Author Topic: Subconsious programming in Jhana?  (Read 4687 times)

guilotine

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Subconsious programming in Jhana?
« on: October 15, 2015, 10:50:55 PM »
As I have mentioned in my introduction post. I want to be able to develop the jhanas to apply them in daily life to excel in career and relationships. One of the major problems I have right now is limiting beliefs. I tend to have limiting beliefs that make me feel that I am not good enough and not worthy of good things. This manifests strongly in my love life and at times can cause me a lot of depression. I don't know where these feelings came from as I come from a loving household but they are there.

Will developing a jhana practice be able to help me change internal beliefs and become the kind of person I want to be? If so how would I proceed about this? Do I enter deeper states of meditation and visualize or affirm positive statements?

My current meditation practice is 1.5 hours straight in the evening after work. Is this a good amount of time? I can probably add in one or two more smaller sessions in there as well. I feel myself going deeper the more I meditate but am not experiencing the levels of bliss I have read about yet. However I do think I am closing in on the first jhana.

EDIT: From what I have read the charisms are pleasant sensations that arise during meditation right? And once you feel it you focus on it until it grows?
When I started meditating a long time ago I would feel a pressure on my forehead between my eye(third eye area). Sometimes as my concentration increased this would spread to all over head. This is not pleasant nor unpleasant so I am not sure if I should consider this a charism? Should I focus on this pressure and let this grow? Also sometimes I feel a cool peaceful feeling inside my head. It feeld like a cool breeze flowing through my head. Could this be considered a charism?
« Last Edit: October 15, 2015, 11:13:14 PM by guilotine »

Cal

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Re: Subconsious programming in Jhana?
« Reply #1 on: October 15, 2015, 11:42:42 PM »
As I have mentioned in my introduction post. I want to be able to develop the jhanas to apply them in daily life to excel in career and relationships. One of the major problems I have right now is limiting beliefs. I tend to have limiting beliefs that make me feel that I am not good enough and not worthy of good things. This manifests strongly in my love life and at times can cause me a lot of depression. I don't know where these feelings came from as I come from a loving household but they are there.

Will developing a jhana practice be able to help me change internal beliefs and become the kind of person I want to be? If so how would I proceed about this? Do I enter deeper states of meditation and visualize or affirm positive statements?

My current meditation practice is 1.5 hours straight in the evening after work. Is this a good amount of time? I can probably add in one or two more smaller sessions in there as well. I feel myself going deeper the more I meditate but am not experiencing the levels of bliss I have read about yet. However I do think I am closing in on the first jhana.

EDIT: From what I have read the charisms are pleasant sensations that arise during meditation right? And once you feel it you focus on it until it grows?
When I started meditating a long time ago I would feel a pressure on my forehead between my eye(third eye area). Sometimes as my concentration increased this would spread to all over head. This is not pleasant nor unpleasant so I am not sure if I should consider this a charism? Should I focus on this pressure and let this grow? Also sometimes I feel a cool peaceful feeling inside my head. It feeld like a cool breeze flowing through my head. Could this be considered a charism?

Guilotine, hi. Every time I read your user name I think of a be-heading lol.

Stop relying so heavily on what others tell you and more on the intuition that brought you here. One of the most debilitating things in reaching Jhana, is medication. Michel, a long time member here, he can talk some about this, if you're interested. 

"I tend to have limiting beliefs that make me feel that I am not good enough and not worthy of good things."
You certainly are good enough and you do deserve good things. It is the "context" which concerns me.

"Will developing a jhana practice be able to help me change internal beliefs and become the kind of person I want to be?"
Yes, but I'm not sure if its in the way you "think" it means, friend.

Just my thoughts.

guilotine

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Re: Subconsious programming in Jhana?
« Reply #2 on: October 15, 2015, 11:47:42 PM »
Hi Cal, thanks for the swift response.

"One of the most debilitating things in reaching Jhana, is medication" - I am not sure what you mean. I am not on any medication and am quite healthy physically.

"You certainly are good enough and you do deserve good things. It is the "context" which concerns me. " -
Could you explain in more detail what is concerning?


"Yes, but I'm not sure if its in the way you "think" it means, friend." -
How do you think it will help then?

