatrist. This fellow was a well-educated, sophisticated, a European gentlemen. He was very smooth and laid back. His personality and appearance was very much like the actor Ricardo Montalbán. He spoke with a deep masculine, confident voice, with an eloquence that I had never heard before - giving the impression that he was all knowing. So I thought this guy might be able to help me - he became my mentor. It was a terrible mistake, because I was eventually medicated with an antidepressant that induced a manic episode. So he diagnosed me as bipolar. It was downhill from there on. Once they get you on the drugs you become addicted and you're at their mercy. This goes into your file which follows you from doctor to doctor for the rest of your life. They have tremendous power over you.

At the time that I first saw him, I told him that I felt I was somehow different from most people because I was very shy and withdrawn from most people. I just didn't trust most people. I had this feeling that there was something tremendously important that was worth pursuing. I didn't know what that was at that time. But he did inspire me to read books and expand my knowledge. So, I started to read and investigate literature that I thought would provide answers to my questions. When I showed an interest in exploring meditation and Eastern ideas he discouraged me. This had some influence on me. But not completely. It's best to follow your own path.

Years later I heard this doctor speaking to one of his colleagues in the hall. He said that he didn't like any of his patients. Little did he know that I heard this. When he realized that I was close by waiting in the reception room, and when I saw him - he looked totally embarrassed. I pretended not to notice, since I was on many of his addictive drugs and knew that it would be problematic finding a new doctor and they would probably change my meds. By that time I had realized that l couldn't trust any of these doctors. So I remained silent and played along with his game.
 
I only ended up having one visit to the psychiatrist; however, it did not allay the fears of my at the time highly-strung mother. That experience ended up becoming the beginning of my "death" to my family (recalling the prescription from Christ to do so). I could not stand my family for a long time, and tried to distance myself from them. "Come out from among them, and be you separate," says the Lord.
The Buddha did not abandon his family. He helped his mother, his son, Raoul, and his wife attain enlightenment. But he had to leave them first and go forth into homelessness. So in that sense you might say he did abandon them.
It is very challenging to be a streamwinner. Because while you're on the right path, and you know a lot, you can't communicate what you know to others. When you do it just comes out as nonsense. You also say things to the wrong people. I tried to tell one of my girlfriends about my inner path when I was 17. All it did was confuse her. I learned the best way is self-restraint, silence, and patience. Not to worry: the eloquence will come later on.
Yes, I find it difficult to express what I know to others. But I did manage to help my nephew with the physical pain that he was suffering when he managed to impale his butt on a tree limb while climbing. I told him about which thoughts he should allow and which thoughts he should avoid in order to reduce his mental affliction regarding the pain. It's knowledge that comes straight out of the Dhamma. We are blessed that we are exposed to theses "greatest" of  all knowledges. I am just a beginner and I feel I know a lot already, but I still have much more to learn. One day the speech will come to teach others that will listen.
I am thinking of a quote from John of the Cross I posted recently:
Quote
The angel said unto Tobias “Because you were acceptable to God, it was necessary that temptations should prove you.” Tobias was acceptable to God, therefore He tried him; He gave him the grace of tribulation, the source of greater graces still...
This is an apropos way to look back on my experience with the psychiatrist, and similar experiences. I complained about it after, saying it was an extra grievance when I was already suffering. But, my navigation of those problems demanded I be given something else: and by navigating that I gained even more.
Everything is a test. And let's not forget the small stuff: The box of a dozen eggs that falls on the floor, the noise next door, the pain in your foot, the fly in your soup.
« Last Edit: September 28, 2015, 08:04:08 PM by Michel »

Michel

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Re: The lower arts
« Reply #14 on: September 28, 2015, 08:24:52 PM »
I had someone tell me once, "Having an extraordinary sense requires the skill of keeping your mouth shut".
Good advice. I learned it the hard way.

I have kept most of my experiences to myself because I did not want what happened to you to happen to me.

Not only will people look at you crazy, but as one starts to talk about the extreme experiences then people look at you like you have a problem.  It's hard when you need to talk about something nobody will understand.
I am accustomed to people saying I have a problem. It is next to impossible to hide it from people when you are in a full blown psychotic state of mania due to what the experts call bipolar disorder - which is what was happening to me at the time I was forced to take anti-psychotics. 

I have found that people with mystical experiences often do their best to express their experiences to others.  In my case, as a child I was mesmerized by graffiti.  Images and poems on the side of a wall were my way of knowing I was never alone.  I am not sure how this helps you, but I guess I wanted to share.
Thanks for sharing, Jay.