Different Levels of Arhat?

[guilotine]

I have been wondering about this for a very long time but haven't found anyone who could give me a clear answer. In Buddhism we learn that enlightenment is the end and once one achieves that there is nowhere left to go.

In the story of the Buddha we come across different people who attained enlightenment who seemed to have different status than other enlightened beings. For example the Buddha himself is seen as having supreme wisdom second to none and has a better understanding of the universe than any other being(This is what we were taught in school).

Then we have Sariputta whose wisdom was second to only the Buddha and one of the two chief disciples. The other chief disciple Maudgalyana had psychic powers second to none (except the Buddha of course). So my question is -

Besides being respected for being the teacher and leader, how was Siddhartha Gautama superior to his enlightened students? Is a Buddha a higher level of attainment? Wouldn't this mean that Arhat isn't the end?

How did Maudgalyana  have better psychic powers than other enlightened beings and Sariputta more wisdom that would enable them to have a higher status in the ranks over other Arhats?

Are there levels to even being an Arhat that would make this possible?

Or this could all be propoganda created to glorify things and impress the masses.

[Cal]

I have been wondering about this for a very long time but haven't found anyone who could give me a clear answer. In Buddhism we learn that enlightenment is the end and once one achieves that there is nowhere left to go.

In the story of the Buddha we come across different people who attained enlightenment who seemed to have different status than other enlightened beings. For example the Buddha himself is seen as having supreme wisdom second to none and has a better understanding of the universe than any other being(This is what we were taught in school).

Then we have Sariputta whose wisdom was second to only the Buddha and one of the two chief disciples. The other chief disciple Maudgalyana had psychic powers second to none (except the Buddha of course). So my question is -

Besides being respected for being the teacher and leader, how was Siddhartha Gautama superior to his enlightened students? Is a Buddha a higher level of attainment? Wouldn't this mean that Arhat isn't the end?

How did Maudgalyana  have better psychic powers than other enlightened beings and Sariputta more wisdom that would enable them to have a higher status in the ranks over other Arhats?

Are there levels to even being an Arhat that would make this possible?

Or this could all be propoganda created to glorify things and impress the masses.

Very interesting. Now while I cannot speak to the specifics of the Buddha, Sariputta, and Maudgalyana. As when I read their stories I recognize that they were far beyond me. I believe i can offer some insight. But I am also curious what the others will say to this.

Aptitude and sensitivity. I see the differences between us here, some of us can be more sensitive to certain aspects of the religious experience, while others more apt to discern in another.  This could be a quite in-depth topic as well, as it delves into the individual psyche. All of us process information in a different way, within similarities. There seems to be an almost infinite aspect to the immaterial. I gather this information from flashes, intuition, and what I've read here. (Mostly what I've read) So I speculate that Maudgalyana rested in intuition (Raw input) and most likely mastered his discernment of it. Where Sariputta rested in detail (Reflected upon input) and most likely mastered his discernment of it. Yet there is something I am missing in this, because in both descriptions I have provided, they are the same. It may be the depth in which it was reflected...idk Jhananada, perception is not removed? Perhaps its reflected upon?   

[Jhanananda]

Good question, guilotine, and I agree with you, one should always be aware that mainstream religion tends to be more about propaganda created to glorify their teacher and impress the masses.

On the other hand, I came away from reading the suttas through several times that, in addition to both of these disciples most importantly being free of the fetters, Sariputha was more about critical thinking, and possibly an excellent memory for the teachings of Siddhartha Gautama; whereas, Muggalana seemed to be more about determination and rigorous practice.  I see that all of these skills are requisites for genuine attainment.

Siddhartha Gautama was more about having been of course free of the fetters, but also had the ability to pull together the most cogent and logically true philosophical system on record, as well as the clearest and most concise description of the mystical experience on record.  This means he most assuredly negotiated the entire package to fruition; whereas, both Sariputha and Muggalana just got free of the fetters, by most probably mastering just the 4 jhanas; whereas, Siddhartha Gautama most assuredly mastered all 8 stages of samadhi, which does have added advantages.

So, what I got out of the suttas is, arahat is free of the fetters, but Buddhahood has full fruition and mastery of the superior fruit.

[Jhanek]

This is very good question indeed. I bet that every1 looks for the answer.

I just found a youtube video on this subject and I am listening right now, but it is hard to understand. According to it Buddha became Arhat by 8th Jhana experience however he still found himself impure. To remove defilements he was a) observing breath b)observing sensations inside the body c) observing thought process ( I understand he reached nirvikalpa samadhi or other special-rare samadhi and was working for a long time with it? ).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N_OW9RcxyUc

The idea of Buddha being able to clean himself bases on his previous 7 lives since stream-entry. He had, according to what he said himself,
7 good lives.

[Jhanananda]

The fact that Siddharta Gautama was able to describe all of the superior fruit of attainment (maha-phala), which no one else was able to do in his day, or before, suggests to me that he was the real deal.

It suggests further that homever composed the video in question is likely to have never had a single experience of the superior fruit of attainment (maha-phala).  And, if he is quoting a sutta, then consider that not all of the suttas were composed by Siddhartha Gautama, or an enlightened person.

Conclusion:
We need to learn to view, listen and read critically, if we are interested in enlightenment in this very lifetime.

[Jhanek]

Conclusion:
We need to learn to view, listen and read critically, if we are interested in enlightenment in this very lifetime.

Thanks for your reply Jhanananda. Do You think I should make a list of main suttas and read all of them by myself not using unknown source materials?
How do You know which suttas are reliable sources? I mean, You are investigating the subject for decades but I need a tip to even start.
Where should I start?

[Jhanananda]

My research has shown that all religious literature has problems with its translation into English.  So, I have retranslated key suttas into English.  I am calling them the Phala Nikaya. 

My impression from reading a number of suttas that discuss arahats, is mastery of the 4th jhana resulted in one being accepted as an arahat; whereas, there are 4 more stages of depth in meditation, which might make the difference between an arahat and a Buddha.

[Tad]

A couple related questions to this subject.

How far is arahanthood from 4th jhana?

Why are some yogis that get 4th jhana and meditate for years do not attain arahanthood? What is the lacking ingredient?

[Jhanananda]

This is a good question and I know we have addressed it before somewhere here, but I am limited for time so I am just going to shoot for the hip.

1) So few people even talk about the jhanas, and certainly so few Buddhist priests will even discuss them, then I am inclined to believe 99% of all claims of jhana attainment are probably fiction.

2) If I recall correctly there is a sutta quote that states attainment of the 4th jhana is sufficient for arahatship.

3) Most of the suttas that discuss the stages of samadhi only refer to the 4 jhanas.

4) However, the suttas that discuss liberation (vimokha) most of them list all 8 stages of samadhi before discussing liberation, and from my experience I traversed all 8 stages of samadhi and found the 4th jhana consistently every time I meditated and immediately upon sitting in meditation, so I'm inclined to believe that all 8 stages of samadhi are necessary for full liberation.