Thanks

Cal

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Re: Subconsious programming in Jhana?
« Reply #3 on: October 16, 2015, 12:22:57 AM »
Hi Cal, thanks for the swift response.

"One of the most debilitating things in reaching Jhana, is medication" - I am not sure what you mean. I am not on any medication and am quite healthy physically.

"You certainly are good enough and you do deserve good things. It is the "context" which concerns me. " -
Could you explain in more detail what is concerning?


"Yes, but I'm not sure if its in the way you "think" it means, friend." -
How do you think it will help then?

Thanks

Sure, I can do that.

Hi Cal, thanks for the swift response.

"One of the most debilitating things in reaching Jhana, is medication" - I am not sure what you mean. I am not on any medication and am quite healthy physically.

Sorry, this was a mistake on my part, I was thinking of another.

"You certainly are good enough and you do deserve good things. It is the "context" which concerns me. " -
Could you explain in more detail what is concerning?

What you ask for in Jhana, is basically a dis-inclination to what you seek. Which is to excel in career and interaction. For one who experiences jhana regularly has little need for the socially driven construct. One may see a change in "perspective", a transformation if you will. This transformation IS subtle for some, so while a deep meditation practice can assist you in being "one-pointed" in daily life, it is concerning because those who generally experience jhana also experience the opposite to what you desire.

"Yes, but I'm not sure if its in the way you "think" it means, friend." -
How do you think it will help then?

Because it will set you down the path of purpose. It will broaden your mind to existence. Imagine waking up one day to realize that your current goals are meaningless, and that effort thus far was for naught. Imagine a destruction of the constructed identity where free thinking prevails and limitation of a man is boundless. I answered "yes" to your question because jhana leads to freedom. The answer to your question was yes.


Quote from: Kayagata-sati Sutta (MN 119)
(The Four Jhanas)

"Furthermore, quite withdrawn from sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful mental qualities, he enters and remains in the first first absorption (jhana): bliss (piti) and joy (sukha) born from withdrawal, accompanied by applied and sustained attention (vitakka and vicára). He permeates and pervades, suffuses and fills this very body with bliss (piti) and joy (sukha) born from withdrawal. Just as if a skilled bathman or bathman's apprentice would pour bath powder into a brass basin and knead it together, sprinkling it again and again with water, so that his ball of bath powder becomes saturated, moisture-laden, permeated within and without -- would nevertheless not drip; even so, the monk permeates... this very body with bliss (piti) and joy (sukha) born of withdrawal. There is nothing of his entire body that is not pervaded by bliss (piti) and joy (sukha) born from withdrawal. And as he remains thus heedful, ardent, and resolute, any memories and resolutions related to the household life are abandoned, and with their abandoning his mind gathers and settles inwardly, grows unified and centered. This is how a monk develops mindfulness of the body.

"And furthermore, with the stilling of applied and sustained attention (vitakka and vicára), he enters and remains in the second jhana, with bliss (piti) and joy (sukha) born of tranquility, unification of awareness free from applied and sustained attention (vitakka and vicára) and with internal assurance. He permeates and pervades, suffuses and fills this very body with bliss (piti) and joy (sukha) born of tranquility. Just like a lake with spring-water welling up from within, having no inflow from the east, west, north, or south (1), and with the skies supplying abundant showers time and again, so that the cool fount of water welling up from within the lake would permeate and pervade, suffuse and fill it with cool waters, there being no part of the lake not pervaded by the cool waters; even so, the monk permeates... this very body with the bliss (piti) and joy (sukha) born of tranquility. There is nothing of his entire body not pervaded by bliss (piti) and joy (sukha) born of tranquility. And as he remains thus heedful, ardent, and resolute, any memories and resolutions related to the household life are abandoned, and with their abandoning his mind gathers and settles inwardly, grows unified and centered. This is how a monk develops mindfulness of the body.

"And furthermore, with the fading of joy (sukha), he remains in equanimity, mindful and alert, and physically sensitive of pleasure (piti). He enters and remains in the third jhana, of which the noble ones declare, 'Equanimous and mindful, he has a pleasurable abiding.' He permeates and pervades, suffuses and fills this very body with the bliss (piti) divested of joy (sukha). Just as in a lotus pond, some of the lotuses, born and growing in the water, stay immersed in the water and flourish without standing up out of the water, so that they are permeated and pervaded, suffused and filled with cool water from their roots to their tips, and nothing of those lotuses would be not pervaded with cool water; even so, the monk permeates... this very body with the bliss (piti) divested of joy (sukha). There is nothing of his entire body not pervaded with bliss (piti) divested of joy (sukha). And as he remains thus heedful, ardent, and resolute, any memories and resolutions related to the household life are abandoned, and with their abandoning his mind gathers and settles inwardly, grows unified and centered. This is how a monk develops mindfulness of the body.

"And furthermore, with the abandoning of pleasure (sukha) and pain (dukkha)-- as with the earlier disappearance of elation and anxiety -- he enters and remains in the fourth jhana: purity of equanimity and mindfulness, with neither pleasure (sukha) nor pain (dukkha). He sits, permeating the body with a pure, bright awareness. Just as if a man were sitting covered from head to foot with a white cloth so that there would be no part of his body to which the white cloth did not extend; even so, the monk sits, permeating the body with a pure, bright awareness. There is nothing of his entire body not pervaded by pure, bright awareness. And as he remains thus heedful, ardent, and resolute, any memories and resolutions related to the household life are abandoned, and with their abandoning his mind gathers and settles inwardly, grows unified and centered. This is how a monk develops mindfulness on the body.

I don't want to detour you, and perhaps its a natural process better left observed. In my perspective, jhana will help you broaden your perspective, and that in turn, can help you in the most profound way. Above I posted a copy of Kayagata-sati Sutta (MN 119) that was translated by Jhananada. It can help you in discerning your meditation experience, in concern to Jhana.

The path itself starts with the Noble eightfold path, and an understanding of the 4 Noble truths.

Thank you for listening to my rant ^.^
« Last Edit: October 16, 2015, 12:35:01 AM by Cal »

Jhanananda

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Re: Subconsious programming in Jhana?
« Reply #4 on: October 16, 2015, 02:09:47 AM »
As I have mentioned in my introduction post. I want to be able to develop the jhanas to apply them in daily life to excel in career and relationships. One of the major problems I have right now is limiting beliefs. I tend to have limiting beliefs that make me feel that I am not good enough and not worthy of good things. This manifests strongly in my love life and at times can cause me a lot of depression. I don't know where these feelings came from as I come from a loving household but they are there.

Cal's response was quite good so I will try not to cover the important points that he made.  However, I will tell you my career with jhana led me through a 40 year technical career in a number of disciplines, getting married, and fathering children, who grew up to be reasonable functional people in the world. So, there is no reason why you cannot do the same thing.

While you may have come from a wholesome family, I did not.  I too had very poor self esteem, but I found I shed all of my neuroses through simply meditating 2-3 times per day to depth.  So, if I can, then you can as well; because I was not born of a virgin, nor do I walk on water, but I am free of addictions, neuroses, and attachments for the world.

Will developing a jhana practice be able to help me change internal beliefs and become the kind of person I want to be? If so how would I proceed about this? Do I enter deeper states of meditation and visualize or affirm positive statements?

As I said above, yes you can be radically changed for the better by cultivating deep meditation practice.  Here we have discussed the methodology several time. 

1] One begins by practicing a meditation technique at least twice a day, for at least 30 minutes per session.  Increasing the time, as one grows accustomed to long meditation practice.  The most common method that those who have success in deep meditation practice is breath observation.

2] There are two goals to become skilled with. 1) Learning to relax deeply while meditating. 2) Stilling the mind.

3] Do not get attached to your meditation object because it is just a vehicle to deep meditation.  So, when deep meditation begins, then be prepared to dump the meditation technique.

4]  The stilling of the mind is where the meditation technique comes to an end.  Here one just sits savoring the pleasantness of a still mind.  And, no, there are no visualizations or positive affirmation statements. More follows in response to your questions.

My current meditation practice is 1.5 hours straight in the evening after work. Is this a good amount of time? I can probably add in one or two more smaller sessions in there as well. I feel myself going deeper the more I meditate but am not experiencing the levels of bliss I have read about yet. However I do think I am closing in on the first jhana.

Your 1.5 hour session at night is quite good.  I assume you are doing it just before bed.  You could add in a session in the morning upon rising, because I found bracketing my day with meditation sessions helped me.

EDIT: From what I have read the charisms are pleasant sensations that arise during meditation right? And once you feel it you focus on it until it grows?

Correct.

When I started meditating a long time ago I would feel a pressure on my forehead between my eye(third eye area). Sometimes as my concentration increased this would spread to all over head. This is not pleasant nor unpleasant so I am not sure if I should consider this a charism? Should I focus on this pressure and let this grow? Also sometimes I feel a cool peaceful feeling inside my head. It feeld like a cool breeze flowing through my head. Could this be considered a charism?

Yes, the pressure on your forehead between your eyes (third eye area) is a charism.  Yes, it can grow to cover your face, and head, and entire body.  And, yes, the cool peaceful feeling inside of your head is also a charism.

Yes, you focus your attention while meditating upon these charisms when they arise.  When you become skilled with attending to these charisms during your meditation sessions, then you may find these charisms present during the rest of your day.  This is a good sign of development, and if you can keep them present throughout the day, then you will find your meditation sessions will become deeper.

If these charisms do not feel blissful to you, then you have not recognized the significance of the charisms.  In Acts in the Christian Gospels various phenomena are described.  They are called by the Greek term 'charism.'  They are often translated into English as 'sign gifts.'  In the Christian Gospels they are the signs of the Holy Spirit.

In Buddhism the charisms are called 'jhana-nimitta' and 'samadhi-nimitta.'  These terms mean "signs of absorption," which is the 8th fold of the Noble Eightfold Path.

So, your reaction to the arsing of these charisms should be to feel that you are blessed by the presence of god, as experienced in samadhi.  After all so few Christians and Buddhists have these experiences that you are truly one in millions to have such experiences.  But, don't get puffed up about it.  Just feel blessed when they arise, and you will be giving proper honor to your interior experience.
« Last Edit: October 17, 2015, 02:00:46 AM by Jhanananda »
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guilotine

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Re: Subconsious programming in Jhana?
« Reply #5 on: October 16, 2015, 05:35:37 PM »
Thanks Cal. I understand my goals may seem small and insignificant to people further down the path. This is one of the reasons why I was hesitant to start posting here. I am open to the idea that I may lose interest in these things as I develop in jhanas. If that happens then so be it. Until then I approach jhana as a way to enhance my daily life.

Jhanananda -  It is interesting you say that I should let go of the meditation object once I achieve stillness. How would you know how much stillness is enough? I have achieved states where I feel that my mind is a lot more still than usual however I have never achieved complete stillness. However I always stick with the meditation object and force my mind onto it even when my mind is quite still. I am wondering if this is an obstacle to entering jhana.

As for the pressure in the third eye, I started feeling it as soon as I started meditating when I was 14. I have felt it almost daily since then until the present (I can feel right now as I type this). For many months I even used it as my meditation object but I didn't get anywhere with it so I switched to the breath a few months ago. It seems sad that I have been experiencing what could possibly be a charism for 15 years and yet I am still not even able to enter the first jhana(Although I feel I am closer now than I have ever been).

My 1.5 hour session is usually at around 7pm. I sleep at around 12 and if I wait till then I feel tired to meditate. I am thinking of adding a 30 min session right before bed. I have a very hard time meditating in the morning because I have never been a morning person and usually wake up in a rush to get to work. I do morning meditations on the weekends though.

As always thank you both for your advice.

Zack

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Re: Subconsious programming in Jhana?
« Reply #6 on: October 16, 2015, 07:12:02 PM »
Your goals seem modest, so I wouldn't worry, or even worse judge yourself, about them too much. You don't sound like you're chasing wealth and fame and hoarding mass amounts of property. Myself, I could really go for a better way to make money to support my basic necessities than the awful wage labor I'm stuck in, and would probably function better with someone to physically talk to and share with and trust, and wouldn't mind getting laid again, so I'm not in much different of a position. I may be more and more aware of the deeper currents behind these desires, and realize they are meaningless in the grand scheme of things, yet they still play out in my being. The drive to go after them is basically deflated, however; but I'm also not a fool enough to think I've transcended them in any huge way. Dormant or repressed is not the same as transmuted, and I'm sure there's still deep pockets of animal instinct in me yet.

If I was presented with the opportunity for a relationship I wouldn't judge myself if I took it, I would just know it wasn't something to be gaining ultimate fulfillment from, and I would be uncomfortable if it was with someone that had much attachment to that idea in themselves, or wasn't willing to examine it. There's also the distinct possibility it won't happen, as my health, lifestyle choices, and the pull inwards put me in stranger, less socially-acceptable positions, and I'm increasingly ok with that.

Transformation is slow. Meet each day on its own terms because that's really all you can do anyway.

Cal

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Re: Subconsious programming in Jhana?
« Reply #7 on: October 16, 2015, 08:14:57 PM »
Thanks Cal. I understand my goals may seem small and insignificant to people further down the path. This is one of the reasons why I was hesitant to start posting here. I am open to the idea that I may lose interest in these things as I develop in jhanas. If that happens then so be it. Until then I approach jhana as a way to enhance my daily life.

Hmm yes, I was aggressive in my response, and I apologize for that. I had not meant to offer that I thought your goals small, or insignificant. They are not small nor insignificant, they are both reality and necessity. Again, I do not wish to detour you. I look forward to seeing your progress.

Zack, great points. You reminded me of the importance of slowing down, and just being present, thank you.

guilotine

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Re: Subconsious programming in Jhana?
« Reply #8 on: October 16, 2015, 08:23:28 PM »

Hmm yes, I was aggressive in my response, and I apologize for that. I had not meant to offer that I thought your goals small, or insignificant. They are not small nor insignificant, they are both reality and necessity. Again, I do not wish to detour you. I look forward to seeing your progress.

Zack, great points. You reminded me of the importance of slowing down, and just being present, thank you.

No need to apologize at all. My response may not have been that great. I understand where you are coming from.

Jhanananda

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Re: Subconsious programming in Jhana?
« Reply #9 on: October 17, 2015, 02:17:27 AM »
Thanks Cal. I understand my goals may seem small and insignificant to people further down the path. This is one of the reasons why I was hesitant to start posting here. I am open to the idea that I may lose interest in these things as I develop in jhanas. If that happens then so be it. Until then I approach jhana as a way to enhance my daily life.

Honesty is valued here; whereas pretentiousness is not.  So, it is good to know what you are starting here with.

Jhanananda -  It is interesting you say that I should let go of the meditation object once I achieve stillness. How would you know how much stillness is enough? I have achieved states where I feel that my mind is a lot more still than usual however I have never achieved complete stillness. However I always stick with the meditation object and force my mind onto it even when my mind is quite still. I am wondering if this is an obstacle to entering jhana.

The question of how still is still has come up before.  It was Michael Hawkins who brought up the wave phenomena, in which thoughts seem to arise and fall away in waves.  So, we are not busy with a stop watch counting units of time in between thoughts.

The trick is to shift your focus to the stillness, when the stillness arises, verses forcing your meditation object to the front when the mind may have stilled.

As for the pressure in the third eye, I started feeling it as soon as I started meditating when I was 14. I have felt it almost daily since then until the present (I can feel right now as I type this). For many months I even used it as my meditation object but I didn't get anywhere with it so I switched to the breath a few months ago. It seems sad that I have been experiencing what could possibly be a charism for 15 years and yet I am still not even able to enter the first jhana(Although I feel I am closer now than I have ever been).

If you have been meditating for a number of years, and you are meditating at 1.5hrs/day, and you are observing charismatic phenomena, then by definition you have arrived in some level of jhana.  I would suggest that you go back to observing the charism at your third eye as your meditation object, and learn to value it as sacred, and keep tuned for more stuff to arise, and do work on relaxing deeply, and stilling your mind while you do so.  When the mind becomes still, just allow your attention to remain upon the charism, while you also enjoy the still mind.

My 1.5 hour session is usually at around 7pm. I sleep at around 12 and if I wait till then I feel tired to meditate. I am thinking of adding a 30 min session right before bed. I have a very hard time meditating in the morning because I have never been a morning person and usually wake up in a rush to get to work. I do morning meditations on the weekends though.

As always thank you both for your advice.

Just follow what works for you, and if you can make some changes in your lifestyle and practice that enhances your experience of deep meditation, then feel free to do so.
There is no progress without discipline.

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